Tales of You (Endgame)

[AngryPidgeon]

@Mastin: Eh I strongly disagree? I think thats a really really null tell for me. Liiikke Mini 1408 as scum I was absurdly proactive about lynching Thadmiral and in general.

HPATPL too for that matter. More later, busy now.

[MastinSSK]

This is not a rock-solid tell. It's a potential alignment indicator but not a strong one. You have scum-games generating opinions and town-games being concerned about opinions, but

they're bluntly not the majority

.

The majority of your towngames are proactive.
A significant portion of your scumgames are playing more reactive.

But really--know what I'm seeing from you? Putting me down. I'm also seeing waiting for others, and not truly engaging many. Reactive play.
Know what I'd expect? You to be strongly pushing your reads. You to be voting. To be strongly pushing your opinions, vying for town leader position. Trying to take control and lynch scum, and if. IF. Not sure who they are, actively figuring it out. With a lot of inquiries, with a posting storm of productive posting focused on them.
When most of your posting is...focused on you.

If a true scumtell was 80%, this would be something like 65%. Not a strong indicator, but a strong potential indicator.

[Titan]

I skimmed some earlier and saw Stalin I think wonder about my thoughts. I probably won't be able to give any thoughts until tomorrow. I did tell Clyton that there was too much posting yesterday and didn't know what to make of it. I didn't really read most of it though.

I did, however, start my garden yesterday and I'm feeling all zen right now; there's just something really peaceful about playing in dirt so the thought of reading the game doesn't have me on edge as much.

Though I am getting ready to head back to work soon and unless I get a second wind when I get home tonight I know I won't be able to read and process everything. So, maaaaybe tonight but most likely tomorrow.

[AngryPidgeon]

But really--know what I'm seeing from you? Putting me down. I'm also seeing waiting for others, and not truly engaging many. Reactive play.
Know what I'd expect? You to be strongly pushing your reads. You to be voting. To be strongly pushing your opinions, vying for town leader position. Trying to take control and lynch scum, and if. IF. Not sure who they are, actively figuring it out. With a lot of inquiries, with a posting storm of productive posting focused on them.
When most of your posting is...focused on you.

Ya ok mastin.

I've been trying to explain how you are coming off to people who aren't you. Which is bad. Not good. Yet you still blindly insist that you are doing protown things and declaring yourself a leader makes it so. It doesnt and its getting you (mis)lynched. But go ahead and write it off as me "putting you down" if that lets you keep living in the dream world where you are singlehandedly carrying this game.

Lets see, what have I been doing this game? Oh ya I have been tunneling the crap out of BORK and F16 yet Bork is on pretty much everyone's obvtown list and my F16 push went basically nowhere despite me howling about how hilariously scum he is all D1. The only person who was like actually on board with that was RBD who is now dead. So I guess Ive had the wind knocked out of my sails cause no one wants to lynch scum with me and everyone is just circlejerking about townblocks and reachouts instead of actually playing the damn game (you know who you are). I just cant keep caring when we reach deadline and some random crapwagon from Nacho who isnt even playing the game lands on me and I have to claim my role that I had awesome plans for cause its pretty interesting.

So I dunno. I could go back to howling about how F16 is still scum but its pretty clear no one will give a shit. PV I'm squinting sideways at and I dont want to just start shoving that mindlessly yet because I dont have 2 pieces of towncred to rub together and hes actually DOING THINGS today which should make me better able to assess that.

And on Kagura, I really dunno what to think of it. Ive had 2 ideas Ive been tossing around like either they are just town (making PV/Orci great lynches in all probability) or are a Mafia Ascetic or something that scum let me investigate to make them look town for being chosen over the others. Dunno how Id feel about Pv/Orc in that case. This game thread REALLY needs more Orcinus cause I feel like that could have been a huge blindspot for me and most people on D1 and PV is actually contributing so Im trying to read him unbiasedly. (Dont like his assigning scum motive to your play exactly, especially considering you are the primary force behind lynching him)

[MastinSSK]

I've been trying to explain how you are coming off to people who aren't you.

Your posting hasn't given that vibe at all. And that's not even what my point even was about. I'm seeing shutting inquiries down reactively, rather than creating them proactively.

