Tales of You (Endgame)

[Yulia Jue]

Votecount 2-9

With 14 players alive, it will take 8 votes to lynch or nolynch.

Angry Pidgeon (1): MastinSSK
MastinSSK (4): Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV, Yggdra Union, orcinus_theoriginal
Breakfast With Stalin (1): CupcakePanda
Kagura (3): Titan, Red Gyarados, AngryPidgeon
CupcakePanda (1): The Fox and the Hound


Not Voting (4): Kagura, Carbon Fiber, Clyton, Breakfast With Stalin

Mod Notes:
~AP is V/LA for negative one bazillion days.
~PV is V/LA until the night of the 28th
~Kagura is V/LA until the night of the 30th
~MastinSSK will be V/LA from the 2nd to the 4th
~CarbonFiber has potential VLA for the first two weeks of April
~Why not add giffy head of yggdra on VLA too

~I had to prod and that makes me the sads

With 14 players alive, deadline is set for 15 days: (expired on 2014-05-07 22:26:21)

[CarbonFiber]

I'd actually very much like to hear from Kagura, Orc, Clyton, and Titan.

Thoughts on what? Sorry, I skimmed through.

Your updated reads mostly and whether you got anything out of your back-and-forth with MastinSSK earlier in the game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

My thought is vig. I've given some minor thought to 2 scum teams, and it might make sense of where the daytime lines get drawn, but I'm nowhere near convinced that's what's going on.

Please tell me this isn't real

I forget who suggested it. I've rolled it around in my head a few times. I dunno. I don't think so. The puzzle pieces aren't coming together very easily, though.

I think the huge divergence in RBD reads indicates two very different fragments of town in this game, with two strongly divergent ideas about what is going on.

Talk to me about these fragments of town with strongly divergent ideas. Obviously, at a surface level, it is apparent to anyone that reads the thread but I am hoping that you could elaborate in depth on these ideas.

What do you think is going on in the game and why do you think these divergent ideas developed. Do they say anything about the affiliation of the people who have these ideas? Where do you currently stand? Have your thoughts been updated since the last time you posted your list of reads?

You ask a lot of questions and I don't feel like thinking deep thoughts at the moment. I'll try to answer this tomorrow morning.

fery i'm caught up

What are you thinking?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Orcinus I'm awake for maybe another half hour. Do you want to discuss the game?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

With gf. No

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Tomorrow

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sorry, but family drama has put me completely out of the mood for mafia and so my plan is to get to this tomorrow. It's possible I'll be suddenly in the mood later tonight, but probably not. Sorry again.

-DV

[Nachomamma8]

I'm riding solo.
I was going to vote mastin, but I suddenly skimmed the last two pages (although don't plan on reading much of it until later) and happened upon things that pretty much trashed my resolve.

Although: Mastin, is there any other game where you were simply "too mean" to be scum?

[CarbonFiber]

What are those things?

[MastinSSK]

I'm riding solo.
I was going to vote mastin, but I suddenly skimmed the last two pages (although don't plan on reading much of it until later) and happened upon things that pretty much trashed my resolve.

VOTE: Nachomamma8.

Although: Mastin, is there any other game where you were simply "too mean" to be scum?

Basically all of my recent games, from Game of Champions to JFSF to House Party. Mod is Dead Fire/Ice had it. House Party had it. I lost my shit in Newbie 1456. It's subtle, but there was a clear hostility in Xenosaga. Chosen Mafia, a huge influence memory-wise on my play this game, was another example of the hostility. It's not as snappy as later games, in part because my mental health wasn't going strongly downhill. The last Street Racers game had it in spades, where I was shouting and swearing and cursing. The Fall kinda sorta had it, even during the game, in spite of the apathy. Gundamn Seed (in spite of my self-inflicted restriction AND early expiration) most certainly had it, too. It was also strongly present in Death Note Mafia. Touhou Imperishable Night had it slightly, too. Even in Antihero Reboot, you could see telltale signs of it. It was similarly present in Xenogears, especially fighting town players.

The closest game I have to not having it is the previous Tales game, and that was more apathy than anything else, but it was still there, 'specially at times in lylo. I suppose it technically wasn't really that present in Hard Boiled, either, but that's mainly thanks to my early expiration date more than anything else. Same for 546's Fire/Ice, since dead N1 = no chance. I suppose 285 Time Distortion would be another, since my head wasn't fully in the game (it was mainly talah) and the game was short--but what little presence I had still showed it (admittedly, a scumgame of mine had a similar trend, 1530: Geology).


