Tales of You (Endgame)

[Breakfast With Sandy]

UNVOTE

[Just Sheep Us]

Scum-AP missing that CF was a miller is something I wouldn't expect from AP (he's one of the few players that doesn't mix up claims/gamestates/etc). ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT CF'S MILLER STATUS WOULD HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED IN THE SCUM QT, AS WOULD HAVE AP'S PLAN.

The all-caps part is pretty crux here. What you're trying to argue is that not only did AP botch a fakeclaim, but that 3 other members of the scum team all failed to correct him. That's not a thing that's going to happen.

Quoting this for reemphasis.

[PeregrineV]

Not seeing where you reached the Lord Business=obvious town conclusion.

It was during the gladiate...Like even Stalin was like "lol I guess LB IS obvious town". I dont see how I can be more clear about this.

You've totally cleared it up for me.

A single sentence made by a player clarified your read that was secretly hiding inside of you all three weeks just waiting to burst out.

I guess you owe Stalin a big thanks. Maybe buy him breakfast.

[Kagura]

Why does that make sense to you, I think there is a strong chance I was blocked..

Irrelevant now.

He didnt say jackshit when I declared intent to investigate him.

Or he, you know, didn't see it?

-b

[PeregrineV]

Scum-AP missing that CF was a miller is something I wouldn't expect from AP (he's one of the few players that doesn't mix up claims/gamestates/etc). ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT CF'S MILLER STATUS WOULD HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED IN THE SCUM QT, AS WOULD HAVE AP'S PLAN.

The all-caps part is pretty crux here. What you're trying to argue is that not only did AP botch a fakeclaim, but that 3 other members of the scum team all failed to correct him. That's not a thing that's going to happen.

Quoting this for reemphasis.

Fine, but your responsible for focusing him on the game and changing his newspaper.

Unvote.

[Kagura]

Irrelevant now.

Actually, I take it back, it's not irrelevant, it adds a minor bit of credence to the claim.

-b

[AngryPidgeon]

You started out with a fake report on CF to test if he was truly miller or not? You thought the three people you wanted to investigate are scummy? And now you are saying you were most likely roleblocked? How did you get an investigation result on Kagura (which the Mafia team chose to be investigated) if that was what happened in the first place?

I claimed an inno on F16 because I wanted to see who they'd react to it. I legitimately did not foresee this tidal wave of pitchforks rolling my way over what I figured would be an extremely transparent play once I clarified it.

Yes I've been calling Kagura and PV scum most of yesterday. Orcinus was a more meh read but I figured he'd be good to have info on given that he was in the spotlight yesterday.

I was almost definitely roleblocked.

I don't know? I followed up with Cabd a little when I saw it and he basically said he wasn't allowed to elaborate but that he could tell me that I "attempted" to investigate Kagura. So I dont know. I expected to not be told anything about my target if I were RBd given the wording Cabd originally sent me but apparently I -do- get that piece of information anyways. not that it matters, scum can just rtandomize their target for me if I am getting RBd anyways.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: MastinSSK

This vote will confuse Mastin.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ha. and there you demonstrate you have no concept of my scum game. Despite 167 even.

As scum I'm anything but cheeky. Someday I'll work up the nerve to try it.

Well Ive never really seen you as scum before so your meta defense is falling flat for me.

Yeah I know, none of the scum team wants to remember ny 167

And I certainly wouldn't say you have been cheeky for the mass majority of this game. Its mostly been you afraid to do anything and just following popular opinion on most of the playerlist. That is scummy.

This is false, but given your attention to detail I'm not surprised you think this. Pretty sure I was the first to declare Mac town, and swam against the current on RBD, GiF-before-hydra, and Fox&Hound.

P-edit: Why does that make sense to you, I think there is a strong chance I was blocked..

Id talk more about CF but its in my iso. He didnt say jackshit when I declared intent to investigate him. tl;dr: hes not a miller, hes lying and scum.

I still don't really understand why you flailed when that claim blew up in your face. If you knew he claimed miller you should have expected pushback and suspicion. It's the main thing that worries me about your current claim.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Orcinus. (Heck no, he gets no towncred for that claim. It's null.)

Thank you. I don't understand why he's getting free passes from all corners for doing precisely what anyone would do, with the possible argument that town would've been more likely to throw in two possible scum and let them fight it out for information.

