NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Nero Cain]

That's just the nature of the beast, in pretty much every game there will be players that are absolutely terrible but confirmed town by roles.

[Tierce]

I suggested a Yates force replace 'cause a modkill p much fucked the scumteam over but Yates couldn't talk about his slip

If a slot is compromised, it's compromised regardless of who holds it.

Yates slipped about a scum QuickTopic in his picture, yes. For the sake of the integrity of other games, we were considering a modkill in the game that involved that QuickTopic (this game) and that game alone. Yates asked me to delete the image, I denied him as other people had already seen it, it was public information, and we were investigating the issue; Yates followed this up by messaging Plessiez to ask him to delete the image, and did so while attempting to deceive Plessiez about his motivations.

As was mentioned elsewhere, we expect honesty from players and moderators when dealing with the site staff and each other, and attempting to remove evidence of a game event through deceitful methods and going behind a list moderator's back are not acceptable behaviors.

[Nero Cain]

and did so while attempting to deceive Plessiez about his motivations.

This is p horrible. Why is this guy not site banned yet?

[Tierce]

and did so while attempting to deceive Plessiez about his motivations.

This is p horrible. Why is this guy not site banned yet?

Because we are far too hopeful.

[fferyllt]

I enjoyed my short time in the game. I had originally planned to try a magua style not reading shit approach. the compulsive vig role kinda ruled that out. playing so reliant on isos was interesting.

I'm still surprised town didn't suffer from a bunch of valid but fishy looking counterclaims.

I think if I had replaced into a scum slot it would have looked pretty hopeless.

[Egg]

I enjoyed my short time in the game. I had originally planned to try a magua style not reading shit approach. the compulsive vig role kinda ruled that out. playing so reliant on isos was interesting.

I'm still surprised town didn't suffer from a bunch of valid but fishy looking counterclaims.

I think if I had replaced into a scum slot it would have looked pretty hopeless.

Xyl did it first.

And that's kind of what I did lol

[ThAdmiral]

I suggested a Yates force replace 'cause a modkill p much fucked the scumteam over but Yates couldn't talk about his slip

If a slot is compromised, it's compromised regardless of who holds it.

Yates slipped about a scum QuickTopic in his picture, yes. For the sake of the integrity of other games, we were considering a modkill in the game that involved that QuickTopic (this game) and that game alone. Yates asked me to delete the image, I denied him as other people had already seen it, it was public information, and we were investigating the issue; Yates followed this up by messaging Plessiez to ask him to delete the image, and did so while attempting to deceive Plessiez about his motivations.

As was mentioned elsewhere, we expect honesty from players and moderators when dealing with the site staff and each other, and attempting to remove evidence of a game event through deceitful methods and going behind a list moderator's back are not acceptable behaviors.

If you're going to punish him, punish him. But if you aren't site banning him is there any point in ruining his reputation?

Just like it isn't right for others to speculate about the happenings without knowing the full story I think its also unfair to slander someone who isn't here to defend themselves.

[Tierce]

I suggested a Yates force replace 'cause a modkill p much fucked the scumteam over but Yates couldn't talk about his slip

If a slot is compromised, it's compromised regardless of who holds it.

Yates slipped about a scum QuickTopic in his picture, yes. For the sake of the integrity of other games, we were considering a modkill in the game that involved that QuickTopic (this game) and that game alone. Yates asked me to delete the image, I denied him as other people had already seen it, it was public information, and we were investigating the issue; Yates followed this up by messaging Plessiez to ask him to delete the image, and did so while attempting to deceive Plessiez about his motivations.

As was mentioned elsewhere, we expect honesty from players and moderators when dealing with the site staff and each other, and attempting to remove evidence of a game event through deceitful methods and going behind a list moderator's back are not acceptable behaviors.

If you're going to punish him, punish him. But if you aren't site banning him is there any point in ruining his reputation?

Just like it isn't right for others to speculate about the happenings without knowing the full story I think its also unfair to slander someone who isn't here to defend themselves.

What reputation? What slander?

These are facts that describe what happened. You and others were saying that the modkill wasn't fair and making wrongful assumptions. I gave you actual data. I'm not ruining anyone's "reputation" by explaining what actually happened, but I will openly say that what happened was willful deceit from Yates's part and that we cannot accept it.

[ThAdmiral]

This is turning in to mafiascum gossip girl.

[RachMarie]

I think 2 JOATs was too much. Even if some of our powers were kinda weak. I think having a one shot Vig AND a compulsive even night vig was a bit much. Of course there is the chance of scum finding out about the JOATs because they CC each other.

I am sorry I did not do more in this game, health was really bad. Between the sinus infection and then later the cellulitus, it has been pretty rough for me lately.

I almost JKed the night I was killed, and I should have. meh

Thanks so much to Nero who did an awesome job especially under the awful circumstances I put him in.

[talah]

I dunno. I think the sequence of events (and I'll admit that modkilling Yates in this game was unfortunate but probably prudent given that posting the image virtually proved that he was scum in at least one of his games, so modkill him here and it doesn't actually compromise any others - anyway opinion)-- makes it seem like the balance was out, however I didn't think that at all at the point that I died, which you'll remember was three dead town, luckily for town, all of them VT.

Having two JOATS was likely to cause suspicion, having the gunsmith get positives on two town PRs was likely to cause suspicion, and the fact that the smith also had to (truthfully) claim that this version of the role wouldn't have gotten a guilty on a cop was likely to, and did cause suspicion as well. The game was nowhere near won for town if Yates was still in the game.

