MS Fantasy Camp 2: Reaper's Tale! (Finished!)

[Shadoweh]

The problem with meta discussion is half the game doesn't seem to like meta, and the other half is too busy not looking at meta. If you want interaction in this game you apparently gotta call it out yourself.

I am null on you (Shadoweh) but I really did skim this game and I am going to re-read more closely and probably read a few of your games before we come to a conclusion.

You should read #Yoloville if you really want to go that far. It even has your other head in it, plus I spend a few days feeling pressured by constant suspicion from everyone. I can't remember the last time I was this mad though, tbh.

[Katsuki]

nacho/ffery - early thoughts on venmar?

I think Nacho will have a little time for this game tomorrow. I was expecting to have more time as well, but we'll see how it goes I guess.

I have never played with scum-Venmar, and it's been a while since I did a meta scan. So, I have a town-Venmar model that's probably a little sketchy and no scum-Venmar model at all. Nacho and I recently helped get him mislynched in a PoE situation where we both really thought he'd looked pretty town earlier in the game. To me, in this game so far, Venmar is coming off pretty similar to Xenosaga in tone, level of involvement, etc.

But, to a large extent I depended on Nacho's meta read in that game, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Nacho sees an issue or two that I don't.

However, it will surprise me quite a bit if Nacho changes his mind about Katsuki given what he's posted this week.

Does Empire have an opinion on Venmar?

TOWN NACHO WOULD TOTALLY BE TOWNREADING ME
NOT TEEHEEING A KATS LYNCH

LOOK AT YOUR OWN PLAY
IN NATIS MINI 1543
I FUCKING CALLED YOUR SHIT OUT WHEN YOU COULDNT RESIST MY BAIT

[Flipping Awesome]

I don't want you to meta dive so I can read you, I want you to meta dive so I can read others.

I am really curious why you didn't comment on my analysis after you basically asked for it.

I've decided on my own prerogative that Flipping Awesome gets added to my Town spreadsheet, tentatively until his other half is confirmed to be playing and not locked in a basement for fear of making scum posts.

What's your follow up on this? Your read development on us was one of the things I found hazy and I was hoping you could articulate your thought process more clearly once you heard from Penguin.

but actually Cerulean's early posts are super bad so I really just want to keep my vote where it is because it's actually scum guys

Elaborate on why. Have you played with either head before?

even the katsuki vote, flawed as it is, looks town to me

Why is it flawed? Are you townreading Katsuki? If so, why?

Have you just not played with Nacho or something? He's pretty boring as scum.

I'd like this explained as well in a meta-context. What is your experience reading Nacho.

Pedit: Okay, start by explaining your Nacho read to me while I catch up. I want to know why you said Nacho's scum game is "boring" and almost writing them off as town so easily when Nacho is at least decently skilled as scum that it would take a little more time to read him unless you know exactly what you are looking for.

[Shadoweh]

I wouldn't say it's developed, to be honest, partially because you've been out of the loop for so long. Out of the townreads I have I think you're the weakest. Looking back and re-evaluating I think you're the most likely to be innaccurate. Sorry, that's probably not what you wanted to hear.

I don't know how to explain that, Nacho as scum imo tries to flood a bunch of quote walls that are too boring to read. I'm specifically thinking of him in that game I just linked you actually. I just think Town-Nacho is really obviously Town-Nacho. *shrug* I haven't seen anything from him to make me think twice about it.

[Nero Cain]

also everything you said about me =/= scum, being "wrong" (which, lol, i still don't think I was) isn't a scumtell

What's the pro-town motivation in miscategorizing the Kats lynch?

I have a town read on Kats
I have kats town meta that suggest its town
I have a scumread on a player voting kat

The seem like the only pro-town reasoning for you to be against a kats lynch and you had none of these so....poo-pooing away a lynch 'cause its a "policy lynch" despite no one even calling it a policy lynch or voting kat 'cause we don't like it.

Listen, I evaluated it as a policy lynch because:

says the piece of lynchbait that's going to lurk all game.

Here you call Katsuki lynchbait for being likely to lurk?

WHO THE FUCK
POSTS FULL READ LISTS
ON PG FUCKING FOUR

someone that's not a useless troll.

Here you insult him for "being a useless troll."

fuck a no lynch, lets kill this.

vote:Katsuki

And.. this is where you vote Katsuki. Okay, so how do you expect me to deduce you are voting Katsuki for anything but him possibly lurking or being a troll? This kind of matches my skimmed evaluation of you voting him for being annoying, and these reasons you said seem to fit criteria for a policy lynch. Okay.. well lets see what else you said after the vote?

this game is pretty boring so far. Kat having no content and instead just screaming and yelling would make for an excellent day 1 lynch. Would not be surprised if Nacho was bussin here.

moar kat votes plox.