Lets see, what have I been doing this game? Oh ya I have been tunneling the crap out of BORK and F16 yet Bork is on pretty much everyone's obvtown list and my F16 push went basically nowhere despite me howling about how hilariously scum he is all D1.

My point exactly. One of the highest post counts. One of the lowest amount of content. On others. On reasoning. On pushing. Like, my posting has been tunneling and my posting has had fluff and my posting has gone in circles...but that's not the entirety of my posting. Ignoring your defense, it pretty much is the entirety of yours. This is an oversimplification; the exact wording isn't there. But it's exactly what I was saying. It's not just now. For the entire game, you've been reacting rather than being proactive. And seem to have a much larger concern for how you are perceived than I'd expect from a town-you.

[AngryPidgeon]

Your posting hasn't given that vibe at all. And that's not even what my point even was about. I'm seeing shutting inquiries down reactively, rather than creating them proactively.

This has been a thing for what? 24 hours? I spent all of D1 ranting about F16 and Kagura just to have people tell me "lol no Bork is just obvious town because of the posts he makes" Fuck that. And yes Im engaging you about your BRO 'reachout' which is basically a case for me being scum tailored to BRO's emoshuns and pitched as a reachout. The sad thing is I think its town from you. Its really almost too scummy to be scum.

NO THAT IS THE OPPOSITE OF YOUR POINT. you literally just accused me of being reactive when Ive wasted all my energy D1 pushing Kagura (and being met with this bullshit) and F16 (and being met with general apathy). You are making a meta argument about my play that has occupied like 10% of the game at most and is 100% understandable in the circumstances and 0% a tell even if it were an ongoing thing.

And the hypocrisy on top of that is I spent a LOT of my effort arguing with you on D1 with you telling me "But AP you aren't working with me" despite you tunneling the crap out of me.

[AngryPidgeon]

If you want to see me back in this game spiritually 100%, you'd maybe actually give 2-shits when I explain why I think your Nacho read is shitty instead of trying to pin a case on me for it that doesnt even make sense.

Just so many things are bogging this game down, and on my end most of them are from you.

[MastinSSK]

you literally just accused me of being reactive when Ive wasted all my energy D1 pushing Kagura (and being met with this bullshit) and F16 (and being met with general apathy).

I did say that I wasn't explaining things as best I can. The two augment, not contradict, one another.

And the hypocrisy on top of that is I spent a LOT of my effort arguing with you on D1 with you telling me "But AP you aren't working with me" despite you tunneling the crap out of me.

Arguing != working with. Working with = working with. Involving mutual levels of play, essentially. (The best words to describe it aren't there.) Another way of saying it, is that, well. Your posting was...passive aggressive? Best I can think of to describe it. I'll fully admit I wasn't working with others. But I also saw you not working with me. With. Well. With shit like this, to be honest.

If you want to see me back in this game spiritually 100%, you'd maybe actually give 2-shits when I explain why I think your Nacho read is shitty instead of trying to pin a case on me for it that doesnt even make sense.

(And this also makes no sense, given the multitude of solid reasons presented, which you admitted held merit with an "I-guess-town" read.)

Just so many things are bogging this game down, and on my end most of them are from you.

The thing about it is that in past town games of yours, you've always overcomed those things. Me as scum, by overcoming me. Me as town, by working with the town in spite of me hindering progress. This is a problem that I traditionally have associated with you being scum--because I bog the game down for you, having correctly eyed you suspiciously. You overcome it as scum more often than not, and did so this game. But again, this mindset I'm not seeing as being from town.


I fully realize that my posting right now is probably not the most coherent. I need to gather those thoughts up and see if I can figure out a way to say it as clearly as I can. The best way I have of describing it right now is that, well...you're focusing on all the areas that I'd expect as scum and none of the areas I'd expect as town. More than any other words, those seem the most accurate.

[MastinSSK]

I fully realize that my posting right now is probably not the most coherent.

(Which means I'll probably stop talking. If talking is productive, I will continue it. I feel like coherent talking about AP would be productive. But I also feel like I'm losing that coherency, and that incoherent talking about AP is just more noise not needed.
Honestly, I think what I need is a nap. In part thanks to working on this game, I'm running on whatever the math is for going to bed at 2:30 and getting up at 6, hours wise. This game's something I try to squeeze in time for during the morning, obsess over during the afternoon, and is among the last things I do at night. I meant it when I said I have an unhealthily large devotion to it.)