Also, if anyone could think I'm still scum at this point, I don't know what to tell them. Like, I don't want to chalk things up to personal bias against me b/c I'm a dick, etc, but I'd be at a loss for any other explanation for anyone voting me at this point.

I totally have you down as scum don't worry. <3

Someone is going to have to remind me for the 140th time why we aren't allowed to lynch this.

And what's wrong with analyzing and scumreading at the same time?

Because

you offered to enter into a fucking 1v1 against me

. If you analyzed things and found them to be scum, sure. Battle. If you were analyzing things and were beginning to scumread me, you'd point it out but not risk it. Because know what a critical piece of logical, analytical play is? CAUTION. Which you have displayed the entire game. You've shown a lack of commitment to reads, being willing to reconsider them. Meaning that if you hadn't done your analysis? You'd have taken that stance on me.

Instead, you admit you didn't do the analysis...yet you also insist on trying to kill me anyway. From certain players, this might be normal. For a fucking self-admitted logical analytical player, it simply makes zero sense coming from town.

This point really struck me as I went through this back-and-forth. I felt like I was seeing town moments from Clyton within the argument (actually I daresay from both of you) but this really hit home for me. The motivation is there. I need to look at the rebuttal to this point again because I don't recall it.

Okay, then. Scenario. Orc's scum. He gets lynched and self-governs. He puts two obvtown players in.

What nonsense is this?

Scenario: Orci is scum. He therefore knows who is town and who isn't. He puts two

non-obvious

townies in. He also doesn't say in-thread that he's purposely gladiating a townread.

What happens Day 2?

Fuck all

.

What difference does it make? None except that he arguably gets towncred from putting you in the ring, maybe, but probably not. I don't understand why you think that decision is so important. Besides, what if he puts in LB and some other lurktownie? If Orc is ever lynched and flips scum, the surviving lurktownie becomes obvious town. I expect better logic from you.

Like. I thought about it. And there is no fucking way that CF wouldnt say jackshit when I declared intent to investigate a him, a MILLER.

So thanks for ruining his reaction to that, I still think hes just scum for declining to comment on the cop declaring intent to investigate him as a miller though. Cause thats not something a miller forgets.

Why did you claim a town result on him rather than a scum result? Wouldn't that get the reaction you were looking for?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ignore my last point, I just figured out the answer to my question.

[Just Sheep Us]

Yeah I know, none of the scum team wants to remember ny 167

AP flaked that game. I was playing AFB solo.

[Clyton]

You started out with a fake report on CF to test if he was truly miller or not? You thought the three people you wanted to investigate are scummy? And now you are saying you were most likely roleblocked? How did you get an investigation result on Kagura (which the Mafia team chose to be investigated) if that was what happened in the first place?

I claimed an inno on F16 because I wanted to see who they'd react to it. I legitimately did not foresee this tidal wave of pitchforks rolling my way over what I figured would be an extremely transparent play once I clarified it.

Yes I've been calling Kagura and PV scum most of yesterday. Orcinus was a more meh read but I figured he'd be good to have info on given that he was in the spotlight yesterday.

I was almost definitely roleblocked.

I don't know? I followed up with Cabd a little when I saw it and he basically said he wasn't allowed to elaborate but that he could tell me that I "attempted" to investigate Kagura. So I dont know. I expected to not be told anything about my target if I were RBd given the wording Cabd originally sent me but apparently I -do- get that piece of information anyways. not that it matters, scum can just rtandomize their target for me if I am getting RBd anyways.

Then one final question. I want to know why you thought Kagura was scum for the

most

of yesterday. Aside from people giving him conftown reads based on prior games, and overall null reads from other people based on his lack of activity, the scumreads on Kagura didn't become apparent until late Day 1, where he suddenly appeared in a weird timing (as CF and the neighbours discussed). If I missed something, correct me. But reference the very beginning post that you thought Kagura was scum for reasons, assuming it is not part of the late Day 1 phase.

[The Fox and the Hound]

If you guys think Im this stupid then I really REALLY cant help you.

I was hoping to catch CF in a lie about his role. And

yes I got a result on Kagura

.

VOTE: AP

[AngryPidgeon]

Yeah I know, none of the scum team wants to remember ny 167

I was on a streak of drawing only scum that ended with AG mafia and I just sorta flaked out of that game out of being depressed at having to be scum again.

