Open 550: Duck, Duck, Goose!

[Dessew]

Okay, it's technically reinoe's ISO from the last few pages except for one spoilered wallpost.

Now back to writing the 4 papers I have due Monday.

Wait a minute. I highly recommend EVERYONE WHO IS TOWN look through bubbajack's posting history. Not in this game. But his actual posting history.

He's spending a lot of time in the general mishmash forum. Since I'm kinda new I don't know how normal that is but what I don't like is that he's talking about these 4 papers he has to write. If he has all these papers to write then why is he hanging out in the mish-mash forum?

I might be just overreacting but I'm confused by this.

Its not the votes. Its that through posts 781-784, four different people each come to the conclusion that bubba is either scum or fishy. Your argument and Max's at least make sense in context, but the fact that NM jumped on board and then Reinoe recommends "everyone who is town" (:facepalm:) to look at his newly found discovery looks pretty shady.

I don't think I have ever seen 4 town players all come to the same consensus about someone who isnt conf-scum within 4 posts of each other.

Somebody mentions something possibly suspicious so I checked it out. I find bubba's lack of activity causing frustration so I check to see how active he is in other mafia games because maybe he's getting overwhelmed. There are no other games, he's been goofing around in the mish-mash forum. But this seems in stark contrast to his "I'm so busy with FOUR papers". It seems suspicious to me, but this is something I've never seen before so I ask the town. I'm sure scum don't care if their buddy is flying under the radar.

I found his "I'm busy with four papers" a disingenuous excuse to lurk in light of his other activities on this forum. What bubbajack is doing isn't helpful to the town, and it's not "inactive lurking" either. He's actively on the forum making posts in other areas.

not_mafia is probably right but to me it looks like bubba is not being completely honest.

His "wait a minute" comes out of the blue, but he explains it quite well, this is where it starts being interesting, though. Note that "N_M is probably right but...". I need some confirmation if this really can be a slip (not from reinoe, of course.)

Dr. Pants- he's not commenting on bubba's lack of activity and has in fact defended bubba's lack of activity. He's also been on both mislynch wagons. He says he's not defending bubba but then uses some strange logic to vote for one of the two people who have been pushing for a bubba lynch all game.

So I'm defending Bubba without commenting on it.

Also it doesn't matter who has wanted Bubba out when. What matters is if Bubba turns scum.
You know who else was on both mislynch wagons? Paschendale and Not Mafia. So excuse me if I doubt this wagon.

But there is no wagon. Only two people who have been pressuring bubba all game and then two people who have found bubba's recent behavior suspicious. And seeing your contributions to mislynching people you'll excuse me if I think you're overreacting a bit to the "wagon". It's nothing more than a co-incidence in timing to me.

Oh and after doing that read I should put my vote in a spot that looks more suspicious...
VOTE: nobody_special

>suspicious of my Mish Mash activity, votes who I think is scum.

What?

Are you suggesting that your mish mash activity is vote worthy?

>suspicious of my Mish Mash activity, votes who I think is scum.

What?

Are you suggesting that your mish mash activity is vote worthy?

No, I find it interesting how you are suspicious of me, and accusing me of scum, then go on to vote who I think is scum.

I suppose 792 included a poor word arrangement. I think it's remarkable that you think I came to the conclusion of my previous vote based on your opinion despite the fact that I clearly based it off a read on who's not commenting on your lack of posting+who was on both mislynches. I don't know if you're confused or I'm confused but you clearly feel that my vote shouldn't be on n_s.

VOTE: bubbajack

Oh no, I think you're votes fine on N_S. He's my scumread after all, I just didn't understand how you could vote a scumreads scumread, and you've still provided no explanation to it, you've simply stated why you think I'm scum, which is futher making me confused on why you voted N_S if you thought I was scum. Do you think I'm bussing N_S? Since you like this idea that my scum reads are town, why would you vote N_S? Wouldn't he be psudeo-town since all my scumreads have flipped town according to you?

