Tales of You (Endgame)

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I still don't trust AP though I've come around to the original CF inno being an intentional gambit.

Mastin has totally, totally wiped out my townsense from early day 1. I'm not going to wall at him but some of his statements about my town game are simply false and you would know that as well as anyone. My ongoing reaction to being scumread in death's diner was not in the least calm. I was pretty contemptuous and never really trusted the game instincts of players I eventually townread after all the hoorah about me being scum on day 1 and 2, as well as the day 2 nati lynch.

I'm kinda fighting that tendency to dismiss players who misread me now because I know you usually have good reads. You and pie both thinking Mastin is scum meant that I came into day 2 willing to vote her.

[Just Sheep Us]

you should vote mastin with us, see if we can get duel ap/mastin wagons going.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'll be very surprised if Beli disagrees with that suggestion.

[Clyton]

Sorry everyone, I'll be somewhat busy over the weekend. I'll be catching up in the meanwhile, so hopefully expect a post from me tomorrow?

[AngryPidgeon]

Put me as V/LA for a week please

Im really behind at work and actually borderline having a panic attack over it. I need to not play mafia for a bit.

[PeregrineV]

I may be leaving abruptly at any minute. Waiting for some friends to get their asses in gear so we can do an antique store run. I'll elaborate my read with some of RG's posts, but it may be a few hours before I get it into the thread. Not because it takes much time but because I may have approx zero time. I thought we'd be taking off much earlier than now.

Anyway you can probably figure at least some posts I'll pull based on my narrative in 3749.

[PeregrineV]

I may be leaving abruptly at any minute. Waiting for some friends to get their asses in gear so we can do an antique store run. I'll elaborate my read with some of RG's posts, but it may be a few hours before I get it into the thread. Not because it takes much time but because I may have approx zero time. I thought we'd be taking off much earlier than now.

Anyway you can probably figure at least some posts I'll pull based on my narrative in 3749.

Sorry.

Didn't see this yet.

Also, everyone else is free to do the same.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'll be very surprised if Beli disagrees with that suggestion.

You seem to keep feeling like you have to refer to Beli every time Mastin comes up, even though it feels like Mastin is the closest thing you have to a scumread anyway? That wasn't really a question, but, consider it one.

[MastinSSK]

Hey, guys. Will read the thread after posting, but first? Bear with me for a bit. You're about to get a dosage of Mastin logic, but I think it might actually be Mac's logic using Cabdlogic, too.

Mac's role was a MODIFIED rolestop-bodyguard. A bodyguard dies when protecting, and a rolestopper stops all actions on a player like the JK variant alien, but allows the target to still act. This normally INCLUDES nightkills, contrary to what AP says, because again, that's how the role is defined.
Bodyguard is redundant with rolestop, normally.
Thus, the modified.
So I have a theory.

Mac's ability was to stop any scum ability on a given player. If scum killed Mac's target, Mac would die, like a bodyguard. If scum targeted Mac's target with some other ability (let's say something like rolecop or sane cop [Hey, Cabd game; it could happen]), I'm theorizing that Mac would ROLESTOP that ability...but still die.

This sounds like a frighteningly-plausible role coming from Cabd, and makes total sense to me as being a possibility. I realize there's some slight logical leaps involved, but take that a little bit further, and you get my theory:
Mac used his ability on Kagura. A scum power targeted Kagura. Mac rolestopped it, at the cost of his own life.
In the mean time, scum jan-killed Rancid. And the vig either didn't/couldn't/chose not to kill, or also killed Rancid.

Yeah, I realize it might seem like there are a LOT of assumptions in here, and it's a little bit convoluted. But in my twisted mind, it makes perfect sense.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.

[PeregrineV]

Hey, guys. Will read the thread after posting, but first? Bear with me for a bit. You're about to get a dosage of Mastin logic, but I think it might actually be Mac's logic using Cabdlogic, too.

Mac's role was a MODIFIED rolestop-bodyguard. A bodyguard dies when protecting, and a rolestopper stops all actions on a player like the JK variant alien, but allows the target to still act. This normally INCLUDES nightkills, contrary to what AP says, because again, that's how the role is defined.
Bodyguard is redundant with rolestop, normally.
Thus, the modified.
So I have a theory.

