Marvel Avengers Alliance - Game over

[CrashTextDummie]

My Bulba town read was because I thought his gut town on me was a cop inno. Obviously this isn't the case, so that's where I'm going to start.

Are we talking about the same Bulba here? The one who insisted that his null-town read was more null than town? The one who expressed strong town reads, among which you weren't? The one who never really argued against your wagon, even when you were at L-1? You thought

he

had an innocent result on you?

[CrashTextDummie]

My sense of humor is a little stunted right now.
Please clarify this.

We have daytalk.

[jasonT1981]

Day 4 Vote Count 3

Smargaret 1 - T S O,

Not voting

PeregrineV,
CrashTextDummie,
Bulbazak,
BROseidon,
Thor665,
smargaret,

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

(expired on 2014-04-20 15:11:00)

till Day 4 Deadline

[Bulbazak]

Who is TSO's partner, me or Smargaret?

I don't know. It depends on if TSO is willing to bus at this point or not.

[T S O]

TSO, when did you stop paying attention to this game? It must have been a while ago if you think that no one has been paranoid/suspicious of Thor and that no one other than you has suspected Smargaret since early D2. Why did you town read Pere and myself yesterday?

I don't know, CTD. I just don't know. Even though I'll admit myself I haven't been quite as engaged in this game as I'd like, I still worry. I was townreading you and Pere individually. In fact, I still am. I backed you up when Thor was calling you scum individually. I've never even entertained the idea of lynching you, at any stage. But your claim is rather shady. I don't remember noticing that you and Pere were townreading each other at all; I don't particularly remember any form of helpful interaction between the two of you. In fact, there's nothing at all I can remember about your stances on each other. I think that Yiley replacing out and posting that "PV is probably not-scum" is ambiguous as fuck - it's so vague I'd almost call it a scumtell He has no stances regarding his Mason either, noticeably. As well as this, Yiley's attitude for an apparent Mason is fucking horrible. Who acts disinterested, bored and scummy as a Mason? It's a very, very odd stance. Nothing adds up. Nothing at all, CTD, and I've actually seen scum use this exact tactic to coast to victory, so I don't buy for a second that scum can't use this.

Do you think my suspicion is justified? I can't see how you wouldn't.

Here's my rebuttal; This is a Mini Theme.
Please link me as many mini themes as you can find with 1 town PR and a horde of VTs vs. a scum team with a PR in it.

I'll have a look, I guess, though I have next to no idea about Mini meta. I'm just using my gut and intuition at the moment.

I probably wouldn't be so tickled by this if you complaining about set up possibilities that you deem "unfair" to scum weren't so oddly familiar.

It's familiar? What do you mean?

. Believe me, my major gripe is over the mod not taking advantage of the theme of Marvel superheroes when designing the game, not any hypothetical Masons.

WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE GRIN GRIN. /__-

Good one, Bulba.

My Bulba town read was because I thought his gut town on me was a cop inno. Obviously this isn't the case, so that's where I'm going to start.

Are you fucking kidding me? Really, smargaret?

I want to see why you thought this, now, because I cannot understand why you would.

[T S O]

Who is TSO's partner, me or Smargaret?

I don't know. It depends on if TSO is willing to bus at this point or not.

is this a joke?

I've been "willing to bus" since day 2. I've had exactly one scum suspect for 2 days straight, and it's smargaret.

This is such a cop-out answer where you don't want to risk getting on anyone's bad side. Call a spade a spade, Bulba.

[T S O]

My Bulba town read was because I thought his gut town on me was a cop inno. Obviously this isn't the case, so that's where I'm going to start.

Are we talking about the same Bulba here? The one who insisted that his null-town read was more null than town? The one who expressed strong town reads, among which you weren't? The one who never really argued against your wagon, even when you were at L-1? You thought

he

had an innocent result on you?

This, I guess, is the main reason I'm not really going after the Masons - because smargaret is practically confirmed scum.

My sense of humor is a little stunted right now.
Please clarify this.

We have daytalk.