Like I said 792 was a poor choice of words and that's where you might be getting hung up on. Poor word choice happens to everyone. But you not posting is not pro-town behavior. Townies would have a problem with it, but scum would not. So I surmised that anyone not commenting on it could be scum, however not commenting on someone not posting is not scummy behavior. That's why I also cross referenced it with who was on both mislynch wagons. Because it's more likely that scum would be fine with a person not contributing.

When you say that "I like this idea that my scum reads are town" that's a remarkable leap of logic, misunderstanding or not.

So Bubba, how about you be less mish mash and give us some well-founded reads?

@Reinoe: What was with that NS vote? You were arguing that you think Bubba is scum, but then voted along with him. Do you think Bubba is bussing NS? If so, why?

Clarified in 823. Bubba admits he misunderstood in 824.

I wasn't arguing that bubba was scum, I was arguing that bubba was suspicious. My N_S vote was completely independent of whatever Bubba's vote is/was.

Oh, I need some clarification here. What was this?
1.: this wagon stuff was discussed earlier, you should know exactly what Pants meant by it, reinoe.
2.: reinoe voted one of bubba's scumreads, bubba asked about it, reionoe didn't understand and then something happened I cannot comprehend. Maybe it has something to do with point
3.: reinoe "didn't argue for bubba being scum but for being suspicious" (?!) Then why the vote? Either the or later?
I know that bubba backtracked about this whole NS vote but he also did about the wagon stuff. His defense didn't get much effort (contrary to reinoe's long post below) the evidence is that he didn't stand his ground in such trivial matters.

UNVOTE: bubba jacki want to make sure I'm confident in my vote

Sorry about the inactivity, was focused on other things.

Once again: Sorry about my absences. After my last post I got very ill (and I still am a little.) However, I'm trying to get back in this game.

I have no time for this game this week, and I haven't for a while now. I'm going to try to catch up, but yeah sorry about my inactivity.

I have no time for this game this week, and I haven't for a while now. I'm going to try to catch up, but yeah sorry about my inactivity.

Now back to writing the 4 papers I have due Monday.

Wait a minute. I highly recommend EVERYONE WHO IS TOWN look through bubbajack's posting history. Not in this game. But his actual posting history.

He's spending a lot of time in the general mishmash forum. Since I'm kinda new I don't know how normal that is but what I don't like is that he's talking about these 4 papers he has to write. If he has all these papers to write then why is he hanging out in the mish-mash forum?

I might be just overreacting but I'm confused by this.

Guess how much effort the mish mash forum takes. 0. I'm done posting in like 5 minutes. Posting here I have to actually read and critically think. If you don't believe I have 4 papers to write I can gladly post my rubric's required for them, with pertain information as to who I am in real life blacked out.

And there it is. Bubba puts more effort defending himself in one day than he contributing to town all week. He gets overly defensive about it too. And it's just a never-ending stream of excuses to not contribute. Yeah, people get sick, yea people have work/school/family but I knew there was something about Bubba's lack of activity that didn't sit well with me. But it's not just the lack of activity, it's the resistance to actually provide anything worthwhile...

So Bubba, how about you be less mish mash and give us some well-founded reads?

I've given you reads.

Then do some new ones, like MM recommended. Contribute.

I'm not going to name a "Scum team" but I can give you my top 3 reads if that's okay.

1. Nobody Special - Hasn't delivered anything, coasting, random vote popping etc.
2. Not_Mafia - Your gambit was absolutely terrible, your vote switch at the top of this page was questionable.
3. Not sure. Maybe Maxous

I still stand by this.

The only effort put into the game is to defend himself.

VOTE: bubbajack

Then reinoe unvotes in order to deliberate his vote on his whatever (you should seriously explain it) and brings up no new reasons. For the record: bubba shared his suspects with the rest of the town, so that "contribute" thing was really uncalled for, after that quote, that is. But more importantly: reione had made his reasoning crystal clear, he had brought up sufficiently enough points to feel his vote on bubba justified from the first post quoted here. Instead, he was just waltzing around bubba It definitely looks like scum not daring to do something but his buddies are pushing him.

Also, Nobody Special something Nobody Special.