Book of Shadows didn't have it. (Scum.) Paranoia didn't have it. (Scum.) Resistance didn't have it. (Scum.) LesMis didn't have it, nor did Chain of Command. (Although Chain of Command did have a passionate attack against Wisdom, it was out of necessity, and was all show.) 1465: Rubber Duck Affair also definitely didn't have it. Nor did Too Many Heads. The closest scum game to having it was Attack on Titan, with my initial aggression against Tammy, but even that was not the same. And going back to Anything Goes--there was a brief period of hostility in my play, D3. All other times, I was not. Because on D3, that scumread was legitimate...meaning I wasn't playing like scum at all.

As just a few of the more recent examples.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

My thought is vig. I've given some minor thought to 2 scum teams, and it might make sense of where the daytime lines get drawn, but I'm nowhere near convinced that's what's going on.

Please tell me this isn't real

I forget who suggested it. I've rolled it around in my head a few times. I dunno. I don't think so. The puzzle pieces aren't coming together very easily, though.

I think the huge divergence in RBD reads indicates two very different fragments of town in this game, with two strongly divergent ideas about what is going on.

Talk to me about these fragments of town with strongly divergent ideas. Obviously, at a surface level, it is apparent to anyone that reads the thread but I am hoping that you could elaborate in depth on these ideas.

What do you think is going on in the game and why do you think these divergent ideas developed.

I wish I knew what's going on in this game. I think a big enough chunk of the game is happening in your neighborhood and that the game thread itself doesn't contain some of the discussion that would help in developing reads and understanding stances. If you look at who thought Rancid was scum and who thought he was town, although the lines aren't clean, there is a neighborhood/not-neighborhood trend.

Do they say anything about the affiliation of the people who have these ideas? Where do you currently stand? Have your thoughts been updated since the last time you posted your list of reads?

Beli suggested a couple days ago in our hydra convo that the game isn't going anywhere because all the focus is on AP/Mastin today (and to a fair extent day 1 as well). I'm trying to widen my focus and talk to other players about things other than AP/Mastin, but Mastin doesn't make that easy.

As far as our stance, we don't want to vote either of them at the moment. When Mastin was going after me earlier I thought it was a scum-motivated push because her reasons are all wisps and cobwebs and her stated meta understanding of my play is strangely shallow. Like not understanding how much of my play in Death's Diner was unfortunately anger-based during day 1 and beyond, and how a town player strongly pushing a wrong and worse - unstated meta case so I couldn't correct it or even understand where the wrongness originated - wound up dead at my earliest convenience - night 2.

The other thing I don't like about Mastin is the level of noise she's at times adding to the game. Part of my scumhunting involves tone and timing. The timing aspects of stance verbalizations and changes are getting swallowed up in the noise.

Anyway. That's anti-town IMO. But I'm not certain it's scummy. I don't trust her view of the game because I know she's wrong in her read of me and I suspect she may be wrong about other players.

I don't trust your view of the game because I feel like I'm seeing too much surface and not enough of the evolution of your thoughts, and I attribute that to your neighborhood. I can't describe it really any better than that, and the level of distrust is less because I at least agree with you on some things, and the main thing we disagree on may not be revealed during the game, so who knows which of us is right about Natimuffin.

Bork has unsettled me for some of the same reasons. His posts have yelled I'm town on one level, but the probing, flashes of paranoia, and stance-taking that I associate with his town game aren't happening very much. And I assume that's because they're happening in the neighborhood.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I generally love what neighborhoods do to games, but this game I've been hesitant to ask to have my potential neighborhood activated.

Though Orci if you were from the same game as me, I'd consider it. I'm pretty sure you're not.

[CarbonFiber]

I was just about to head out when I saw the latest posts on my phone and chose to come back, open my laptop and respond, it is starting to get unhealthy, I really should be in the library studying for a test I have this evening. But I still want to have a breakthrough in understanding here so I'll respond to this. Anyways,

The thing about neighborhoods and what I've experienced in this game is that when you have ideas and opinions that are strongly held and people in your neighborhood share it, they all end up re-inforcing and strengthening those same ideas. I've seen that in action. There were times when I thought Mastin could be town, but then I remember how sure Pieguyn was about him being scum when he replaced in. I remember the certainty with which BRO and Desp accused Mastin toward the end of Day 1. I look back at Pie talking about how Mastin/Rancid/AP interactions re-inforced his scumreads on all three of them and then realize that the initial way I thought of the game does in fact make the most sense.