Mac's ability was to stop any scum ability on a given player. If scum killed Mac's target, Mac would die, like a bodyguard. If scum targeted Mac's target with some other ability (let's say something like rolecop or sane cop [Hey, Cabd game; it could happen]), I'm theorizing that Mac would ROLESTOP that ability...but still die.

This sounds like a frighteningly-plausible role coming from Cabd, and makes total sense to me as being a possibility. I realize there's some slight logical leaps involved, but take that a little bit further, and you get my theory:
Mac used his ability on Kagura. A scum power targeted Kagura. Mac rolestopped it, at the cost of his own life.
In the mean time, scum jan-killed Rancid. And the vig either didn't/couldn't/chose not to kill, or also killed Rancid.

Yeah, I realize it might seem like there are a LOT of assumptions in here, and it's a little bit convoluted. But in my twisted mind, it makes perfect sense.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.

Christ almighty Scum-mastin....

Kagura is either an Asectic or something similar.

If kagura is scum with AP, then AP reports town on Kagura, unless he wants to distance from Kagura scum-flip.
Scum Kagura acts confused and doesn't know why AP got no result if AP is town. Scum Kagura does not confirm AP lack of result unless they are scum together.
Town Kagura might confirm AP result, since they know their own role. Town Kagura does not let unknown-AP die because of no-result result.
If AP is scum and got no-result on Kagura, he might report that to avoid a 1 vs 1, but he could also clear Kagura as town to buddy or confirm his role. The fact he reported a no-result means he actually probably got it.

So, either they are both scum who coordinated their results and presentations of those results, or Kagura is town and AP is an honest results-getting scum or has access to one, or Kagura is scum-avoider who doesn't want to lynch a town PR or they are both fucking town being honest but not wanting to give too much away.

Sorry guys but I think I've reached my bullshit tolerance for today.

[MastinSSK]

So as I'm reading through I start questioning my mastin-read because she's actually sounding pretty town and not making me feel all tingly inside like she was before, but then there's the problem of how did this change happen?

I grew up. That's what happened. My posting was always town. Always has been this game. But it was masked behind emotions. (For the record, emotions are in fact a bit of a towntell, but only marginally so. Because a scum me is more calculated and less concerned.)

No offense meant to anyone, but remember Vi's post in MD theory about there being basically no distinction between the children playing to us playing? Yes, well...it kinda...well, it's kinda true. Getting overly-emotionally-attached to things has dragged the entire game down, quite a lot. I was guilty of it. Everyone this game has been, and anyone who claims they haven't been is quite frankly deluding themselves, because you can just tell, with the way everyone has interacted with each other. Perhaps some players were less guilty than others, but no player has been not-guilty-at-all.

And basically the first step to maturity is realizing that there is a problem in having been childish. So I acknowledged it. And then? Then, I went about, and have been going about, fixing it. Because while I might not be the best person to be an adult, SOMEONE needs to be that adult, and that player might as well be me. Because the most insane players are the ones insisting they're sane, and the most sane player in the game is the player admitting she's insane.

I'm not going to wall at her but some of her statements about my town game are simply false and you would know that as well as anyone.

...Apparently not, since a fair amount of my concerns are things that DesBRO ironically brought up after I did.

My ongoing reaction to being scumread in death's diner was not in the least calm.

I read that game, ffery. I remember you being a whole heck of a lot more calm in there. The most I remember is slight agitation at a player or two. Granted, my memory of the game is about as old as the game itself, but still, point remains.

I'm kinda fighting that tendency to dismiss players who misread me now because I know you usually have good reads. You and pie both thinking Mastin is scum meant that I came into day 2 willing to vote her.

For someone accusing me of being hypocritical...
...This sure is a load of hypocrisy. You're saying you're fighting the tendency to dismiss players misreading you, who normally have good reads...yet you're doing exactly that by dismissing me, when I've done reach-outs to you. I've listed concerns about you. They weren't points in a case against you. They were concerns. And I reached out about it. I said "this is what I'm seeing". I said that that's what I was worried about. I reached out to you, in more ways than one, your reads, your reasoning, and to address my concerns.

You've dismissed all of that in favor of... "Mastin is scum, making blatantly wrong points about me in an attempt to mislynch me"?

I'm trying to understand you, ffery. I'm trying to figure you out. But for someone claiming to be transparent...you're being a fucking oblique as possible.