[Dessew]

Page top with an important post without trying. Hah.

[reinoe]

Oh, I need some clarification here. What was this?
1.: this wagon stuff was discussed earlier, you should know exactly what Pants meant by it, reinoe.
2.: reinoe voted one of bubba's scumreads, bubba asked about it, reionoe didn't understand and then something happened I cannot comprehend. Maybe it has something to do with point
3.: reinoe "didn't argue for bubba being scum but for being suspicious" (?!) Then why the vote? Either the or later?
I know that bubba backtracked about this whole NS vote but he also did about the wagon stuff. His defense didn't get much effort (contrary to reinoe's long post below) the evidence is that he didn't stand his ground in such trivial matters.

1. I did know exactly what Pants meant, I simply disagreed with him. Players do disagree.

2. Yes, I voted for one of Bubba's scumreads. That tends to happen in a game like this where people are putting up two or three players in scum lists. Eventually there's overlap.

3. Bubba was practically demanding that I vote for him and so I did. However my unvote was because
a)I voted for him in the heat of the moment and wanted to step back and make sure I was seeing things clearly.

b)Bubba was at L-1 so if he did wind up getting hammered I wanted to make sure I'd be fine with it, and given point a, I wasn't at the time.

Then reinoe unvotes in order to deliberate his vote on his whatever (you should seriously explain it) and brings up no new reasons. For the record: bubba shared his suspects with the rest of the town, so that "contribute" thing was really uncalled for, after that quote, that is. But more importantly: reione had made his reasoning crystal clear, he had brought up sufficiently enough points to feel his vote on bubba justified from the first post quoted here. Instead, he was just waltzing around bubba It definitely looks like scum not daring to do something but his buddies are pushing him.

Also, Nobody Special something Nobody Special.

"Deliberate" is such a loaded term when scum have daychat. I'm sure you did that on purpose.

I made my reasoning crystal clear? Then why was bubba confused? And as for Bubba's reads list, it was copy/paste from something over 200 posts ago. Speaking of reads list, I'm making a new one.

Waltzing around bubba? Bubba was practically demanding I vote for him. And if he hadn't then I wouldn't have been side-tracked by his questionable play. Which reminds me...

FoS-->Nobody Special

[Nobody Special]

So NS, the quickhammer?

It was harldy a quickhammer. Bubba was totally scum, even if his Role PM said otherwise. He never would've been nightkilled, and town is actually better off with him gone.

[Paschendale]

So NS, the quickhammer?

It was harldy a quickhammer. Bubba was totally scum, even if his Role PM said otherwise. He never would've been nightkilled, and town is actually better off with him gone.

Irrefutable logic, amirite?

[Not_Mafia]

Remember that we're in LYLO

[Not_Mafia]

Or as close to LYLO as you can get in this setup

[Dr Pants]

So NS, the quickhammer?

It was harldy a quickhammer. Bubba was totally scum, even if his Role PM said otherwise. He never would've been nightkilled, and town is actually better off with him gone.

Except now we've gone 3 mislynches in a row, and you quick hammered the last 2.

I'd say NS looks the worst to me right now, but I also agree with dessew that reinoe's stuff yesterday (timing, rational, etc) looks pretty bad.

[reinoe]

updated reads list...

Spoiler: TOWN

Me-I'm town.

Dr. Pants
He's been all up on my ass this game and it's for crap that I'd never even considered scummy or weird. I just think he's taking this game way too seriously, like the unvote/vote thing. I don't see how that's scummy but I think his mind is in the right place and maybe he's frustrated at the mislynches. His general posts have been attempts to lead the town in the right direction and he has been trying to encourage the town to post more often. When he said that the bubbajack wagon looked artificial I wish I had taken heed of his warning. Instead I made a snide remark about his contributions to mislynches .

Spoiler: Null

Dessew
He's null because of how he's been commenting on the dead. At first I thought it was because he was trying to cover up for Maxous when Maxous was commenting on the dead. However, without any flips associative tells are useless. He disappeared during day three and then comes out of the woodwork to make a misguided case.