Are there any examples you can use to prove this?

[CrashTextDummie]

Do you think my suspicion is justified? I can't see how you wouldn't.

No, I don't think your suspicion is justified. I'm contemplating whether you dropped on your head overnight and are suffering from amnesia. Cause if you are town, you must have. You don't remember that Pere has been pushing Smargaret just as long as you have. You don't remember that I had significant suspicions about Thor. You don't remember that I strongly questioned Smargaret's read on Pere. You don't remember that I flat out told Thor that his read on Pere was bad. You don't remember that I flat out said that Pere was town. You don't remember that his read on Pere was a pretty damn significant part of our argument, in which I strong defended Pere.

Yiley's stance on Pere was not ambiguous. It was the only stance he ever had in the entire game. Yiley and zakk had a combined total of 4 posts in the QT. I don't know why they didn't care but your theory of "masons would care" is simply wrong.

Since apparently you don't remember anything I did all game, again i ask you why you town read me.

[CrashTextDummie]

Are there any examples you can use to prove this?

Why should I? The notes I took on Thor games which have been the focus of so many Thor/CTD walls were posted in our QT to get Pere's opinion. Other than that, I don't think I can help you with this.

[T S O]

You don't remember that Pere has been pushing Smargaret just as long as you have.

I remember that, and that was one of the reasons I was townreading Pere, but I don't understand its relevance towards this argument.

You don't remember that I had significant suspicions about Thor.

Again, I do, but why is this relevant?

You don't remember that I strongly questioned Smargaret's read on Pere. You don't remember that I flat out told Thor that his read on Pere was bad.

No, I don't, you're right.

My problem with this is that there's no real difference between buddying scum and Masons in this scenario.

You don't remember that I flat out said that Pere was town. You don't remember that his read on Pere was a pretty damn significant part of our argument, in which I strong defended Pere.

Again, it's the above. If you two had this planned out, there is no difference.

Yiley's stance on Pere was not ambiguous. It was the only stance he ever had in the entire game.

It WAS ambiguous, and I defy you to tell me it wasn't.

I don't know why they didn't care but your theory of "masons would care" is simply wrong.

Do you have evidence that Yiley is apathetic as Town? He's usually not. At all. And if he rolled a Mason...

Since apparently you don't remember anything I did all game, again i ask you why you town read me.

You came in, agreed with all my opinions and voted smargaret. That was all I needed.

[CrashTextDummie]

It's familiar? What do you mean?

In Maniacal Street Mafia, after 3 neighborhoods were outed, the theory was floated that the blue mafia team (which I was part of) could have more than one neighbor and Bulba shot it down because that would be unfair to the red mafia team (which he was a part of). It's the main reason why I (and several other players, though not enough to get him lynched) caught him as scum, not just because it revealed his knowledge that red scum had only one neighbor, but also because thinking in terms of "unfair to scum" usually speaks to a scum mind set.

His offense here isn't as bad, because the more significant component (inside knowledge) is missing. But when I saw his argument, I could picture a thought bubble along the lines of "after our rolecop died, I tried desperately to kill the power roles I thought for sure were in the game to no avail! What, you're saying there may not be any significant power role in the game?! Inconceivable! For sure at least Bro's role has to be in the game. Otherwise I would have been duped."

[T S O]

And I'm trying to stay calm and not go into a fuckwall, which is my usual reaction around this time, but it's hard. You SHOULD have evidence that you and Pere are Masons! You should have been talking to each other and it should be obvious as hell through changes in your stances, through questions, through SOMETHING. What were you doing in your damn QT, talking about your dayjobs? Why didn't you crumb? Why is there nothing except your word to confirm your role?

What did you discuss in your QT during the day? During the night? Did the two of you change each other's reads in any way? Anything? Earth calling the Masonic Order? Come in, Captain!