We have in fact talked in the neighborhood about stuff we didn't post in thread. I don't think that anything I've posted in the thread in surface level. Perhaps I haven't communicated it well enough to you that it comes across as surface level but I'm happier with the way I've been thinking about this game than I have in some games (like NY169 for instance). I don't know for sure whether some of my thoughts were developed in the neighborhood and I presented my finished findings here without showing all of my thoughts in thread so I won't discount that you may right that my deeper thoughts are hidden in the neighborhood although I feel it isn't likely. Is there is anything you want me to go deeper into? I'd be happy to explain it further.

Beli suggested a couple days ago in our hydra convo that the game isn't going anywhere because all the focus is on AP/Mastin today (and to a fair extent day 1 as well). I'm trying to widen my focus and talk to other players about things other than AP/Mastin, but Mastin doesn't make that easy.

Okay, here's where we disagree fundamentally and this is what I want to talk about. There has been a lot of noise about them. It is a recurring pattern I see game after game whenever there are charismatic scum players involved. People talk and talk about them for most of the day and then scramble around deadline trying to find an alternative lynch. You've seen this happen D1. I'd rather it not happen D2. Let's start figuring out our stances and moving towards a lynch sooner rather than later. I feel like there is this natural psychological impulse to say "okay, that's a lot of noise, let's focus on others." I think we are discounting the usage of noise as a scum tactic. In Attack on Titan, BRO and I were pressured early, and we got into a pointless argument and people discouraged us from voting each other. In Wicked, Nacho and I vs UT and T-Bone went the same way.

You gave your stances that you don't want to vote Mastin or AP? Who

do

you want to vote for? I feel that a repeat of D1 is going to incredibly unhelpful and I want you to help me make today a better day than D1. You saw the clusterfuck that happened at the end of D1 where you still had no idea who to vote for and a lack of a sense of direction with a ton of panic wagons created at deadline. It would help if as one of the few consistently active players, you spend more time talking about your reads, hashing out disagreements, and explaining who you would vote for so we can see where there is an overlap of reads and get an informed lynch. I'd be really happy to see more pro-activeness. I am really not sure what you want other than for the lurkers to post (which is something we all want). I am still unsure what frustrates you about the gamestate and it is one of the things I was puzzled regarding your stances D1. Rancid made the game a drag to play (some people may disagree), and then complained about the state of the game. You responded by giving them hugs and saying their antics were the only bright thing in a sea of frustration (I am paraphrasing). But I am unable to see if there is some sort of mystical entity that caused all of these bad things and Rancid's alt-slips were the one thing that is funny since I'm seeing them as the source of everything that was wrong with the game D1. Maybe Mastin/AP as well but there is only one problem I have with them and that is spam. Neither of them went to Rancid levels of personal attacks. I agree that Mastin's creating a lot of noise and posting way too much.

One more thing - you are falling into a pattern of trusting the reads of people who agree with you and not trusting the reads of those that you disagree with. For all the "internalizing" you said you did about my thoughts on your play, I feel like doing this puts us right back in square one. The point of working with players for me is to either convince people, or let them convince me by bouncing my thoughts off of them. When you separate people into those you agree with and those you don't and refuse to work with the latter group, I feel that you'd never get out of having incorrect reads because

by definition

, you are not being receptive to those that disagree with you which pretty much puts the game at a deadlock. I won't defend your lack of trust in MastinSSK or ask you to work with them although on principle I should because suspecting you isn't a reason for discarding their opinions. I will point out though that disagreeing about Rancid's affiliation isn't a reason to distrust my view on the gamestate. If at some point, it is revealed whether Rancid is scum, hopefully you'll make the necessary adjustments and if it is revealed that they are town, I will do the same. And I wonder if you'll start trusting my view if Mastin/Rancid/AP are all scum.