[MastinSSK]

Kagura is either an Asectic or something similar.

That depends; I need to figure out the context of something first, though I'm not sure if I do if I should elaborate on it.

I did say it was Mastinlogic, though. What did you think Mastinlogic entailed?

[MastinSSK]

I read that game, ffery. I remember you being a whole heck of a lot more calm in there. The most I remember is slight agitation at a player or two. Granted, my memory of the game is about as old as the game itself, but still, point remains.

(In fact, I was reading it fairly intimately as the game progressed, though because of other factors, my memory of it isn't exactly the most objective.)

[PeregrineV]

Kagura is either an Asectic or something similar.

That depends; I need to figure out the context of something first, though I'm not sure if I do if I should elaborate on it.

I did say it was Mastinlogic, though. What did you think Mastinlogic entailed?

Actually, I don't think it does. His exact role, unless it helps us catch scum, is not relevant. The results of his role I think helped us to deduce a town player, and the manner in which the results where presented/confirmed helped to deduce Kagura as town.

If Mastinlogic isn't going to help us catch scum, then why is it present in this game thread?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You can take me back to early game. What early-game posts read as strong reasons to read Red Gyarados as town? 3-5 would suffice.

Their early ISO is littered with good examples of what I look for these days.

Yes, it does.

My goal this game is to figure out which of

(nachobork, GIF, Tammydra, 3dicehawk, you two, beliffery, natimuffin) drew town role pms.

So by answering that simple question you could in fact help me solve the game that much earlier.

Or we can pretend I don't know it's mastin because if SSK ever made a post that long I think ms would freeze over, so there's that.

I'm also a bit too chickenshit to vote Nati.

pedit- I want the reference too. I want to sort Tammy as fast as possible.

The earlier posts that notsci made had the tone he hits as town, but this post basically outlines his town approach - townhunt, townbloc, PoE, sheep town reads.

For comparison, have a look at this scum game iso: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Note his reaction to me, note his blatant buddying of bert - not the light-sparring/light-buddying interaction he did in this game but straight up "you're my in-thread mason and I'm going to buddy the shit out of you". The difference is confidence. Not confidence in himself. Confidence in other players being town. He doesn't have it here and the early game he's clearly watching and weighing people. He's coming to quick decisions, but the weighing process is there.

I've also obvtown'd like 5 times before post 30, you're all welcome.

Reach outs may commence at your earliest convenience.

He's not bludgeoning specific people about his towniness here. Compare this to the in-thread-mason schtick in the game I linked above.

Can you rephrase the first question?

I thought it looks pretty atypical of you and Nati in games together. I have to go check the way you two interacted early in street racers, but the fact you keyed in on him felt good (yes, I realize scum-you would do the same)

pedit-

PLAY ALONG WITH IT AND IF THEY RECANT THEN WE LYNCH THEM FOR LYING

LAL works in cabd games right

His process for figuring out SSK and Nati here is much more nuanced than any town read he articulated in the early days of the game I linked.

This is also quite clear elitism.

Hate to break it to you, here's another post.

I tend to key in on people I've really clicked when working with them as town before, and people I'm terrified of misreading again (I should probably add BRO/Desp in for the second category) which is why I keyed in on those.

pedit-

So are you going to be nsposting all game

This is in much the same vein as the first post I quoted, and gives me townvibes for the same reason.

hi guys

this post is town.

Really? I coulda sworn that was a universally accepted scum-claim. Someone even wrote a thesis on it.

(nachobork, GIF, Tammydra, 3dicehawk, you two, beliffery, natimuffin)

GiF isn't a hydra though. Why does he get to join the club?

I'm also a bit too chickenshit to vote Nati.

If you ever need to vote somebody, let me know. I'll make the vote for you.

VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

Why did we not join this wagon?

No idea what that means. I'm going to assume that means you think they're town. I agree.

Mellifluous: pleasant to hear

pretty sure this is notscience.

You'll know if it's not him. I'm not signing my posts because it

will

be that obvious.

I refuse to believe those are SSK posts.

I refuse to believe those dull and flat posts are Mastin's. If they are, we should have wagoned him by now.

Like, can you really believe those posts are Mastin's? Really? I can't. If they are, then FOR SHAME MASTIN! FOR SHAME!

but the Pokedex!!!!!