This is false, but given your attention to detail I'm not surprised you think this. Pretty sure I was the first to declare Mac town, and swam against the current on RBD, GiF-before-hydra, and Fox&Hound.

Mmmm. My view on the matter may be skewed because of when I replaced in. I like to think I was at the forefront of the Foxhound and RBD and Mac reads.

I still don't really understand why you flailed when that claim blew up in your face. If you knew he claimed miller you should have expected pushback and suspicion. It's the main thing that worries me about your current claim.

WTF did you EXPECT me to do then? My initial reaction was to be upset that it was blown out of the water before I could so much as narrow my eyes menacingly at F16.

Why did you claim a town result on him rather than a scum result? Wouldn't that get the reaction you were looking for?

Actually that also occurred to me. I guess I didn't think this out too well, I don't know why I expected people to let him come in and do his thing. I was just astonished that no one corrected me yesterday when I was pretty deadset on

submitting a claimed miller for an investigative list

so I was sort of falsely assuming people would just go on the same way as if nothing interesting had happened and F16 might just accidentally roll with it.

[AngryPidgeon]

If you guys think Im this stupid then I really REALLY cant help you.

I was hoping to catch CF in a lie about his role. And

yes I got a result on Kagura

.

VOTE: AP

I was surprised to have gotten a target but "failed" because the wording of my PM sort of suggests that being blocked would NOT give me that information. So I sot of considered that a result and that is why I wanted to have Kagura check in before I claimed it,

I don't know? I followed up with Cabd a little when I saw it and he basically said he wasn't allowed to elaborate but that he could tell me that I "attempted" to investigate Kagura. So I dont know.

I expected to not be told anything about my target if I were RBd

[Clyton]

See AP, this is what I don't understand. What is the rationale for a roleblocker to RB you? If it is a town RB, why RB a claimed cop? Take the chance and use the information he provides (even with fake; importance being using it as an alternative guideline) while RBing other suspects with potential kill power. Based on the kill results, there were two kills, one obviously done by scum, therefore highlighting the importance of RBing the correct target rather than someone who claimed cop. If it is a scum RB, you outright stated the mafia can choose who you will investigate. They can manipulate in many ways possible with this. There is no gain for the mafia roleblocker to RB you.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

WTF did you EXPECT me to do then? My initial reaction was to be upset that it was blown out of the water before I could so much as narrow my eyes menacingly at F16.

For now, I'm working on the assumption this is a fundamental clash of mindset. Despite all the morph games, I'm not a gambiter and I don't think like a gambiter. And your gambit is so raw around the edges that my automatic reaction was "caught scum".

Tammy will appreciate the irony, since the rough-edged town-gambit that morph-cabd ran in a recently finished game garnered a ton of suspicion and in part led to our mislynch a few days later.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This is false, but given your attention to detail I'm not surprised you think this. Pretty sure I was the first to declare Mac town, and swam against the current on RBD, GiF-before-hydra, and Fox&Hound.

Mmmm. My view on the matter may be skewed because of when I replaced in. I like to think I was at the forefront of the Foxhound and RBD and Mac reads.

Are you implying that you think we're town? I don't recall this.

[MastinSSK]

And I'm still considering my reads on you.

The govern ability is a fucking gladiate. A 1v1 IN WHICH ONE OF US GETS LYNCHED. You offered to go into it. You're saying you were still trying to figure me out. Yet you offered to go what is essentially a death-match where one of us lives and the other dies. Which might be okay if you actually meant you'd be willing to self-sacrifice.
But you made it clear that you had a case on me being scum...
...While also saying you needed to analyze me...
...And also offering up to enter into a literal 1v1 where there is NO other options...
...While insisting that you're still being a cautious, logical player.

It doesn't add up.

Your attitude if different, I could see as coming from town.
Entering into a 1v1 and trying to figure me out, I can see as town albeit unlikely, because if you're willing to self-sacrifice, it's a good move. But you said you had a case on me, which heavily implies you intend to win the fight, and not bother figuring me out.
Entering into a 1v1 if you've already done the analysis and have a case makes sense--it means you fully believe me to be scum, and are willing to risk your life to prove it. Yet you claimed that you hadn't done the analysis, and now are also claiming you didn't have a read on me figured out.
Not entering into a 1v1 if you haven't done the analysis makes sense--you might have a case, but because you're not sure of it, you're not going to recklessly push it.

