Tales of You (Endgame)

[AngryPidgeon]

wtf are all these posts about.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

You’re effectively saying, “I see town and scum reasons for taking this action, and with no consideration as to which it is, I’m going to decide on one because ~reasons~.”

Purple Cow Grape Sky Shark Fan Book

...

Oh, sorry, I thought this was the part where I ignore what you're actually saying and spout a bunch of nonsense.

I think I quite literally explained it to you in the simplest possible way I could, because I understand people have learning difficulties and I see that you're slow on grasping easy concepts. I am not sure how much simpler I can explain it. If you still don't understand the point I'm making, I'm just not going to bother.

Or I’m town doing a thing that I do regardless of alignment?

You people suck at reading null actions as null.

See, you'd probably have a point about it being a null action if you took away all context of the game and gamestate. Most things can be called null actions if you do that. But generally mafia players use their heads (*gasp*) to discern which actions have meaning and which don't!

I see you pushing the gladiator claim for no reason other than it being a gladiator claim, and I think about why you'd do this as town, and I come up short on explanations. And since you aren't providing explanations, I can only assume it's because you're not thinking and instead just going through the motions you think you'd go through as town.

BECAUSE IT WAS A NULL ENTRANCE FOR REASONS YOU’VE ALREADY GIVEN.

Why did you start reading AP as town?

I’ve given the tl;dr version like 1000000 times, which is that your head is so far up mastin’s ass it hurts.

So your argument is that because I have a strong town read on mastin and our reads align, I'm scum

And you think this is a reasonable argument

Rest of your post is a load of shit, not going to waste time responding to it.

Oh. Except this part.

I’ve requested the mod to warn you for the second time this game because of this post.

Spoiler:

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Why did you start reading AP as town?

Also, not asking why you have him as town now, but why you had him as town initially, because #1019 and #1020 suggest you had him as town as early as that - which means you had him as town off his entrance and the following 10 or so posts.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

AP's obvtown from his entrance.

Also this suggests you were reading him as town from his entrance, so that would mean you were reading him as town off something you're telling me I should be reading as null, even though I explained quite clearly why I thought it was more scummy than null.

Unless his entrance encompasses all his initial posts except his actual entrance, in which case, do explain.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I just find your claim's alignment null even if confirmed and was curious as to what your thoughts about it was.

If you think us claiming hated, miller, gladiator was possibly a scum ploy of sorts, so be it, I guess?

[Red Gyarados]

I'm trying to remember a time you tunnelfucked someone like this and weren't scum.

Didn't Mastin tunnelfuck the shit outta Yates in Street Racers?

Anyone with Rancid as town has reason to strongly believe me as town.
Anyone with AP somehow as town (they really shouldn't) has reason to strongly believe me to be town. (Heck, even if they think AP's scum they should still be thinking me town anyway. )
Anyone who has BOTH as town (although they're wrong on AP) should also have me as essentially conftown, since AP and zMuff are the only two players I can think of off the top of my head to instinctively, 100%, "get" me and never misread me.

:/

I don't know why, but I just hate it when you say stuff like this (even if I know it should be a thing).

So I want to talk about each of the players in more detail.

As a warning, there's basically nothing here that I haven't already said. But basically...the main reason they're scum is that they haven't been posting as town. There's a lack of sincerity in their posting, especially in their shallow scumhunting. Their posting is manipulative rather than analytical, and they're playing reactively rather than proactively. Additionally, their posting is largely buddying. Know what's really part of the reason they're scum? A lack of provocation. Of safeness in their posting. The closest they come to it is in their dismissive posting, which itself is, well, scummy.

I pulled up their iso, and I'm seeing all of this, quite strongly, throughout their posting, in basically every section of the game. That lack of true, well...effort, for lack of a better word. There's nothing in there that is remarkable. Just stuff meant to look good that vaguely points people in directions that are beneficial to them.

I really can't describe it better than that.

I don't really remember what you've been saying about this slot, but I have been wondering why people were townreading them aside from their sincerity-oozing post (which I entirely skipped over because I don't give a shit about other people's self-meta). I don't remember anything they're really tried to accomplish other than wondering why people weren't townreading them and pushing those who weren't.

Granted I could be due for another re-read or at least an iso of them, but I really don't remember what they've done (granted, I have been ignoring them, but it's mostly because most of their posts feel flat to me). I'll do it tomorrow. That iso is intimidatingly long.

What should tell me that THIS time I should subsume my reads and follow yours?

Nothing. His reads were largely terrible in Street Racers, but he was still town.

{Tammy} Near the top of my townreads. Something about them just feels like town. Not obvtown. That's a different feeling. But...still town.