Why don't you want to convince me? I'm here, and I really want to believe you. I hate being paranoid, and I'm actually angry I even HAVE to be paranoid! I'm asking you questions, I'm not walling myself off, and your response is "Wow TSO, you don't believe us? Really? FUCK YOU!". That's what it amounts to, CTD! Do you want me to scumread you? The way you're going about your play today it damn well feels like it. I know I'm paranoid at power; I smashed myself up the ass in Fire Emblem: Awakening because of my power paranoia but I was right; gut told me I was right when head said I was wrong and penguin_alien eventually got caught due to just that. I haven't even done my readthrough because I'm putting it off. I don't want to check your stances because I don't WANT to find ambiguities, I don't WANT to find faulty stances, because I felt today this game was all wrapped up. We lynched smargaret today, her scumfuck head rolled down the gallows, we all cheered and then we arise at dawn, nail her scumpartner, bang bash bong we're done, game over. Now your claim has me overthinking everything.

But go ahead. Give another dry, sarcastic post to me reaching out to you. That'll work, right? He's trying to understand us? Is it possible? Nah, fuck him, he's worthless anyway!

[CrashTextDummie]

I remember that, and that was one of the reasons I was townreading Pere, but I don't understand its relevance towards this argument.

I'm the only one in this damn town who's been pushing her the whole game.

Again, I do, but why is this relevant?

It's occurred to me that no-one whatsoever has entertained the possibility of Thor being scum.

Again, it's the above. If you two had this planned out, there is no difference.

There's been consistent mason play over all of Yiley's, Pere's and my ISO. Who do you propose planned this out?

It WAS ambiguous, and I defy you to tell me it wasn't.

It wasn't ambiguous. Unless you want to call the fact that he didn't just say "guys, I'm Pere's mason" ambiguous.

Again, he clearly wasn't paying attention to the game at any point during his stay, as evidenced by

a complete lack of opinion on anything, ever

, and yet he managed to deposit a Pere town-read at a time where even Thor in his deepest "Yiley was scum" craze conceded that he was checked out.

Here's my problem with you, TSO. You were town reading both of us. We claim mason, the highest possible risk fake claim (even more so because we went first in the massclaim). Our play is consistent with us being masons. I literally see no reason whatsoever why you would freak out like this. You haven't even touched on the balance implications of what you're saying. "I've seen it happen before!" is not a reason. I see nothing in this game that would trigger such a reaction. And I can easily see why you would do this as scum.

Simple yes or no answer: Do you think this game would be balanced if we were lying about our claim?

[Bulbazak]

I probably wouldn't be so tickled by this if you complaining about set up possibilities that you deem "unfair" to scum weren't so oddly familiar.

It's familiar? What do you mean?

He's referring to Maniacal Mafia. His argument is that since the same argument was leveled at me when I was scum in that game posting setup spec, then I must be scum in this game. What he's failing to mention is that I was scumhunting as well, since there was a second team. And that setup spec, which he kept trying to discredit with that argument, is what caught him as scum in that game.

. Believe me, my major gripe is over the mod not taking advantage of the theme of Marvel superheroes when designing the game, not any hypothetical Masons.

WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE GRIN GRIN. /__-

Good one, Bulba.

Don't make me hit you with my hammer.

Who is TSO's partner, me or Smargaret?

I don't know. It depends on if TSO is willing to bus at this point or not.

is this a joke?

I've been "willing to bus" since day 2. I've had exactly one scum suspect for 2 days straight, and it's smargaret.

This is such a cop-out answer where you don't want to risk getting on anyone's bad side. Call a spade a spade, Bulba.

And this is what makes me so unsure. The WIFOM is thick here.

[T S O]

I ...don't know, CTD. It all depends on remaining power for scum.

If they were a RoleCop + 2 Goons, then I'd have a little theory of my own, but revealing it would be helpful to scum.

I'm starting to think you two are Town after all and it's smargaret and Thor or Bulba.

BROseidon, quit lurking.

[T S O]

I don't even know what I think - I'm gonna go shut up, think, then un-shut up.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm struggling with this game, main reason being that I don't have anything close to resembling a solid town read on anyone in the lynch pool and I can't really rule out any pairs (this, by the way, is what Pere and I have spent the most time on in the QT, trying to form town reads we could both agree on). Not much has changed for me since yesterday. Bro is cleared in my mind, but he was low on the suspect list anyway. Apart from that, I'm mostly in the same place I was yesterday.