Maxous, he's been hesitant to leap on the popular wagons. He was involved with the bubba mislynch but he was eyeing that slot for most of the game. His efforts to point the town in the right direction don't quite seem as genuine and I still don't like how he was commenting on the dead, but I'll have to give the benefit of the doubt.

Spoiler: SCUMMY

Paschendale-He's got town cred, but that town cred has not led to anything productive. I'll wait for him to post but he's got some explaining to do. He's kinda been coming to Nobody Special's defense a lot but I can see that he's getting frustrated. In fact one of his posts he backed off of Nobody Special altogether.

Not Mafia-He's been on every mislynch wagon. Like Paschendale he's got some town cred but he's not able to really pick up on scum. This is the sort of thing that I was talking about when it comes to scum infiltrating town. Pasch and Not_Mafia seem town and yet they only wind up lynching other townies.

Nobody Special-He's been on every mislynch wagon too. One quickhammer kinda sucks. Two quickhammers is like wtf. Also he said that Paschendale and Luca are of the same alignment. Well Luca was town....

If we had to lynch someone we should start with someone in this group of three who were on all three mislynches. Ideally I think we should lynch Nobody_Special.

[Nobody Special]

This makes no sense. You think I'm scummy, but you end with that statement about Pasch & Luca being the same alignment. Luca was town, but you have Pasch as scum.


....when I type it out it makes more sense from your POV. Carry on.

[Dessew]

Oh, I need some clarification here. What was this?
1.: this wagon stuff was discussed earlier, you should know exactly what Pants meant by it, reinoe.
2.: reinoe voted one of bubba's scumreads, bubba asked about it, reionoe didn't understand and then something happened I cannot comprehend. Maybe it has something to do with point
3.: reinoe "didn't argue for bubba being scum but for being suspicious" (?!) Then why the vote? Either the or later?
I know that bubba backtracked about this whole NS vote but he also did about the wagon stuff. His defense didn't get much effort (contrary to reinoe's long post below) the evidence is that he didn't stand his ground in such trivial matters.

1. I did know exactly what Pants meant, I simply disagreed with him. Players do disagree.

2. Yes, I voted for one of Bubba's scumreads. That tends to happen in a game like this where people are putting up two or three players in scum lists. Eventually there's overlap.

3. Bubba was practically demanding that I vote for him and so I did. However my unvote was because
a)I voted for him in the heat of the moment and wanted to step back and make sure I was seeing things clearly.

b)Bubba was at L-1 so if he did wind up getting hammered I wanted to make sure I'd be fine with it, and given point a, I wasn't at the time.

Then reinoe unvotes in order to deliberate his vote on his whatever (you should seriously explain it) and brings up no new reasons. For the record: bubba shared his suspects with the rest of the town, so that "contribute" thing was really uncalled for, after that quote, that is. But more importantly: reione had made his reasoning crystal clear, he had brought up sufficiently enough points to feel his vote on bubba justified from the first post quoted here. Instead, he was just waltzing around bubba It definitely looks like scum not daring to do something but his buddies are pushing him.

Also, Nobody Special something Nobody Special.

"Deliberate" is such a loaded term when scum have daychat. I'm sure you did that on purpose.

I made my reasoning crystal clear? Then why was bubba confused? And as for Bubba's reads list, it was copy/paste from something over 200 posts ago. Speaking of reads list, I'm making a new one.

Waltzing around bubba? Bubba was practically demanding I vote for him. And if he hadn't then I wouldn't have been side-tracked by his questionable play. Which reminds me...

FoS-->Nobody Special

1. Okay, players do disagree, yet he made clear what he meant by "wagon" and it was actually true.
2. Then I didn't make myself clear: I don't have a problem with your vote on NS on its own. My problem is 1. I don't get what happened there. I'm am being entirely sincere: I've got no idea what your exchange with bubba was supposed to be. He asked you about it then appearently there was a misunderstanding and bubba backtracked, in the meanwhile 2. you put your vote on bubba because he was suspicious (and "not scum", which should be explained, I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in my previous post.)
3. What do you mean by "demand"?