This has been Notty's rock this game and although I don't have her as super glaringly obvious town, I do have her as strong town.

Instead of seeing a town-AP, I'm seeing an AP-pretending-to-be-town. The actions he do vaguely look town. The words he says vaguely sound town. But how they're done, how they're said, simply...doesn't. I really really wish there was a better way for me to describe the mechanic between AP and I, the dynamic we've had. But this is the best I've got. His posting has been sketchy, with all of it essentially...well, not being the strong AP I know. The best word I can think of to describe it is that it feels halfhearted, rather than sincere, but even this doesn't convey the message.

I'm still conflicted about this read of yours onto AP. I'm having trouble seeing him as scum and I might be due for a re-read.

Mac's basically right up there at Titan levels of town. His posting's simply town; it's pretty dang obvious. If there's anyone here who doesn't have a townread on Mac, maybe I'll be bothered to explain. But basically...his posting is town. It's really obvious.

I thought you said Titan wasn't obvtown for you.

/end Mastin's reads

Will finish tomorrow.

[Red Gyarados]

I just find your claim's alignment null even if confirmed and was curious as to what your thoughts about it was.

If you think us claiming hated, miller, gladiator was possibly a scum ploy of sorts, so be it, I guess?

I'm honestly not even paying attention to the hated/miller part. I just don't see how gladiator and age cop couldn't come from scum, even in tandem with each other.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I'm honestly not even paying attention to the hated/miller part. I just don't see how gladiator and age cop couldn't come from scum, even in tandem with each other.

We're in a Cabd game. I'm told there are no roles that couldn't come from scum. If you're reading someone based on their role, you're doing it wrong.

[CarbonFiber]

Hey Brian, while you are still here, I'd like to hear your thoughts on meta-dive on DV. I also think a lot of what you are seeing as flat comes from DV's personality, as someone mentioned, he gives off a friendly vibe which can often be misinterpreted in mafia games if people consider aggressive = town, etc.

Their "sincerity-oozing" post wasn't really bad but that's not why I'm townreading them. I townread them because the way they are pushing their reads feels town and matches up with what I expect of DV as town.

~ F-16

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I'm honestly not even paying attention to the hated/miller part. I just don't see how gladiator and age cop couldn't come from scum, even in tandem with each other.

We're in a Cabd game. I'm told there are no roles that couldn't come from scum. If you're reading someone based on their role, you're doing it wrong.

Though in saying that, this is a Cabd game, and we claimed hated, miller, gladiator on the first page, so I mean, unless you think I'm playing completely counter to how I usually play as scum (i.e. safe), it should be pretty obvious from context that we're town here.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

1872: so now is when I press you on your early townread of me. How did that diminish, or was it just never as strong as you suggested?

[Red Gyarados]

If you're reading someone based on their role, you're doing it wrong.

Well, I'm not. And I don't remember ever saying that I was.

Hey Brian, while you are still here, I'd like to hear your thoughts on meta-dive on DV.

I don't meta-dive people. I only do it as a last resort (i.e. my meta-dive on Slimer was because I was concerned she was lynchbait and my reads as a whole weren't very good).

But since you're so concerned about it, I'll take a quick look tomorrow.

[CarbonFiber]

It is up to you if you want to look at his meta. My post was in response to your saying that you were wondering why people were townreading the Fox and the Hound and you seemed to want to discuss that read.

~ F-16

[Red Gyarados]

Though in saying that, this is a Cabd game, and we claimed hated, miller, gladiator on the first page, so I mean, unless you think I'm playing completely counter to how I usually play as scum (i.e. safe), it should be pretty obvious from context that we're town here.

I've never seen you as scum. So I don't have a clue what you'd do differently as either alignment. And I'm not one to go off trying to build town and scum models of players. The meta I use on players is very very basic and I like to keep it that way.

[Red Gyarados]

It is up to you if you want to look at his meta. My post was in response to your saying that you were wondering why people were townreading the Fox and the Hound and you seemed to want to discuss that read.

I do actually. But tomorrow when I have a better idea of what that slot has been doing this game.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Then I don't really understand why you keep talking about my role if you think it means nothing in regards to my alignment.

[MastinSSK]

Guh. I suck. There are things I should be doing, and here at 3 am, all I can think of to do is to get caught up.

Its not like Im married to this mastin vote, there simply isn't interest in people I want to lynch.

And this is why AP is scum.

A town-AP.
Never.

Never.

NEVER.

Would default to lynching me. If a town-AP has no attachment to voting me,

AP votes for some other player

. Because he gives the benefit of the doubt, because he loves playing with me, working with me, because he thinks I'm a valuable player, even if I have been having bad days. Yet here, he's explicitly saying he's not attached to it. That the vote isn't strong. Yet he's kept it there.