You only want us cuz we're shiny!

I should probably add BRO/Desp in for the second category

I actually want them sorted rather soon. Can we bump them up a bit higher?

THIS GAME SEEMS FLAVOR INTENSIVE THOUGH GG NO RE

Really? The flavor I've seen thus far seems rather pointless to me (and almost entirely dependent on specific roles).

Like, I don't see how any of the flavor we've received thus far is going to help me find scum.

VOTE: Clyton

VOTE: Clyton

That's Nati's schtick. We don't need two egotistical self-voters in the same game.

What from post 20 made you think MastinSSK is town?

My other head is a Mastin fanboy. Please ignore.

This was a Brian post. What I was looking for here was a sense of comfortable confidence which I've come to associate with his town entrance into games as his play has developed. It's almost always there when he's town. I was also looking for what sorts of posts he would pick to comment on in the early game - whose noses he'll tweak.

Dude

I am so hype

Tammy and I both drew town PMs and have obvtown'd hardcore before page 6

ITS SO GREAT

I like ffery so far too.

This notsci post and declaration of town-tammy had good trajectory. He tested a little and gave her time to interact with him and others. The read came at a good time in terms of his presence in the game thread, too. It didn't have the forced feel that I thought his trajectory on bert in the game I linked had.

Hi Bork

I'm going to

sheep tammy's read on you two

figure out what you two are and if you're town your job is to make sure I don't let any DBKs in okay

Acknowledgement of a bad read in an early game and a reach out to someone he'd want in his townbloc if he winds up trusting them.

Hi Tammy!

You seemed to have sneezed or something at the end of giving your read on me- you added something after town.

I don't get where mastin's coming from at all regarding you being scum.

@F-16, While yes the interactions are

technically

fakeable, they felt genuine to me. I just felt like the conversation with me early came from a natural place.

I'm not sure I can get this across adequately. there's a lighter touch and more playfulness in his interactions when he's town. A similar interaction when he's scum comes off much heavier and not as playful.

Also @wheover asked me about ffery-

It sounds different. Like, the hatred of the role pm seeps into her being.

He might post something like this as scum. That's not why I pulled this particular post. I just think it's one of the better descriptions of my scum game that I've seen on MS. I've seen more technical descriptions, but this gets to the heart of what I have to change in my scum game in order to improve.

[Yggdra Union]

I just reorganized the readlist today based on how town I read them and it looks interesting.

---------Town-------------------------------------
3 Yggdra Union (giffy and pieguyn) - Pie was so happy that we didn't die n1 because we were gonna be angry if that happened.
5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane) - Tammytown with a spice of MOE.
8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli) - I'm just gonna call this slot town. I can do that. Right? I mean, I didn't read majority of their posts, but I'm still allowed to do that, right?
10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16) -

Miller is automatically town

The way he claimed miller, his transparency in neighbor QT, etc.
11 Lord Business - Confirmed town
17 Mac - Confirmed town
------Leaning Town--------------------------------
1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8) - Just gonna call them town and not gonna worry about them til like D4.
2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV) -

because my neighbor said so

I think his reachout post were pretty town
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado) - BRO is town.
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience) - Not an obvtown. But still town.
4 orcinus_theoriginal - I didn't really read his post. I've been planning to do some stuff on him but I got lazy. For now, he can stay here for the role.
------More like nulls-----------------------------
14 Cupcake Panda - ppl says he's town for lurking. But I'm just gonna put him here
15 PeregrineV - More like "I didn't sort him yet".
------Leftovers I guess---------------------------
6 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha) - Dead. Def not killed by scum. He's here for being an leftover.
7 MastinSSK (Mastin2, MafiaSSK) -
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling) - This slot is probably gonna move up if someone not in this group flips scum.
16 Clyton - Leftover

-Luciana

[Yulia Jue]

Votecount 2-4

With 14 players alive, it will take 8 votes to lynch or nolynch.

Angry Pidgeon (2): Titan, MastinSSK
MastinSSK (4): Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV, Red Gyarados, Yggdra Union
Breakfast With Stalin (1): CupcakePanda

Not Voting (7): Kagura, orcinus_theoriginal, AngryPidgeon, Carbon Fiber, Clyton, Breakfast With Stalin, The Fox and the Hound

Mod Notes:
~AP is V/LA for 6 days.
~No prods needed, yay!