Only because bubba didn't get your arguments, they still can be still. He was busy, I doubt he was paying much attention to the game. For instance (here we get to your readlist) if there had been a wagon on me, I probably couldn't have defended myself efficiently because I was busy. Stating that my inactivity can be a reason to suspect me is pretty funny because I had posted earlier that I was going to have much more free time from Thursday on. Also, anyone who thinks I'm scum (

Nobody Special

) is welcome to make a case on me, I'd be grateful.
Rest of the readlist: putting you aside, I think there's no chance all the three scum were on all three wagons, mainly because the ones on kush and Luca could easily go without them. Your read on Pasch and N_M is mainly burden of profiency (is it abbriveated as BoP?) and the one on NS is more only with the quickhammers. I wonder how much you'd push your scumreads other than NS, please, provide some reasons for those cases. And what do you make of NS's comment on Pasch's and Luca's alignment, that ellipsis really isn't helpful.

[Not_Mafia]

Dessew what do you think of NS's lolhammer?

[Dessew]

I'm not happy with either of them. The rationalizing in #853 is also scummy af, but I couldn't get myself to make a case on him yet.

[Dessew]

Oh, it seems to me that only reinoe, Pants and I have commented on NS's hammer (by actually saying something.) What a shame.

A strange thought crossed my mind, reinoe. How long do you think this game will go on unsolved (whatever you mean by unsolved)?

[Paschendale]

Paschendale-He's got town cred, but that town cred has not led to anything productive. I'll wait for him to post but he's got some explaining to do. He's kinda been coming to Nobody Special's defense a lot but I can see that he's getting frustrated. In fact one of his posts he backed off of Nobody Special altogether.

Not Mafia-He's been on every mislynch wagon. Like Paschendale he's got some town cred but he's not able to really pick up on scum. This is the sort of thing that I was talking about when it comes to scum infiltrating town. Pasch and Not_Mafia seem town and yet they only wind up lynching other townies.

Nobody Special-He's been on every mislynch wagon too. One quickhammer kinda sucks. Two quickhammers is like wtf. Also he said that Paschendale and Luca are of the same alignment. Well Luca was town....

If we had to lynch someone we should start with someone in this group of three who were on all three mislynches. Ideally I think we should lynch Nobody_Special.

I've been pursuing and lynching the players I thought were most likely to be scum. If you have better ideas, please share them. If you think my arguments are flawed, speak up and we'll come up with better ones. Not_Mafia and Nobody_Special are at least stepping up to the plate and contributing. What are you doing besides complain? Clearly you're not finding scum for us to lynch.

Your idea here is based on completely unproven assumption. You're saying that scum are taking an active role in pushing the lynches. How do you know this? Maybe they're laying low and letting active townies butt heads. What you're advocating here is lynching active players, not scummy players. If you think there's something duplicitous or scum-motivated in someone's posts, point that out.

Based just on what you posted here (including the non-quoted Town and Null categories), why aren't you chasing Dessew? He's been inactive and made what you call a "misguided" case. You're protecting your two null reads, despite having harsher criticisms for them, and attacking players for activity.

Oh, it seems to me that only reinoe, Pants and I have commented on NS's hammer (by actually saying something.) What a shame.

What would you have liked to happen before the hammer? Did you have a counter-argument? Did you see a flaw in the case on Bubba? Was there someone else you think we should have lynched instead? If you think that N_S's vote wasn't on the level, say that. The speed of it isn't nearly as important as if you think it was legitimately cast by town against someone they think is scum.

Both Reinoe and Dessew are focusing on the superficial details, rather than getting to the meat of what's going on. We've lynched three town. What are we doing wrong that scum is fooling us? Is scum even doing that? Are they letting us attack each other? Who is driving these wagons?

The Kush wagon was primarily driven by Aegor, who became Freak and is now Reinoe. It was his arguments that most everyone on the Kush wagon agreed with. The Luca wagon was primarily driven by me. Bubba's wagon was driven by Maxous.