You will never find a game with a town-AP where he does this with me. You can find it in some of his scum games, though. (Not all, of course; it is not a universal scumtell for him. But it IS a scumtell.)

This is basically the main attitude difference between a town-AP and a scum-AP. That fundamental divide in mindset, where a town him will always have that respect, and a scum-him will not, essentially.

You arent doing anything worth working with.

Oh, I've done plenty. My reads will never be as solidly grounded in logic as those of others. I wish they would be, but I can only do it as scum. (And stopped doing it as scum because it became a scumtell.) But I have explained things. I have given reasoning, shown my perspective, and bluntly, raised some damn fine points that are there to be read by others. And I continue to do so. I'm not rehashing the same old points over and over again. Each time, I'm bringing new things to the table, or an alternative way of explaining the things at the table already.

And, yes. My game has been off its mark, at least partially as of recently. But not entirely. I've been mediocre, not trash. So treating me as trash is a very bad idea. My reads aren't trash. I'm probably not a scumhunting goddess. I probably haven't named the entire scumteam. I'm probably not even close to having them nailed down. But I'm also probably not entirely wrong. I'm also probably on the right track. I'm also probably more right than wrong overall. That's been true for my play in every single towngame of mine--decent, but not stellar.

So, yes. I have plenty to worth with. Both in reads and in reasoning.

And yes welcome to me and mastin in games.

IN WHICH OUR DYNAMIC IS NOT SOMETHING TO BE CASUALLY BRUSHED ASIDE.

Actually just welcome to me. My reads have been more on the tame side compared to like street racers >.>

While this is something you'd do as either alignment, and the opposite is true as either alignment about equally as well, you

do

have an

overall

tendency to SLIGHTLY (ever so slightly) have your "tamer" games be scumgames, AP.

Okay. How's this. I think I finally have it. The scumtell that describes AP. AP's scumtell is, put in simplest terms, "You can't

prove

I'm scum, nyehnyeh."
And that's what he's doing.

Except when Katsuki does the same thing literally two posts before this, you don't call him on it, despite it being what of a universal psychological trick?

Not sure I understand? Katsuki most certainly hasn't taken a "you can't prove I'm scum, nyehnyeh" attitude, and even if Katsuki had, this is a scumtell for AP specifically anyway.

What I really don't get is you having Titan as a strong townread based off of

my

post.

Umm, she's not? She was town before that, off of essentially (for lack of a better term) gut. My read on her hasn't changed since I made the readslist (well, over the course of 16 posts anyway), where she nearly topped the townlist. You joined her as an equally-strong townread; you didn't cause her to join you as one.

I feel like you are trying to get those votes.

Well, I am. Not necessarily on AP, but on someone, someone who actually has a chance of being scum, yes. AP's my preference, of course.

You did waver in your townread a bit but I'm still having trouble understanding how you actually believed the stuff you posted early game.

It's not exactly hard to understand; I fail to understand how people don't understand. I saw Titan as not being obvtown, but being manipulative. When you came in and buddied her, I saw similar. SSK actually being active at the time and sharing similar thoughts to me helped, too. Basically, there was something that felt weird in your interactions, and I thought at least one of you scum because of it. (My Fox/Hound read got tied into there, too, though I forget why.)

Wow.

ns's vote on me looks terribad if mastin flips scum.

Yeah, so did Esp/Molla's voting patterns when I flipped scum in House Party.
...Oh. Wait.

(Normally, I wouldn't make this type of heavily snarky post. But admit it, BRO deserves that. )

[MastinSSK]

(Okay. So I technically started the post closer to 3:15. Butyeah. Close to 3:45. Really need to get some sleep, here, so this is it.)

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Mastin, I see in this game the strongest and smartest players who've ever played. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire town in-fighting, essentially policy lynching; slaves with horrible reads. Scum has us chasing red herrings and scummy-looking town players, pushing lynches we hate so we can see flips we don't need. We're the middle players of history, Mastin. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's getting scum lynched... our Great Depression is reading F16's posts. We've all been raised on Mafia Discussion to believe that one day we'd all be paragons, and best town performance winners, and the second coming of Glork. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

[The Fox and the Hound]

For starters, 383, unless I'm completely blind, contains no reference to RBD. Secondly the case itself was filled out by nonsense. A matter of opinion is their first reason ("we think Tammy towned it up before RBD, therefore RBD is scum") which comes around six or seven hundred posts before they actually present it as a case.