[MastinSSK]

I lied. Wrap-up post on AP.
Could be said: his attacks feel half-hearted, with his defense being a focus, whereas a town-him I'd expect to have a half-hearted defense, with the attacks being the focus.

To keep this post from being AP-centric, though, general note that while I probably need to shut up about AP (since I'm not sure I'm conveying my point any more clearly with the extra posts) until I can make that talk productive again, I'm still looking to talk with others, on anything and everything. (Including their takes on AP and if they have questions about my read there.)

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin, I appreciate you

saying

that you are reaching out to me but you are not actually doing it. You are still pushing PV who is a pretty strong townread of mine. If you do happen to be town, I'd prefer you work with me to help lynch AngryPidgeon.

[CarbonFiber]

And quit spamming the thread, both of you. The past couple of pages have no new content. Just pointless arguing between the two of you while you call AP scum but put him for tomorrow and AP calls you bad town basically.

I want to hear more from DV, Kagura, Orc, and Titan especially.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Orc

vig me if i don't post tonight ><

[notscience]

@AP

Don't even try to call my shit contrived

Had I sheeped bro in Wicked town could have won, which shows you didn't actually read the fucking game

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I realize they don't have perfect accuracy as scumhunters. But they don't suck. No, they are EXCELLENT players, and their death was important. So if for nobody else if not them, then I'm pushing for a PV lynch. Oh, sure. We can and should make productive use of our time for today to discuss other things. But no other lynch (other than potentially AP) should be happening today. And while I might not be a paragon of mafia hunters, I don't suck either. I'm mediocre, not godfuckingawful. So this should be happening.

PV but not CF or BroDesp. Reads you also apparently disagree with RBD about.

Unless I missed it, which is possible, you didn't respond to this point.

It's a little hypocritical to push me on the one RBD read you are pushing today - the one that in most alternate universes would be an easy one, and that in this particular universe is certainly easier than the other two. And their town read of you of course.

WHILE IGNORING THEIR OTHER READS.

You are quite selectively holding them up as a Tales of You Moses.

[AngryPidgeon]

@AP

Don't even try to call my shit contrived

Had I sheeped bro in Wicked town could have won, which shows you didn't actually read the fucking game

Had I sheeped X in Y town could have won. Can be said for almost any Y.

[Titan]

I am trying to catch up on this game but my kitten is laying next to me snoring and I keep stopping to just watch how adorable he is and I'm feeling myself drift off in the process, so I'll probably fall asleep before I can actually get anywhere and this is a useless post but I wanted everyone to know I have a cute fucking cat.

[Titan]

I'd love to hear your updated kagura read from the neighborhood because I've grown more than a little suspicious about them.

I too had a lot of doubts about Nacho in the neighborhood. I'm not really sure if it is because we disagreed with the gamestate so much.

Nacho coming in and telling me to stop telling RBD not to use personal insults felt weird and him saying that Just Sheep Us were creating a carnival of Lunacy felt even wierder because to me, it seemed like it was RBD all along. I want to hear an objective viewpoint on whether any of how Nacho interpreted the gamestate made any sense whatsoever.

I argued at Nacho in the QT

Then I posted rebuttals to all of his posts towards the end of deadline. What worried me most was the

timing

of when he showed up. He was gone all game and suddenly, four hours or so before deadline, he was here and starting up multiple wagons.

I know you still have suspicions of BRO and Desp. However, their posting in the neighborhood felt incredibly transparent and townish. I hope it'll be apparent in the thread as well. Desp was going back and forth with Nacho as well about how his timing of showing up was weird. I also felt that he had no reason to be so frustrated with the gamestate when he wasn't even playing the game although he said he was reading.

But Bork felt really, really town and I am not sure how to reconcile with Nacho as scum. But everytime I saw Nacho, I got bad vibes from him. At one point, he posted a list of his reads in the neighborhood and I got the same NY169 bad vibes.

And yeah, I'll activate your neighborhood if there's anyone else in it.