For Thor, Bulba, Smargaret, things have dramatically changed. All three had suspects exclusively among the now claimed power roles. This is only really reflected in Thor's play. He's not exactly fervent in his current pushes, but he has clearly shifted gear and is looking at the puzzle as it presents itself now. Bulba is hung up on Set Up spec. Smargaret has nothing to offer. Her sole remaining suspect is off the table and she has to go back to square one on the drawing board. I think that speaks volumes about the actual depth of her scum hunting. Things didn't dramatically change for TSO, but he's freaking out anyway.

The problem with Bulba's and TSO's play is that casting doubt on the claims is not what I'd consider smart scum play. It's not needed (there are enough potential mislynches still among the claimed VTs to win the game), it's futile, it antagonizes the people that have arguably the most power over their fate. Thor's play, which to reiterate I think is the most pro-active and pro-town out of the four post-massclaim, is what I'd actually expect smart scum to go for. Smargaret is sitting on the middle ground of actual scumminess.

For the two actual VTs, this shouldn't be too complicated. Set-up paranoia aside, they're looking at 3 other players, one of which is town and two of which are scum. That's easy to sink your teeth into. Yet three of the four aren't really doing it. For the two scum, the situation is actually pretty precarious. Bussing is strongly discouraged and yet it's critical for them that they don't tie themselves together today. It's clearly advantageous for them to survey the landscape first before committing to reads, and it feel like that's what's happening with this set-up discussion.

So yeah. I need the lynch candidates to start actually discussing the people they're sharing the lynch pool with.

[Thor665]

Vote: Smargaret

It's a lot of answers regardless.

[CrashTextDummie]

Thor is the only remaining suspect who was on the Zekrom wagon. If Thor is town, no one was bussing him. I find that rather unlikely.

[Thor665]

I, sadly, am forced to agree - but it is what happened.

[BROseidon]

Any breadcrumbs from any of you?

@BRO - justify your thinking behind your defense choices please.

No crumbs.

Nights one and two I protected you for a few reasons. First, you were a consensus town read, which meant you were likely to draw a shot. Additionally, you have a reputation that precedes you.

I switched to CTD night 3 because over the course of that day phase I grew to have a stronger town read on him than you. If you were scum, a CTD shot seemed likely. If you weren't scum, a CTD shot still seemed possible.

[BROseidon]

It bugs me that he fullclaimed though. Why not try to draw the kill and make scum waste a shot?

Blocking a shot doesn't do much at this point, since we end up on an even number.

[BROseidon]

Also, if I were scum, I'd shoot a mason over a BG.

[BROseidon]

@Thor: I've stated repeatedly that I feel Bro's role is enough to justify the role cop by itself. I've never said that I'm convinced the Mason claims are fake. I actually said I'm pondering it. I've actually made it very clear that we should lynch outside the masons today (hence my TSO vote). If we nail scum, then the masons are clear and we have 3 conf. town. If we don't, then don't give them a pass during Lylo due to the claim alone.

10:3 with me as the only town power is very scum-sided.

[Thor665]

Thor is the only remaining suspect who was on the Zekrom wagon. If Thor is town, no one was bussing him. I find that rather unlikely.

Here's the extent of my reasoned rebuttal beyond 'look at my play'
Let's lynch Smargaret - if I'm wrong and she's town then it's pretty reasonable to want to get goofy and lynch me and though I'll fight it you'll have a strong case.

If I'm right, then I think it helps show I'm town because, the theoretical case on me being scum playing 'smart' is that I'd have gone for the two mislynches, and it's clear I went for Smarg first. That would mean that my 'smart' play was not smart scumplay, but simply smart town play, as their would be little value in playing nice nice to the PRs *and* choosing to bus, since that defeats the purpose of being nice to the PRs.

Make sense?