Sounds like lynching Kat just for being annoying to me?

Kats has done like jack shit so I feel that's self explanatory.

Good job Nero.

SO HOW THE FUCK, AM I SUPPOSED TO COME TO THIS, GAY, FAKE, FUCKING CONCLUSION:

Other than the unreasonable snarky attitude he's flat out wrong. Sangres voted Kats in 174 and then in 216 heavily implies that she does not like Kat's reaction. My vote on Kats in 201 is 'cause well its not doing anything at all and how the hell can you have a town read on that beyond meta? + I know that Nacho busses and I'm perfectly fine with lynching their buddy. LLD's vote came after Kats reaction so I assumed it was for that but I mean saying "oh you guys are lynching Kat for being Kat and also policy" is defending Kat while not having a town read seem totes scum-motivated.

HOW AM I WRONGLY DISCATEGORIZING YOUR FUCKING GODAWFUL PEICE OF SHIT VOTE WHEN YOU SEEM TO HAVE VOTED KATSUKI EXACTLY FOR THE REASONS I SUSPECTED? GO. DIE.

holy fuck

im done

im done

vote: nero cain

learn to play this fucking game

OH BOY!

If I can go theoryish here for a second, there's a thin line between policy and "oh mah god this is soo bad and I want it dead 'cause this could very well be scum." Kat is in the later pile. Even if you thought I was voting kats for policy (despite saying

"Would not be surprised if Nacho was bussin here."

I mean really, how stupid are you?) once I told you that I was not voting Kat for policy why were you not all "U B LYING,Nero!!!"? Were you waiting on me to pounce on your bullshit so you could throw a hissy fit and try to get town read? That's what it looks like to me. And well, now that you know Kat isn't getting pled it kinda destroys your whole reason for avoiding that wagon...so I want to know what you think about Kats. But no need to worry about me since no one is going to sheep me even though I found scum.


I know part of this crap play is trying to play like Ma Jiffy but If this is your town play, stick to modding, bro.

[chamber]

I want so many things to die .

[sangres]

I am really curious why you didn't comment on my analysis after you basically asked for it.

I don't think Nacho's been back to this thread since you posed your analysis.

[Zdenek]

or you just dont understand how i play, or the meaning behind the shit i am saying

Well, maybe, could you let me in on it?

Tierce knows how to play mafia. Vi knows how to play mafia. Why is it that their hydra can't? And is using some weird dog fursona.

^scum.

I am unable to properly generate sufficient non-sequiturs to reply to this in the manner I would prefer. No, it doesn't bother me. Why should it?

I thought I'd conveyed that, so why don't you just tell me why you think it's townie.

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 1, VC 22

Tim Howard - (2):

Zdenek, Katsuki

Sixty - (1):

kanyeknowsbest

Katsuki - (2):

sangres, Flipping Awesome

Venmar - (2):

Nero Cain

, Untrod Tripod

Shadoweh - (4):

ChannelDelibird, chamber, Cerulean, Nobody Special

Zdenek - (2):

Tim Howard, xRECKONERx

xRECKONERx - (2):

Sixty, Lady Lambdadelta

Nobody Special - (1):

Plum

Nero Cain - (1):

Venmar

Untrod Tripod - (1):

Shadoweh

Not voting - (0):

---

With

18

alive it takes

10

to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1:

26th of April at 5pm

Irish Time - countdown: (expired on 2014-04-26 12:00:00)

[/area]

Prodding kanyeknowsbest

[Sixty]

I *do* believe that Reck is more than likely town though.

Empire is pretty strongly in the Venmar is scum camp.

Do tell.

@ Sixty, falling asleep is part of our role.

Hide your drugs! We're dealing with a narco over here!

[Venmar]

or you just dont understand how i play, or the meaning behind the shit i am saying

Well, maybe, could you let me in on it?

read xenosaga, pukk up my wiki page from my signature and check out my latest town games. this is how i behave as town.

[Venmar]

Even if you thought I was voting kats for policy (despite saying

"Would not be surprised if Nacho was bussin here."

I mean really, how stupid are you?)

YEAH, OKAY, LISTEN FUCKHEAD, THIS IS BULLSHIT AND LYING, YOU KNOW WHY?
1)

I don't really have much of a case on Sangres other than gut/that early no lynch vote was dumb and some other reasoning I rather not go into right now. And mmmaaaayyybbbeee bussin' Kat.