I don't think this is fair because every scumread is a complete matter of opinion, so arguing that our (or in this case my) opinion is inferior is not something I appreciate.

I'm not going to ISO you. I can tell you why I think you're scum off the top of my head. All your pushes this game have come from a place that doesn't make sense from a town perspective. Your mastin push is a really good example of this (I am still not sure why you actually think mastin is scum when they're really obviously not and I see you using the excuse that you always think mastin looks scummy to hide behind in the same way you did in Xenosaga) but all of your other pushes come from a place that makes just as little sense. The vote on me? What the fuck was that bullshit? Honestly. Like wow. I know it was the DV head but fucking wow. One of the most hilariously bad votes I've ever seen placed on me. And when I pointed out how fucking illogical it was, you guys just shrugged it off and said, "Nope, still not wrong!" Really. Fucking. Town. Of you guys.

First, I think I've been very clear about why I think mastin is scum so please don't complain about not knowing why if you're going to claim you know everything off the top of your head without ISOing us. And I think the suspicion of us is stupid too, but I'm not going to go on and on about how shit it is. I could go on a rant about your reaction to my accusation about your read on Titan when your read on us is equally opinion-based (which is entirely what I'd expect), but as I've probably implied, it'd be a pretty stupid endeavor. I'm willing to consider that you're town (Ceph still has you as scum though as far as I'm aware), but I'm not sure why you'd expect us to listen to you and worship you as the almighty, all-powerful rancid cheese when you're apparently confident that we're scum? HMMMM.

Regarding your townread on Mastin, you're welcome to share your reasoning for it if you want? But again why I should come begging to you for your wondrous insight is beyond me, especially since a lot of our read is probably based on the fact that mastin's pushing us-town. What I've read so far in favour of mastin-town though has not changed my opinion either. If I only had a weak scumread on mastin then my attitude would likely be different, but this is not a weak scumread and I'm not going to do my usual thing anymore of letting my lack of confidence (sssshhh you didn't hear anything. Mastin's scum ) prevent me from pushing a scumread, especially when I have someone who I can 100% trust the sincerity of that agrees with me, PLUS others who I think are likely town and respect the opinion of that agree with me to some extent. So if you're town, to be completely frank, I ask that you get off your high horse and actually consider that your reads might not be the hottest thing out there, because I can say with 99% certainty that they're not (the remaining 1% is because I actually forget what our role is so maybe I've repressed the knowledge that we're scum even though I actually like being scum and Ceph is just humoring me. Idk!). If you're scum... well... just continue doing what you're doing I guess because I'd imagine it's a lot of fun.

Not completely caught up. Will hopefully get to it tomorrow.

[PeregrineV]

OK. Good for you! But guess what? I'm only answering questions I deem necessary to answer. So I'll make you a deal here and now. For every question you ask me about my role, I'll find an interesting youtube video and post it as an answer - disclaimer: my answer may have absolutely nothing to do with your question, but I hope this doesn't matter!

Not really sure what the point of quoting all those posts is, given it's consistent with what I have already said about my role; i.e. that I will only give information that I deem necessary on a need-to-know basis.

But good work avoiding the crux of my questions to you. In what way would knowing the answer to the question you asked help the game, in any way, shape or form?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go


http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=22826

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I think I've been very clear about why I think mastin is scum so please don't complain about not knowing why if you're going to claim you know everything off the top of your head without ISOing us.

So summarise these reasons or point me to them. I'm not going to go looking for something I think isn't there.

Regarding your townread on Mastin, you're welcome to share your reasoning for it if you want?

I could explain it, but I don't think it would make sense to you, so I'm not sure what you're expecting here. I tried explaining to Nati how I read mastin, and then I read my explanation to Nati, and decided I would just never explain it publicly. Ever.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

OK. So ctrl+F "mastin" in your ISO shows me the closest you ever came to giving reasons for the mastin read were 1315 and 1344 (the latter of which i'm including even though it could only be called "reasoning" very, very, very loosely).

Am I correct in assuming this is it or is there more you just haven't talked about at all in thread?

Since 1315 appears to be the crux of your reasoning, is this an accurate summary:

- Mastin should have voted AP, but didn't (let's ignore the fact that mastin's vote will never count on a wagon that goes to lynch and assume this means anything)
- Mastin suspects you

Am I missing something here?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Ironically,

You guys had better reason to think I'm scum than to think mastin is scum. So technically you should still be voting me, but you aren't.

That would make the point about AP somewhat hypocritical.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

1872: so now is when I press you on your early townread of me. How did that diminish, or was it just never as strong as you suggested?

It hasn't changed. You're in the town group. I haven't forced an order onto the subgroup lists.