I obviously know that scum didn't drive the Luca wagon, but I don't see Max's criticisms of Bubba or Aegor's of Kush coming from a scum place. They were legit arguments calling out players for bad cases, defensive play, and anti-town positions. Our wagons have been town-driven. We're not choosing the right targets, but scum is winning by laying low and letting town players attack each other.

The players who have been coasting the most and are still alive are Dessew and Not_Mafia. They're not leading wagons. They're hopping on wagons later that look like they're going to get to a lynch, but never fighting particularly hard for them. Neither one argued very hard for counterwagons, either, even when their votes weren't on the main wagons.

I'm not sure who the third scum is, but Dessew and Not_Mafia are our best choices right now. Based on the above, I would pick Dessew for my top read.

[Dessew]

That post was more like directed to N_M, I just didn't want to specify, but if you really wanna know, when I actually read the last few pages of the previous day, the lynch had already occured, although I didn't know (because I didn't check) and I meant to make the exact same post as at the beginning of the day.

I believe I contributed to the Luca wagon to quite an extent, I was one of the firsts to call him scum, for example, and I haven't been changing my reads every other page, so it has some weight, even if it wasn't "driving the wagon." As I feel, if

I

coasted, NS did, as well. I feel conflicted about your read on him, up until your last post, I thought you were scumreading him (since like the Luca flip.) What's up with it?

[Not_Mafia]

So am I stepping up and contributing or am I coasting? Also what happened to your scumread on NS? And you seem to be handwaving that I was pushing for Bubba lynch since d1 so you can push the narrative of me just wagon hopping

Also I don't like your defense of the lolhammer, the speed is important because that influences town's decision to hammer, as inactive and scummy as Bubba was, that doesn't extend to wanting the day to end a week early.

[Dr Pants]

Well, let's talk about the votes on Luca and see if we can find scum on the wagon.

Nobody Special's vote looked extremely reactionary. They never gave particularly strong reasons and never provided examples or demonstrated why Luca's actions were scum-motivated. It looked like it stemmed more from argument than genuine suspicion. NS also was willing to jump off the wagon when Luca offered a single point against Not_Mafia. This was very strange as NS never gave any indication of changing their mind about Luca's alignment. I don't really see NS trying to suss out anyone's alignment, but rather trying to punish people for opposing them. NS's vote looks the most duplicitous.

From the Luca wagon, NS looks by far the most shady. It is, however, entirely possibly that there were no scum on the wagon. The lack of any significant counterwagon makes this seem unlikely, though. There was probably at least one scum on the Luca wagon, and NS is the most likely candidate.

VOTE: Nobody Special

So this happens, you backtrack completely on it, then NS quickhammers. Instead of looking back at this and having any suspicion about, you soft-defend him and draft up this huge AtE argument where you blast Dessew and N_M for coasting (???) and some how NS escapes this.

[Paschendale]

That post was more like directed to N_M, I just didn't want to specify, but if you really wanna know, when I actually read the last few pages of the previous day, the lynch had already occured, although I didn't know (because I didn't check) and I meant to make the exact same post as at the beginning of the day.

I believe I contributed to the Luca wagon to quite an extent, I was one of the firsts to call him scum, for example, and I haven't been changing my reads every other page, so it has some weight, even if it wasn't "driving the wagon." As I feel, if

I

coasted, NS did, as well. I feel conflicted about your read on him, up until your last post, I thought you were scumreading him (since like the Luca flip.) What's up with it?

Great, you called him scum and fought for it so hard that someone else had to step up and make the wagon happen. I'm saying that the wagons seem to have originated from town, and then scum helped push them along. So yes, you weren't driving, but you helped it go. Which is exactly what it looks like scum is doing. Thanks for playing.

Based on just the Luca wagon, at the beginning of day 3, I suspected NS. The totality of NS's play leans more town. I retracted my vote after considering the whole play and not just one specific moment.