You're trying to claim three things simultaneously. That you thought I was scum, that you were trying to figure things out, and that you were willing to risk your life.
From a logical player, you can have two of the three. But not all three simultaneously; that's playing about as illogical as can be.

(Outside the spoiler since this is the most important bit.)

Spoiler: Clyton

Are you sure you got that statement right?

Pretty sure, you just were saying it earlier in your posting in fact. I quoted some of it before.

I was under the assumption that was how you always acted, not because you are frustrated to the point of giving up.

You were under the impression that CAPS LOCK RAGE and fullclaiming randomly were the norm for me?

I was compromised. Not a little. A lot.

Not a lot of people can differentiate if you were truly frustrated or you were enacting that strategy.

Hint: Rancid was one of them and is now dead. Kagura is another of them. Mac was no slouch, either.

You yourself admitted not to trust in the word of the person saying it, but in the words of others supporting it. And, well. Others supported it.

Kill you? No. I wish to understand you.

Bullshit. Maybe you're pretending to do so now. But you offered to fucking 1v1 me. As said, that doesn't come from someone trying to understand; that comes from someone who is trying to kill.

Yet how can you explain other people being so adamant about you being scum?

Already have. Basically, it boils down to them living in the past and extreme arrogance.

Unfortunately, people have already agreed that your role is not truly town-indicative.

Not the point I was making. The point I was making is that my role means I can't get nightkilled. Meaning that I can afford to keep pushing and pushing and failing...

because I cannot die, I cannot be gotten rid of, and I cannot be removed

.

A killer has yet to target you today.

Actually, about that. A killer might have done so already. I'm not going to elaborate for obvious reasons. Just something that I picked up, and if I was even remotely correct, they know who they are and why I know them and think that they shot me.

"The here and now?" Still references reads based on previous games on particular players (Kagura, AP, PV, etc.) and does not seem to be objectively reading them in the context of this game.

I'm not? The closest you can come to me having done that is Fox/Hound in Xeno, but even then, I wasn't using Xeno to read them. I read Fox/Hound, Rancid, Kagura, AP, and PV and so on and so forth on the here and now. I also described the generalities of their playstyles, and how I know them and they know me. All general things, not linked to a specific game. I even explicitly explained what I meant. That I reference the general, and that's how I think, and may have a recent game where that trait was strongest, but that I'm not using that game specifically; I still mean it generally. Which is still in the here and the now.

I doubt there were any frustration posts due to her consistency with his playstyle and thinking for this game based on her role, till near the end of Day 1 (not as apparent as RBD's though).

Town, scum, doesn't matter. I say I was frustrated, I was fucking frustrated. The reasons differ, the results do not. (I don't do fakerage. Fakerage is, well...faked. And blatantly obviously so. Now, granted. There are fewer things that tick off a scum me. There's a reason why at times, it was considered a towntell for me to lose my shit: because a scum-me when suspected has a "meh, whatevs" attitude and is okay with it since the players suspecting me are right; a town-me...doesn't. But there are things that can tick off a scum me. Most of them being personal, like a player insulting my competency, or being hilariously wrong about their scumread on me yet frustratingly right in spite of that. [Yes, a scum me gets royally ticked off at Right-For-The-Wrong-Reasons.] Or me having a legitimate scumread as scum and not being able to get them lynched. Things like that, as scum, will cause legitimate rage.)

Mastin did not know how to handle herself once her (supposed) role was claimed to the public.

No shit, sherlock. BP claimed BP. Will no longer be able to get shot at. How'd you handle that? It took me 'til today to realize that I can still be a pain in the ass for scum. (Also, it's a

really fucking bad idea

to claim to be BP when you're not actually a BP as either alignment, really.)

Although it is not a strong scumread, it is probably his 2nd strongest scumread based on his list.

Correct. I don't have many scumreads, and bluntly, I don't need to. Perk of my role, I suppose.

(This one is a fair general question, so is outside the spoiler.)

Why the push against PV?

Because he's my strongest scumread.


But seriously. It's partially (okay, largely) POE. It's partially that I'm not putting much stock in the case for him being town. It's partially that I'm not liking most of his posting. It's largely gut. But honestly, it's mainly sheeping Rancid.

lb was a retard and didn't no lynch

more after this quick aram game

And who, pray tell, put him in there?

And again, there's a dissonance via insisting RBD is town yet not taking their read on me into consideration.

Only in an alternate universe where townies are always right and mafia games are always short.