You say your stances are clear and you say that as town you hope that your motivations will show through and things that you do will reflect you having a town wincon. Please try and do something to make this apparent. You made a list of varying degress of town. It is just not something I can make any sense of because that is not how the game is structured. Someone is scum and you are probably going to vote someone. Make an effort to figure out who it is, and who you will vote. Can you give me two-three names? Who are the people that you still need to sort?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

No, I'm not following into the pattern of distrusting people whose reads disagree with mine.

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

My stances right now are clearly fucked until I figure out Mastin. Part of me just wants her gone and flipped so that I can course adjust or carry on. But that wish goes against my entire approach to mafia and I hate that I'm thinking that way in this game.

[Just Sheep Us]

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

also you are seriously overrating how influential the neighborhood is and how much content it's robbing from the actual game thread. the vast majority of f-16's posting there has made its way here, either verbatim or spread throughout several posts.

[PeregrineV]

Regarding 4112- Everyone should read this.

In detail-Given the posting activity in your neighborhood, the Titan/Clyton inactivity is very bothersome. If they feel the other is town, I'd expect a report on the ideas and reads they bounced off each other. If one suspected the other, for whatever reason, I'd expect to hear that also. The fact that neither has come forward to say ANYTHING regarding their neighborhood makes me suspect both of them, when I had them both as townreads.

Noise is a very useful scum tactic, but one that is often overlooked. Mastin knows this, but claiming he is using a scum tactic to get scum to NK him is a very illogical argument. Being super-town and catching scum is a way better method to ensure scum kill you, not spamming the thread and acting like scum. And he knows this too. So, while some of his posting may seem "not-from-scum", overall it is.

Trusting reads- Other people's reads should only be a starting point for developing your own. If your reads are based solely on someone else's, then you are doing it wrong. Anyone that has played a few games knows that as town, you don't trust everyone's reads, because they could be wrong. And you don't trust scum, because they are scum. So, you really only can trust yourself, and even then you could be wrong depending on what your basing those reads on.

[PeregrineV]

If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

But correcting that is not important to this game. Mastin is a big girl and if she's wrong, she's wrong and will learn from her mistakes. Your focus on her is pointless.

My stances right now are clearly fucked until I figure out Mastin.

No.

Part of me just wants her gone and flipped so that I can course adjust or carry on.

So vote her.

But that wish goes against my entire approach to mafia and I hate that I'm thinking that way in this game.

Your approach to mafia should include re-evaluation of your reads with each new piece of information. Is there another approach?

[PeregrineV]

I don't trust your view of the game because I feel like I'm seeing too much surface and not enough of the evolution of your thoughts, and I attribute that to your neighborhood. I can't describe it really any better than that, and the level of distrust is less because I at least agree with you on some things, and the main thing we disagree on may not be revealed during the game, so who knows which of us is right about Natimuffin.

Not sure I get this. What starting thoughts and what final thoughts are you talking about specifically?

[Titan]

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

I don't think that's what she's saying. She's saying she doubts Mastin's understanding of the game because he's misreading her, and though it can take you in the wrong direction it's a pretty natural stance to have. It's a similar way she viewed taking seriously Nacho's reads when Nacho tried to put together a scum team with greyice on it in Tales of the Abyss when she had role information that pointed to GI town.

[Titan]

In detail-Given the posting activity in your neighborhood, the Titan/Clyton inactivity is very bothersome. If they feel the other is town, I'd expect a report on the ideas and reads they bounced off each other. If one suspected the other, for whatever reason, I'd expect to hear that also. The fact that neither has come forward to say ANYTHING regarding their neighborhood makes me suspect both of them, when I had them both as townreads.

This is preposterous. I have given what I've said about the neighborhood and beyond what I've said, it's none of anyone's business. And considering the way you treated your neighborhoods in marketplace 3 as secret entities, I'm really surprised you're posturing about this.

And to compare it to the other neighborhood, which has been in existence for two weeks longer than the one I have, at a time when both of us aren't very active in thread, and i stated at the beginning of the day I wouldn't be doing anything with mafia for a few days is silly. Not only that to suspect us both is ludicrous.

They are not giving detailed reports from their neighborhoods and no one is asking them to, what is yours and mastin's fixation on mine?

[Titan]

Since when did you have me as a town read? I thought the last you said about me you could only somewhat see what I said as town???

[MastinSSK]

I was going to vote mastin, but I suddenly skimmed the last two pages (although don't plan on reading much of it until later) and happened upon things that pretty much trashed my resolve.