So am I stepping up and contributing or am I coasting? Also what happened to your scumread on NS? And you seem to be handwaving that I was pushing for Bubba lynch since d1 so you can push the narrative of me just wagon hopping

Also I don't like your defense of the lolhammer, the speed is important because that influences town's decision to hammer, as inactive and scummy as Bubba was, that doesn't extend to wanting the day to end a week early.

You've done stuff, I just don't think you were the catalyst for any lynches. For example, you pushed so hard for that Bubba lynch that it took two more days and someone else taking charge to make it happen. Just like Dessew, you were soft in your pushes and let other people take the lead, and then the blame when they flipped town. That is an effective and common tactic for scum to use.

So this happens, you backtrack completely on it, then NS quickhammers. Instead of looking back at this and having any suspicion about, you soft-defend him and draft up this huge AtE argument where you blast Dessew and N_M for coasting (???) and some how NS escapes this.

See above. It was emotion that lead me to vote for NS. It is analysis that leads me towards Dessew and NM now. And as above, what exactly would you have liked to say then that you can't say now?

The whole purpose of coasting and letting others do the heavy lifting is to go below the radar. So that mislynches can't be blamed on you. NS has flatly failed to do this. By quickhammering, he has put himself squarely in the spotlight. That is not the tactic of scum trying (and succeeding) to avoid suspicion. If NS' hammers were scum motivated, I am confident that he would have given himself away in some other way, but he hasn't. His overall play has been pretty consistently pro-town, but the hammers are reckless enough that scum would know better.

If scum were doing worse, if we had lynched one or two of them, then I could see NS' reckless moves as more scum-motivated, since he would be trying to win with far worse odds. But the scum are all still alive. They are clearly playing a careful game, and I don't think that a team that is playing that way would fail to rein in NS' actions. It just doesn't fit.

[Not_Mafia]

I can pretty much never get on board with "too scummy to be scum", also NS can easily play 'badly' independent of his scumbuddies. And I also don't see this pro-town play that you see, I just see active lurking.

[Dr Pants]

Based on just the Luca wagon, at the beginning of day 3, I suspected NS. The totality of NS's play leans more town. I retracted my vote after considering the whole play and not just one specific moment.

That's stupid. You're essentially ignoring the most active and important aspects of NS's play because you think his fluff has been good. A good sauce does not make a good steak.

If scum were doing worse, if we had lynched one or two of them, then I could see NS' reckless moves as more scum-motivated, since he would be trying to win with far worse odds. But the scum are all still alive. They are clearly playing a careful game, and I don't think that a team that is playing that way would fail to rein in NS' actions. It just doesn't fit.

All we know about scum's play is their night game, and careful play at night is based on the setup, not necessarily the style of the players. We no nothing about how careful/careless they are being during the day.

[Dr Pants]

See above. It was emotion that lead me to vote for NS. It is analysis that leads me towards Dessew and NM now. And as above, what exactly would you have liked to say then that you can't say now?

Also, I don't understand this question, so explain it a bit.

[reinoe]

1. Okay, players do disagree, yet he made clear what he meant by "wagon" and it was actually true.
2. Then I didn't make myself clear: I don't have a problem with your vote on NS on its own. My problem is 1. I don't get what happened there. I'm am being entirely sincere: I've got no idea what your exchange with bubba was supposed to be. He asked you about it then appearently there was a misunderstanding and bubba backtracked, in the meanwhile 2. you put your vote on bubba because he was suspicious (and "not scum", which should be explained, I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in my previous post.)
3. What do you mean by "demand"?

Only because bubba didn't get your arguments, they still can be still. He was busy, I doubt he was paying much attention to the game. For instance (here we get to your readlist) if there had been a wagon on me, I probably couldn't have defended myself efficiently because I was busy. Stating that my inactivity can be a reason to suspect me is pretty funny because I had posted earlier that I was going to have much more free time from Thursday on. Also, anyone who thinks I'm scum (

Nobody Special

) is welcome to make a case on me, I'd be grateful.
Rest of the readlist: putting you aside, I think there's no chance all the three scum were on all three wagons, mainly because the ones on kush and Luca could easily go without them. Your read on Pasch and N_M is mainly burden of profiency (is it abbriveated as BoP?) and the one on NS is more only with the quickhammers. I wonder how much you'd push your scumreads other than NS, please, provide some reasons for those cases. And what do you make of NS's comment on Pasch's and Luca's alignment, that ellipsis really isn't helpful.