BECAUSE YOU SAID THIS THE SAME POST YOU FUCKING EXPLAINED YOUR READ, WHICH IS AFTER I MADE MINE.
2) that is the worst reason i have ever seen to vote for someone, because you think someone else was bussing them... before you even have a flip... and considering the busser would be the better vote..THATS DUMB, NERO, DUMB.

once I told you that I was not voting Kat for policy why were you not all "U B LYING,Nero!!!"?

thats what im doing now smartass

Were you waiting on me to pounce on your bullshit so you could throw a hissy fit and try to get town read? That's what it looks like to me.

WOW, YEAH OKAY, DESPERATE STRAWREACHING SCUMFUCK DETECTED

And well, now that you know Kat isn't getting pled it kinda destroys your whole reason for avoiding that wagon...so I want to know what you think about Kats. But no need to worry about me since no one is going to sheep me even though I found scum.

lol, you shouldn't be surprised that people don't listen to you after all of this. i think kat is town because of this, you're still essentially scumreading him for policy/annoying reasons whether you want to admit it or not.

I know part of this crap play is trying to play like Ma Jiffy

im not trying to play

as

majiffy

nero, this game is becoming a clockwork duplicate of the game you and i had long arguments and despite you using the most retarded reasoning that i proved, like in this game, i flipped town. you do this bullshit every game and each time you think you are godsent from heaven with the mandate of being able to read venmar. get over yourself.

[Zdenek]

or you just dont understand how i play, or the meaning behind the shit i am saying

Well, maybe, could you let me in on it?

read xenosaga, pukk up my wiki page from my signature and check out my latest town games. this is how i behave as town.

I don't care at all about you playing to what you think your town meta is.

I am interested in the meaning behind what you're saying and what you're trying to accomplish though.

[Cerulean]

Empire: paranoia or not on your first post, I don't trust those tactics (if in a select few, then not in you).

I was going to wait for Tim Howard to respond to the stuff I directed at them in #450 but I'm bored and I'm getting impatient so I'll just talk about my opening now. The purpose behind it is two-fold:
1) One of the things I learned almost immediately starting off here is that coming up with a townbloc and being able to suffocate the scum via PoE is a big deal. The whole point of me outing those townreads early is to try and see if I can start up the process soon so we can all work together more quickly (it helps that a bunch of us have played multiple games together). I haven't had as much time to put towards that as I would have liked due to a deadly combination of Hanabi addiction and a flurry of RL stuff this week but I have plenty of time to do it so I'm not feeling rushed.
2) The Tim Howard vote early on was half for pressure and half because I actually suspected them at the time. The sangres vote in particular by quadz was something that rubbed me the wrong way as he did a similar kind of thing with the elleheathen wagon in the ASoIaF UPick where he was my scumbuddy. It was something minor at the time but combined with the fact that both heads of that hydra are pretty readable when pushed, the vote definitely seemed like a really good way to speed up trying to figure out their alignment. After that, well, their collective activity level hasn't been great (especially now that their wagon has died down) and all of my other problems with the slot have been outlined in #450.

Blue is plausible as a Town color

This is my issue, and I don't see why no one else sees it?

I see it! (Hint: this is why I'm voting her, I thought she was pretty town before that post, too.)

We'll be around synching and all tonight, but in the meantime, someone asked if I'd played with Katsuki before. Yes, in Anything Goes, and while I paid more attention to mastin in that hydra (where they were scum) nothing here is inconsistent with scum-Katsuki, so I'm not inclined to ignore his lack of scum hunting. I also recall him being more relevantly engaged under an alt in Mini 1551, so I believe in his ability to play in such a way as town.

My understanding of Katsuki's meta is completely different. In fact, I'd wager him being more into scumhunting is more likely to come from him as scum (you should read this game and let me know what you guys think). Every time I've seen him play as town, he just openly and blatantly doesn't give much of a shit about the game and only really responds directly to the people who accuse him (aka, the Benmage meta). There's a huge difference in activity level as scum too - in Anything Goes, he was constantly in the midst of things and on top of the game. I'll dive more into his stuff after this weekend when I get some more time, but this is what I have on a superficial review of his games.

I *do* believe that Reck is more than likely town though.

Empire is pretty strongly in the Venmar is scum camp.

Do tell.

I talked with Tammy a bit about Reck and she told me that she thinks Reck doesn't sound at all like her Red Wedding scumbuddy in this game and I can see why just in terms of effort level. She told me that's what she was trying to suggest when she thought he was scum at first since he was just kinda mailing it in and being super lazy but now that he's trying a bit she doesn't really feel that way anymore.