Tbh at the moment I'm a little annoyed at desbros comment about me not doing enough yesterday at deadline. I don't really know what was expected of me or what people think I'm able to do. I'm not a miracle worker and have a tendency to get overwhelmed and could barely keep up with what was going on, but maybe I'm being a bit sensitive there. I hope they do start being transparent in thread because that would really help. I'm still pretty concerned there, but I'm not going to push it because if I'm wrong I'll feel like a total piece of shit, so cabd can listen and I'll just wait right now.

Nacho does concern me very much and I'm not really seeing any reason for Bork being uber town. I know that he's someone who's pretty transparent, but I'm not seeing it at all. If he's saving up all his cool town posts for the neighborhood, he should start bringing them in thread too. I just feel like he's here, and again if it weren't for nacho being his other head, and that being a constant presence and concern for me, I wouldn't even remember Bork was playing.

Thank you for the neighborhood, now I need to catch up so I can be a useful neighbor

[Titan]

I've had flashes of paranoia about nacho, but if this isn't town-bork his scum game has evolved incredibly since We the Purple. I don't think it's possible to change that much, that fast without a few scum games in between.

Funny story. Last year at westeros after playing a horrible scum game, Mina drew scum in a game I didn't play in. Almost everyone in the game altguessed her as me, and because she played an incredible scum game, which looked nothing like my scum game, everyone had her as strong town. After the game when she saw how everyone thought she was me, she was a bit miffed because she felt like it detracted from the effort she put in as scum as it felt like to her that she won because I have such a horrible scum game instead of because she did a good job. I vowed that the next time I drew scum, I'd play a decent game. I drew scum the very next game (with my other head, hah!) and I worked my ass off. I had a rocky start, but I recovered and by end of day one I was most peoples strongest town read. I was overwrought with guilt and broke down to the mods multiple times, but I did it. You can see a similar thing happen with empire in asoiaf. He decided he was going to prove to himself he could play as scum and threw himself into it.

Maybe they are town, maybe this is town!bork, but it's not unheard of that someone decides they're going to really try to put forth the effort and has the scum game of their lives even without practice.

Okay that was rambly, I'm near sleeping now, probably.

[Titan]

Um I'm not sure if anyone commented or corrected mastin on his lb could be scum thing due to it being a cabd game, but I'm really certain that's not the case? I'm in bed and not at my computer, so I don't have access to Skype right now, but I'm pretty sure that's one of the questions I asked upon seeing the flip, so I *think* we can trust those results.

[MastinSSK]

Mastin, I appreciate you

saying

that you are reaching out to me but you are not actually doing it. You are still pushing PV who is a pretty strong townread of mine. If you do happen to be town, I'd prefer you work with me to help lynch AngryPidgeon.

And quit spamming the thread, both of you. The past couple of pages have no new content. Just pointless arguing between the two of you while you call AP scum but put him for tomorrow and AP calls you bad town basically.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.
You were saying?

(Kinda addresses both posts, but will give a more detailed answer in a bit. Basically, there's multiple aspects of reaching out, and the pages were most certainly productive with content in them.)

[MastinSSK]

Mastin, I appreciate you

saying

that you are reaching out to me but you are not actually doing it.

As my last post indicated, I'm trying, but am not the best at it. I reached out to you about your read on me as a start, and I'm reaching out to you about my reads--things that are leader-centric reachouts mainly, when you're not looking for that, you're looking for that respect. And I do value your opinion on things. So I fully do intend to read your PV case in more detail, and analyze it.

But I can tell you right here and now. From having skimmed it before, while it looked possible, I didn't particularly feel it resonate with me. And though it's interesting. Though it's something to consider. After reading it, I didn't feel my opinion of PV change at all. And my reasoning for PV hasn't really changed that much, I admit. I detailed this in my Clyton exchange if you read that, but basically...I don't see a scumteam without him. He's in the POE candidates. His play hasn't matched my memory of a town-PV. But mostly, I really. Really. REALLY. Want to trust Rancid's read, there. (I also think it was a Mac read.) Because as much as I want to trust living town, F-16, I trust dead-town a lot more in general.

I want to hear more from DV, Kagura, Orc, and Titan especially.

Got reads on 'em?
...Okay. I don't really have to ask about Titan. And I know that the reason you're asking is basically their lack of posting much so far today, but I'm wondering if it's townread-I-want-more-of, scumread-I-want-pursued, or dunno-need-to-figure-out for them.