With 14 players alive, deadline is set for 15 days: (expired on 2014-05-07 22:26:21)

[CupcakePanda]

Oh sure, now that it's votecount time you all go silent and make me mid-page.

Or you could make 7 witty posts.

Here's a helping hand!

[MastinSSK]

3 Yggdra Union (giffy and pieguyn) - Pie was so happy that we didn't die n1 because we were gonna be angry if that happened.

Assume Rancid and myself town. Why would you die?

I'm just gonna call this slot town. I can do that. Right? I mean, I didn't read majority of their posts, but I'm still allowed to do that, right?

Well,

yeah

, you can, but it's a bad idea when their alignment is a subject of intense debate.

------Leaning Town--------------------------------
2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV) -

because my neighbor said so

I think his reachout post were pretty town
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado) - BRO is town.

For Fox/Hound, which ones?
For DesBRO--why only leaning town, then, and not in your town pile?

4 orcinus_theoriginal - I didn't really read his post. I've been planning to do some stuff on him but I got lazy. For now, he can stay here for the role.

If you want to townread orc, have it be on how he USED the role and his posting and interactions, but never for the role itself. (Orc's null to me right now. Still sorting him.)

[Red Gyarados]

notty and i are syncing now \o/

he's convincing me the Fox is town
we both think Nacho is scum

still waiting on his complete catch-up before we finish our discussions

[DeasVail]

Sheep, I've seen ffery be more transparent than this as well, but I've incorrectly scumread her at least once for similar reasons, and so I don't think it's a good reason to scumread her, especially when they've been pretty town otherwise imo (a few Beli posts in particular from memory).

Ok, I've decided.

Vote: MastinSSK

As always Ceph is free to change it, but I think this is ok. The only other person I could see myself being willing to lynch right now is Cupcake.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sheep, I've seen ffery be more transparent than this as well, but I've incorrectly scumread her at least once for similar reasons, and so I don't think it's a good reason to scumread her, especially when they've been pretty town otherwise imo (a few Beli posts in particular from memory).

Ok, I've decided.

Vote: MastinSSK

As always Ceph is free to change it, but I think this is ok. The only other person I could see myself being willing to lynch right now is Cupcake.

Well hey, at least I didn't sign it!

Vote: MastinSSK

just in case..

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I can squint and make out a cupcake/mastinssk team, maybe. I dunno.

[Yggdra Union]

3 Yggdra Union (giffy and pieguyn) - Pie was so happy that we didn't die n1 because we were gonna be angry if that happened.

Assume Rancid and myself town. Why would you die?

I'm just gonna call this slot town. I can do that. Right? I mean, I didn't read majority of their posts, but I'm still allowed to do that, right?

Well,

yeah

, you can, but it's a bad idea when their alignment is a subject of intense debate.

------Leaning Town--------------------------------
2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV) -

because my neighbor said so

I think his reachout post were pretty town
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado) - BRO is town.

For Fox/Hound, which ones?
For DesBRO--why only leaning town, then, and not in your town pile?

4 orcinus_theoriginal - I didn't really read his post. I've been planning to do some stuff on him but I got lazy. For now, he can stay here for the role.

If you want to townread orc, have it be on how he USED the role and his posting and interactions, but never for the role itself. (Orc's null to me right now. Still sorting him.)

1. Why not?
2. Um both?
Also, the town pile are for nigh-confirmed/confirmed town list. Fery gets to stay there as an honorary spot.
3.

It makes my readlist look pretty

k fine. He used his role in a town way.

[CarbonFiber]

Here's where I am at: I'd still bet the farm on Yggrdra, Titan, and JSU. I took a look at Dark Age of the Law Mafia to see PV's scum-posting and it looks very different. In particular, his posting doesn't resonate to me the way it does here which makes me more certain about his affiliation. I am similarly confident about the Fox and the Hound every time DV posts. RedGyarados still feels town although I am not sure if I agree with Ffery's depiction of NotScience meta but then again, we look at it in very different ways. Cupcake is still a pretty strong town read. I have weaker townleans on Kagura, Orc, and Breakfast, null on Clyton. The game still leads right back to MastinSSK and AngryPidgeon. Happy to see Mastin getting lynched today. I want to hear if anyone has any other thoughts before moving forward.