Look. I'm not saying you should blindly trust Rancid's read on me. That would be the alternate universe. I mean, I'd like to. I'd love to say that. But I'm not. It's theoretically possible for me to have fooled the players who know me best, I guess, especially short-term.

...But you're not even taking it into consideration. It's had zero influence over your read. You're discarding it, casting away that vital piece of evidence. Which was formed...over the course of nineteen fucking days. Not short-term by any stretch of the imagination.

Scenario: Orci is scum. He therefore knows who is town and who isn't. He puts two

non-obvious

townies in.

...And is removing a late-game mislynch, while potentially also making the survivor be obvtown in the process, costing him a second mislynch.

By putting in someone who is obvtown and someone who isn't with both being town, it's win-win. Obvtown lynched, an obvtown player got lynched. Mislynch got lynched? Mislynch got mislynched. It's the optimum scum strategy.

So ya I didnt even submit on CF.

I almost want to say that AP's competency as scum means he wouldn't bother trying to pull this stunt as scum and would only pull the derp-gambit as town.
Almost.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.
Butyeah. This is AP as scum. He's not going to pull a stunt like this as town.

[Kagura]

There is no gain for the mafia roleblocker to RB you.

Actually yeah -

This is really only true depending on the alignments of the other players besides me he chose, but I think scum directing the result onto me of all people in that group and not RBing him is a pretty sane choice.

And that makes it even more likely AP is town because of *reasons*

-b

[AngryPidgeon]

See AP, this is what I don't understand. What is the rationale for a roleblocker to RB you? If it is a town RB, why RB a claimed cop? Take the chance and use the information he provides (even with fake; importance being using it as an alternative guideline) while RBing other suspects with potential kill power. Based on the kill results, there were two kills, one obviously done by scum, therefore highlighting the importance of RBing the correct target rather than someone who claimed cop. If it is a scum RB, you outright stated the mafia can choose who you will investigate. They can manipulate in many ways possible with this. There is no gain for the mafia roleblocker to RB you.

Why wouldn't a roleblocker block me? Obviously Im not speculating that I was roleblocked by town, I think scum blocked me.

There is gain for the mafia to RB me though, a result is a result. Im actually slightly awed by this role as far as the balance/setup designer in me goes in that I cant quite place just how powerful I think it is, but it DOES return hard results still. Yes the mafia has more room for working around it (by forcing me to investigate less optimal targets, basically making full guilties unlikely or just killing someone on my list) but that still forces the mafia to make suboptimal kills or conftown someone that was in a shortlist in the first place. It makes complete sense for mafia to want to stop that. You spend most of your time spec'ing on why town wouldnt want to RB me..and I agree. Why do you think scum would have no motive to do it though?

[Clyton]

*even if fake.

@Fox, I can sum up my rebuttals here. But the expected response (that is inherently scummy) from me will obviously be "but I haven't revealed my full playstyle in a large game yet!" And that part is true. I gave my off-site mafia experience link, and if you look through some of the games, there were instances that I took gambits and risks because it was necessary. The necessary thing in my perspective is to get rid of Day 1's noise and establish the town on better ground. Yet in Day 2, the debates that happened in Day 1

somewhat

spilled over here.

I'll outright state that I will disregard my exercise to caution the next day if this day does not bode well for the town. I'll softclaim that my role is partly an informative type, and I will use this information to my resources.

Realistically, no one can prevent that however if it wasn't for the revelation of orc's role and his adamant intention to put two non-obvious townies against one another. I've done my best to quell the noise coming from Mastin in regards to confronting me, but for others like PV, JSU and possibly CF, they see differently and will probably continue the push.

[Kagura]

Why do you think scum would have no motive to do it though?

They have less motivation to do so than they do a regular cop.
It is also a role madness game, which means they could RB an unknown entity in lieu of one they know they can control.

-b

[AngryPidgeon]

Are you implying that you think we're town? I don't recall this.

Uhhh? Ive been townreading you most of yesterday, I dont see where you got the impression I was doing otherwise.

I don't see how I could've made 592 as scum. I would have had to fake my thoughts on Mastin to look like I'd posted them in a hydra QT two days prior and I don't go to those kinds of lengths as scum.

Wait, people think this is scum? Has it done something absurdly scummy?

Players I wont lynch Today: titan, Orcinus, Mac, Stalin, RBD, Foxhound, Clyton