(Btw, I do agree on getting more from them. DV's a null-read in general, but by POE I'm strongly considering scum. Orc's a scumread. Kagura is a townread not only off of play, but the multitude of factors vaguely pointing to them being town.)

Unless I missed it, which is possible, you didn't respond to this point.

Fairly certain I did. They're in the list of not-god-but-good for Rancid. Rancid ultimately ended up kinda-townreading F-16 anyway, and I think post-meltdown DesBRO was a townread of theirs, but even if either of these weren't true, they are for me.

There are a lot of Rancid reads I agree with, and not a lot I disagree with--and those I disagree with aren't clear reads near the end of the day. I guess I could full-iso Rancid again to double-check, but I think if you looked at his reads reverse-chronologically, you'd find it most certainly not hypocritical. (Okay. So there is one read for which my current thinking goes against Rancid's, and that's townreading you when he might have scumread you. But that's something which I can't be sure of.)

[CupcakePanda]

so many WALLS

[MastinSSK]

I hope they do start being transparent in thread because that would really help. Nacho does concern me very much and I'm not really seeing any reason for Bork being uber town. I know that he's someone who's pretty transparent, but I'm not seeing it at all. If he's saving up all his cool town posts for the neighborhood, he should start bringing them in thread too. I just feel like he's here, and again if it weren't for nacho being his other head, and that being a constant presence and concern for me, I wouldn't even remember Bork was playing.

And now you know how I felt about F-16 and to some extent the other two members of the Terrible Trio. (Name's not an insult, btw. It could be one if the terrible-trio defends lotsa scum and pushes mislynches, which would make them a terrible trio of town players to the town. But it could also be a compliment if the terrible-trio defends lotsa town and pushes scum, which would make them a trio of town players terrible to the scum. It's a bit inaccurate a name, though, since I feel neither is the case and that they're in the middle overall, with good points and pushes and bad points and pushes. But it has alliteration, which makes it sound cool. )

It's not unheard of that someone decides they're going to really try to put forth the effort and has the scum game of their lives even without practice.

Anything Goes was that game for me.

I'm pretty sure that's one of the questions I asked upon seeing the flip, so I *think* we can trust those results.

I trust the flip (I seem to recall something akin to "no lying, but lol @ setup spec"), but there's a twinge of paranoia that Cabd game = starts town, dies, and comes back as scum. (Which, while misleading, is not a lie.) I don't know what Replicants are, but the name kinda implies, well, a replication of someone, which dieing-then-coming-back would allow. If Cabd answered THAT, I'd love to know.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.

By the way, while I realize this vote is set up to be a reaction to F-16, and to some extent it is, I should clarify that it is something that I was already considering. The main reasons I have for not wanting AP dead are (1) the chance his role is legitimately town, and (2) AP being AP. Both of which aren't exactly strong, 'specially given their handling. (In particular, AP this game, not the AP-town that I'd defend to the death.) And I'm considering the reasons for wanting PV dead, and really the main one I have is just what I said, sheeping Rancid. Whereas with AP, I have a lot of me in there. F-16's posting just served as the catalyst to set it in motion.

[Titan]

Mastin - do your school work and don't fail. Please

Also some town players do hate being scum read. Case in point me.

~~~

Hahaha ap - if you'd ever played in a game with me and seen me fuck up role information, you'd understand. Sometimes things don't register.

~~~

@TammyTitan- it IS in his name.

I don't think I'll ever stop being amused when people get Arthur and me mixed up :p

~~~

Eh just got to Post 3514. Need to think.

~~~

Oh Post 3515 apparently understands someone couldn't keep up and missed something about his role but has the nerve to say I didn't do more at deadline. Yeah I'm still annoyed.

~~~

Um ap - did you miss where lb said he could come back? Also also are you really so not understanding the immediate reactions to you? You are a pretty decent suspect yesterday, get a wagon, you claim cop at deadline, you come into today claiming you investigated a claimed miller and got a town result and you actually think people are supposed to go "doh he's town committing a gambit of course!" When the more natural reaction is lol scum caught. Like seriously.

~~~

Posting in case I fall asleep.

Pedit: mastin I'm pretty sure my question to cabd was if lb could come back as scum, and I'm pretty sure the answer was no or something along those lines, but still in bed, still not wanting to get up, will check tomorrow.