[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[LlamaFluff]

Thee are three neighbourhoods of four. There is one to two scum per neighbourhood (three is impossible).

If there are three neighborhoods of four and you require one scum per neighborhood, you can only have one in each. If it can be 0-2, then you get swing of what role scum get. If you get two in a vig group, they can control that very quickly and then you have scum with two kills a night.

Either way this has a high threat of game breaking when you start requiring X scum in a group because with a few flips scum can be caught or a few town force cleared.

Been playing with another Friends and Enemies variant

Making Friends and Enemies

3x Goons
2x Masons
8v Vanilla Town

Masons have the ability to recruit a new member on N1. If they attempt to recruit scum, the recruit fails. If they attempt to recruit town, the player is added to the masonry as "Recruited Mason".

Basically F&E with the masons being a one shot cop joint instead who confirm themselves to an innocent.

[BBmolla]

That's a great variant, would work awesome in face to face as well.

[Bicephalous Bob]

Sadomafiosochism

2 Vanilla Townies
1 Innocent Child

1 Mafia Goon
1 Jester

The goon knows who the jester is. The IC is publicly confirmed as town at the start of day 1. The game continues after the jester is lynched. If still alive by the end of day 1, the jester commits suicide and the first night is skipped.

[Mr. Flay]

No team.

[Bicephalous Bob]

There are two players with the same anti-town objective (get the jester lynched) on day 1 and one knows who the other is. How is that not a team?

[Mr. Flay]

I don't consider that a team in the usual sense, because it's too transparent. The Jester wants the Jester lynched. The Town knows the Goon knows who the Jester is, so any action to push for the Jester's lynch is going to be seen as scummy. The Town is never going to let a Jestery-person get lynched, so you'll end up lynching somebody else randomly. 1/3 chance it's the Goon, autolose for the Mafia.

If it's not, N1 the Jester dies and now it's a cointoss between the Goon and the remaining Townie. That's way more than 50% townsided.

[TierShift]

That's assuming an incompetent Jester. With a competent Jester, it becomes more scumsided. Thus, also a sort of team.

Seems like an interesting setup.

[Mr. Flay]

The Jester's goal is even more explicit than usual, because it only has one Day to do it. I don't see that so much "incompetent" as "functions as designed". The Jester can't be subtle and hope to succeed (for one thing, if the Goon is the lynch instead it's an autolose).

But then I find Jesters incredibly lazy.

[TierShift]

You're assuming the Jester has a smaller chance to get lynched than random; thus, incompetent.

[quadz08]

You're assuming the Jester has a smaller chance to get lynched than random; thus, incompetent.

Your logic does not follow. I don't think it's particularly likely that

any

player is capable of consistently playing jester well enough to get lynched more often than random in that setup.

[TierShift]

Flay's scenario follows if the Jester has 0% chance of being lynched.
I'll calculate the actual percentages:
25% Jester lynched*33% of town win in LyLo--> 8,25%
25% mafia goon lynched-->25%
50% townie lynched*50% town win in LyLo-->25%
Gives an EV of 58,25%
Townsided, yes, but not ridiculously.

[Bicephalous Bob]

The Town is never going to let a Jestery-person get lynched, so you'll end up lynching somebody else randomly. 1/3 chance it's the Goon, autolose for the Mafia.

the optimal jester play is indistinguishable from transparent scum play

assuming the jester is competent, lynching a non-jestery person (a VT) on purpose would give the town a 50% win chance, which is lower than if the town lynched randomly

if the goon senses that the jester is incompetent he should whiteknight him and buddy the IC

either way the goon shows associative tells

You're assuming the Jester has a smaller chance to get lynched than random; thus, incompetent.

Your logic does not follow. I don't think it's particularly likely that

any

player is capable of consistently playing jester well enough to get lynched more often than random in that setup.

Why do you think that applies to the jester in this setup and not to anti-town factions in general?

The jester just has to consistently make the town believe he's scum, or if he's in a cautious town, he has to make them believe he's the safest lynch.

[quadz08]

Because nobody has practice trying to get lynched, whereas even average scumplayers have seen it / done it a few times.

[Bicephalous Bob]

So you don't think there are talented players who have a higher chance to win their first few games as scum?

[Bicephalous Bob]

Also that's an argument against any new wincon

[Toomai]

Death and Taxes

v1.0

Vanilla Townie x7

Town Tax Collector x2

Town Homeless x1

Mafia Goon x3

• Tax Collectors target three players. They are informed of how many of their three targets pay taxes, but not exactly who.
• Mafia members and Homeless players do not pay taxes.

I have no idea how well balanced this is, but I like the general idea (

Mastermind

-style investigative roles).

[TierShift]

The homeless just claims day 1.

[GreyICE]

Death and Taxes

v1.0

Vanilla Townie x7

Town Tax Collector x2

Town Homeless x1

Mafia Goon x3

• Tax Collectors target three players. They are informed of how many of their three targets pay taxes, but not exactly who.
• Mafia members and Homeless players do not pay taxes.

I have no idea how well balanced this is, but I like the general idea (

Mastermind

-style investigative roles).

So you renamed "Cop" and "Miller"?

[Kagami]

Seems like the miller is an IC. Counterclaiming would be decidedly bad play.

Collectors are strictly more powerful than a cop. They could target the miller, themselves, and one other to be just a cop on night 1, or (the probably better play) target two high probability town and themselves (or the miller) to conf-inno two players at a time. Even one collector there might be townsided.

[Kagami]

Might work if the homeless receives a vanilla PM, and there is more than one of him.

[Toomai]

It would be disallowed for a Tax Collector to target themselves, just like any other investigative role. And yeah maybe two (or even random from 0-2) Homeless is better.

[TierShift]

Might work if the homeless receives a vanilla PM, and there is more than one of him.

So then you have millers, who don't know that they're millers. That's pretty bastard.

[Kagami]

open games can't be bastard.

[Kagami]

Two millers would still claim. It would still be suboptimal to counterclaim, and that would make the setup even more townsided. I think the millers would really have to be secret, or the collectors would have to be heavily nerfed through some other mechanism.

In order to avoid having a "secret role" mechanic, you could introduce an element that makes it highly undesirable for the hobos to claim. Could be that town simply loses if all the hobos are dead or something like that?

[Toomai]

I had a secondary idea where, one a player pays taxes once, they no longer pay on subsequent nights. So you can't just keep picking the same 2 people and changing 1 of them. How would that work?