Bubba was acting scummy. I told him I was suspicious of him. I voted for N_S because I was also suspicious of N_S. Bubba said that since I was suspicious of him then I should vote for him. Challenge accepted: I voted for Bubba. The lesson is if you dare me to vote for you then I'll vote for you. I think at this point you're feigning ignorance Dessew.

Paschendale-He's got town cred, but that town cred has not led to anything productive. I'll wait for him to post but he's got some explaining to do. He's kinda been coming to Nobody Special's defense a lot but I can see that he's getting frustrated. In fact one of his posts he backed off of Nobody Special altogether.

Not Mafia-He's been on every mislynch wagon. Like Paschendale he's got some town cred but he's not able to really pick up on scum. This is the sort of thing that I was talking about when it comes to scum infiltrating town. Pasch and Not_Mafia seem town and yet they only wind up lynching other townies.

Nobody Special-He's been on every mislynch wagon too. One quickhammer kinda sucks. Two quickhammers is like wtf. Also he said that Paschendale and Luca are of the same alignment. Well Luca was town....

If we had to lynch someone we should start with someone in this group of three who were on all three mislynches. Ideally I think we should lynch Nobody_Special.

I've been pursuing and lynching the players I thought were most likely to be scum. If you have better ideas, please share them. If you think my arguments are flawed, speak up and we'll come up with better ones. Not_Mafia and Nobody_Special are at least stepping up to the plate and contributing. What are you doing besides complain? Clearly you're not finding scum for us to lynch.

Your idea here is based on completely unproven assumption. You're saying that scum are taking an active role in pushing the lynches. How do you know this? Maybe they're laying low and letting active townies butt heads. What you're advocating here is lynching active players, not scummy players. If you think there's something duplicitous or scum-motivated in someone's posts, point that out.

Based just on what you posted here (including the non-quoted Town and Null categories), why aren't you chasing Dessew? He's been inactive and made what you call a "misguided" case. You're protecting your two null reads, despite having harsher criticisms for them, and attacking players for activity.

What am I doing to contribute? I made an updated reads list. It may not be perfect, it may have erroneous logic, but I'm sharing my thoughts about the game. I'm giving people a chance to question me about my ideas. I'm trying to point people in the right direction and I would also like to be pointed in the right direction. If someone thinks I'm wrong about my ideas I'd also like to hear it, and boy am I hearing it. I want to collaborate.

For example: You mention the contributions of N_S and N_M. Yes they're contributing and by posting alone that may make them look like town or null. However I deliberately put both of them along with yourself on the "scummy" list because all three of you have been on all mislynch wagons. By postings alone I'd be unlikely to consider you or N_M scum. However I've already suspected that scum looks like town in this game. I can see how that's counter-intuitive and unfair, but there has to be a reason why all three of you were on all mislynch wagons. There has to be at least one scum between the three of you. Which leads me to...

You want to know what I think the problem is? I think this town is too committed to "scum teams" and not about finding scum individually. People are so busy trying to make associative tells to find scum that they're making scum teams that defy logic altogether. That has finally seemed to stop but we're now in a mylo situation now. For example just because I have Pasch, N_M, and N_S as "scummy" doesn't mean I think it's a scum team. I just think at least one of you has to be scum.

Actually as I'm typing this it helps me clarify my thoughts more.

[reinoe]

Actually I was going to do a more specific point by point on my "scummy" list but I'm actually going to do a look through of the dead ISO's. They're all conf-town so their motivations and postings now have some weight worth reviewing.

[Nobody Special]

Hey! I'll have you know both my steak

and

my sauce are wonderful!


So. It makes me feel rather oogy that Pasch is defending me so hard. I want to say he's scum but all I have is gut.

I think I'll go back and read some stuff. Won't happen till tonight at the earliest.