Although: Mastin, is there any other game where you were simply "too mean" to be scum?

Before I get into the rest of the stuff, let me just point out this. Aside from my lack of paranoia on Nacho and assuring others that Nacho would be townreading me, there is literally nothing.
NOTHING.

In my posting.

That I can buy.
Even remotely.

A town Nacho not townreading. Those two things (which are arguably the same thing) are literally the only damn thing in my play that could possibly have pinged Nacho on me, at all. Yet this? This says otherwise. That he's either nulling me or deeply concerning (even scumreading) me. Which quite frankly, I don't buy. From BROseidon who (after this game) will have a Fate-reading-RECK card on me, sure, yeah, I can buy that type of misread. From Nacho?

Fuck no, I won't. That he doesn't have the townread is itself a red flag.

But even then. Let's assume. Just for a fraction of a second. That somehow. He thinks this could possibly. Even remotely. Be a scum me. Being willing to take that to a vote? Especially when I'm the lead wagon? Also not a town-Nacho behavior. ESPECIALLY with a lack of interaction before-hand! Nacho showing concern for me as town? Interacts with me. If he is sure I'm scum after that interaction, vote. Never a moment before.

But let's say that he did. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, there.
There's the fact that he says the last two pages of my spewing has given him doubt-on-scumread. Which is bullshit, since the last two pages of me has been quite frankly the most nulled content I've been posting in a long time. The towniest aspects in the posting are things that have existed not only for the entirety of P3 of my iso, not only the entirety of today, but ALSO of my play throughout the game. So the reason for not voting me isn't valid, either.

Lack of correct read. Lack of interaction. Lack of proper reasoning, of the right chain of thought.

That is not a town Nacho. The bit at the end is thrown in as essentially an after-thought. Something like that, asked earlier and throughout the game? Yeah, town-him. Right now? No.

[Titan]

No, I'm not following into the pattern of distrusting people whose reads disagree with mine.

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

My stances right now are clearly fucked until I figure out Mastin. Part of me just wants her gone and flipped so that I can course adjust or carry on. But that wish goes against my entire approach to mafia and I hate that I'm thinking that way in this game.

[MastinSSK]

I'm trying to widen my focus and talk to other players about things other than AP/Mastin, but Mastin doesn't make that easy.

Hey, I'm talking to literally every player and trying to gather info and trying to figure things out and trying to get people working together, but I have focus for the most part. Mostly on AP, but right now, Nacho really needs pressure.

Like not understanding how much of my play in Death's Diner was unfortunately anger-based during day 1 and beyond, and how a town player strongly pushing a wrong and worse - unstated meta case so I couldn't correct it or even understand where the wrongness originated - wound up dead at my earliest convenience - night 2.

(Said town player you vigged, who wasn't scumreading you at the time of their death and made reach-outs to you, by the way. Like I said, I read the game.)

The other thing I don't like about Mastin is the level of noise she's at times adding to the game.

Noise mostly generated by people...well, complaining about noise, bluntly. If people stopped saying I was being noisy and actually listened to what I was saying, then they'd have much, much better ideas of where I've come from.

I don't trust her view of the game because I know she's wrong in her read of me and I suspect she may be wrong about other players.

Okay, who am I wrong about? Who am I right about? I'm not going to be utterly incompetent and be wrong about everything, nor a scumhunting god right about everything.

The thing about neighborhoods and what I've experienced in this game is that when you have ideas and opinions that are strongly held and people in your neighborhood share it, they all end up re-inforcing and strengthening those same ideas.

The problem is, if the idea wasn't correct, you're reinforcing something that's wrong.

There has been a lot of noise about them. It is a recurring pattern I see game after game whenever there are charismatic scum players involved. People talk and talk about them for most of the day and then scramble around deadline trying to find an alternative lynch.

For the record, noise about me has always been generated as town and nearly never generated as scum when I'm a lynch candidate. Look at how little discussion there was in Attack on Titan about my alignment. Look how much discussion there was in, saaaaaaaaay, that open game bork linked to at one point, about my alignment when I was town.

Charismatic players generate noise, period. But my experience has been that scum players counterintuitively generate

less

noise, and my theory on that is that they have a greater focus than town charismatic players.

One more thing - you are falling into a pattern of trusting the reads of people who agree with you and not trusting the reads of those that you disagree with.

...And you're not?

[Yulia Jue]

MINE