As far as Venmar goes, uh...frankly, I don't really get why you guys don't see it? I've already outlined most of my issues with the slot in #362 but I just wanted to add that he's sure spending a lot of effort responding to/refuting every single one of Nero Cain's posts and none of mine, probably because Nero Cain's way easier to argue against and discredit.

I'm out tonight and tomorrow so I'll be back at some point Sunday night/Monday morning to work some more on this game.

[Venmar]

but I just wanted to add that he's sure spending a lot of effort responding to/refuting every single one of Nero Cain's posts and none of mine, probably because Nero Cain's way easier to argue against and discredit.

the difference is that nero infuriates me, and you on the other hand i just don't care about

[Tim Howard]

Re: Cerulean - I personally am uninterested in talking about our reads super in-depth atm. To be quite frank, neither of us are super-invested in this game right now. That should get less prevalent as the number of players decreases and the amount of information increases, but I wouldn't expect any Big Sexy Cases D1 (at least, not from me, and I wouldn't imagine Nexus feels differently).

In other news, I like Katsuki less and less as the game goes on. His Fate cosplay makes him frikkin unreadable, and while it may be in good fun, it's also something I think he would know makes him hard to read. I don't think it's unlikely to be a Kat-scum tactic.

Zdenek remains a better vote for the moment.

[Shadoweh]

nero, this game is becoming a clockwork duplicate of the game you and i had long arguments and despite you using the most retarded reasoning that i proved, like in this game, i flipped town. you do this bullshit every game and each time you think you are godsent from heaven with the mandate of being able to read venmar. get over yourself.

If he was scum he wouldn't be trying to read you. :/ This is why it doesn't sound like you think he's scum. Was he scum in this game you're talking about?

[xRECKONERx]

Second off, I never said UT was scum. I disagreed with two things:
1) UT implied the two heads of Tim Howard sat down in their scum-hydra-QT and decided, "Hey, I know! I'll be the good cop, you be the bad cop! It'll make people feel guilty about voting us!" which is not an actual conversation I think a hydra has ever had, ever, in the history of the game of mafia.

If I could prove this to be wrong, would you proxy your vote to me for the rest of the game?

there is literally no way that would ever happen shy of financial payoff

[chamber]

@shadoweh

I want to think you are town, really. Pretend I'm an idiot for a minute (or don't pretend if you already think it) and walk me through step by step what lead you to make the statement about his blue colour that I took issue with.

[Shadoweh]

Do you really want me to do this.
Do you not think that literally everyone is sick of hearing about Nero's blue color.
I have absolutely no faith that somehow, this time your nitpicking will decide "Shadoweh though Nero was an IC at first, but wondered why he was blue, then concluded that being blue was his joke-role, then thought that since her first impression was he was a real IC it was possible he could have convinced other people he was too if he had wanted to" is actually the thought process I had instead of being scum because ???

If you were seriously considering this you would complete the analysis:
Does this make sense for Town to say --> Maybe not
Does this make sense for Scum to say --> Not really
Is it possible Shadoweh was just throwing out her theories ---> Maybe
Could this be a non-alignment tell instead of SCUMSLIP OF THE CENTURY ---> MAYBE

[Katsuki]

HEY EMPIRE PA
SINCE YOU GUYS LOVE META SO MUCH
READ THESE
>.>b

[chamber]

Persistent nitpicking is basically how I play.

[chamber]

Here's the thing from my pov. When I opened my role PM my very first reaction was a sinking feeling of terror at the realization that I was scum. That bright red staring me in the face at the top of the PM, unable to see anything else. And then I read its exact contents, and the word friends made me doubt, perhaps this is the town faction after all! followed by the relief of reading the specifics of my role and seeing no scum buddies, then confirming with the OP of the thread. Rejoice, I was town after all.

I imagine several people had similar reactions to their PMs this game, perhaps some in reverse (those dirty scum lovers) but I really can't see anyone who had such a reaction continuing to associate BLUE with TOWN in this game.

[Shadoweh]

What color he was didn't matter, it was the fact he was colored on the votecounts at all. Well, it would have mattered if he'd been rainbow colored I guess, but a solid block of color usually means alignment confirmed. If your argument is going to be it's impossible for me to have been momentarily confused, I'm going to start answering you with swear words of choice again.

[Shadoweh]

omg chamber just implied the scum color is green clearly he is scum lets lynch him immediately.