Anyway there was a bit of discussion of this in the dead thread. Overall I think scum played fairly well and got a couple of unlucky breaks, and in the end town were pushing back in the right direction for the most part. Problem is, I don't think you can say as scum that you didn't have a fighting chance because of incorrect balance, nor that you should have been afforded a compromise which would have favoured the scumteam when a member of the scumteam makes a mistake. Town making mistakes is essential to scum winning the game; scum don't have immunity when they do the same. Town had the right to argue that what could have been a slip, was indeed a slip, and not to be punished for spotting it.

[SiX]

Were is the scum qt?

[Plessiez]

Scum can link to their QT themselves if they want to; leaving it up to them.

I was watching and also disagreed with the Yates modkill.

There was no way of knowing that the tab visible in his screenshot was THIS game's mafia QT.

... but this is exactly

why

Yates had to be modkilled. If the mafia QT in his screenshot was unambiguously for this game, it's just a (pretty amusing?) scumslip.

[Damon_Gant]

The more I look at it, the more I think that the game was not badly balanced, just everything that could go right for town did go right. The gunsmith avoided investigating the mafia ascetic or one of the town vigs. The modkill happened. The way that the JOAT counterclaims occurred made it quite possible to believe that they were both true. The mastin flashlynch turned out to be a hit.

If these things turn out differently then who knows.

[Zdenek]

Thanks Plessiez.

I sure would love to know what Yates said to you, but I guess that's going to stay private.

It's very hard to determine balance based on one game. I think Gant is right that everything could go well for town did. I'd say it was probably a bit town sided, the 16-4 mountainous is scum sided, so giving town some power evens that up, but I'm not sure that mafia ascetic compensated for the amount of power town had here.

[Zdenek]

If the game had been drawn out, with conflicting claims and the compulsive vig shoot town, the ascetic being investigated. I think it would have been very different. With the game going so fast, it meant that town had time to trust the claims.

[ThAdmiral]

scum qt: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/RtvxeTnnNwY

If the game had been drawn out, with conflicting claims and the compulsive vig shoot town, the ascetic being investigated. I think it would have been very different. With the game going so fast, it meant that town had time to trust the claims.

Yeah I think in general though town tends to believe claims until they are proven to be wrong. As you'll see the idea was for our players to claim joat hybrids (like rach and six) but that backfired when a) mastin was lynched without the opportunity to claim, and b) ap did claim a joat hybrid but was proven false by the odd gunsmith ability wording.

Also if I had been investigated it would have looked like snork was blocked (i.e. his ability failed), not that I would have come up innocent. It really wouldn't have helped us much at all, and in fact would have made me look more suspect anyway.

[Faraday]

4 scum 16 town everyone vanilla is very close to balanced, and in this town gains 4 very relevant prs including one powerful one, and scum get one fairly shitty pr. At very least scum needed a rb to deal with the gunsmith. There was no way for us to play around it.

If you're coming from the basis that 4 scum and 16 town mountainous is balanced, sure this will look townsided. The thing is, you're wrong that is not even fucking close to balanced. 2:11 mountainous is theoretically scum sided and scum sided in practise. 1 strong PR + 3 weak ones was pretty much needed.

[Faraday]

I think it's pretty easy to fall into the trap of seeing the result and calling something balanced, or unbalanced.

[Snork]

Fferyllt did a great job as a replacment. I'm impressed! Can someone write an awesome scummie nom cuz I suck at writing

As far as the balance - the scum should have had at least 5 people, and at least 1 way to actively engage PRs - roleblocker, something. The ascetic is good for that player only and doesn't help the team, imo. Scum PRs, especially when limited, should focus on team benefit. A doctor would have been a good option. Even investigatives like a tracker or a role cop would have given them some direction.

Additionally, my role was pretty powerful, imo. The false guilties on the two vigs are really the only thing that seemed to balance it. Having a scum player be investigation proof is a good start but that can't be the only thing they have. In the end though, I think limiting it to 2-shot would probably go a long way towards really balancing the role, but changing it to a track/watch/follower/voyeur-type role would be even better.

The modkill was rough. And I agree with cabd - it should have been sitewide or not at all.

----

From the scum team, I think they were doing fine until everything blew up. ThAd was suspicious on D1 but really put work in to create doubt about that on D2 but then he totally disengaged on the last day. I think most of us really kind of walked away but had expressed our thoughts and ideas until we ran out. It seemed more to me like ThAd didn't want to get involved, rather than just.. nothing more to say.

AP and Yates fooled me completely. If I had not gotten the positive on AP from my role, he would have lasted a lot longer I think. Yates wouldn't have come under fire until much much later if at all. Seems like quite a tragic turn of events and I don't know if I'm as excited for this win as I thought I would be.

For town, stupid crap like what bjc pulled, what SiX/aptil pulled and what projectmatt pulled, only serves to distract the town's reads. I really wish people would take their participation more seriously. SiX/aptil - unless a gambit has a serious benefit that is short lived and clearly revealed, don't do it. Lying about your role is really never going to work out. There was enough doubt about your alignment that the lie created even more doubt about what else was a lie. It's human nature.

projectmatt - How could you post that day and NOT CLAIM A KILL... I'm just.. astounded. We went the entire day without knowing what was going on because a teammate checked out. We went an entire day with this unfinished business distracting our analysis... because he couldn't bring himself to clear it up for us.

Otherwise, this game was a lot of fun. When I got the result on AP and he claimed cop, I practically jumped out of my chair at work I was so excited. There were strong players on both sides that I'd love to play with again soon.

Thanks for letting me sub in, Plessiez - your timing on everything was top notch! I never needed to wonder about the VC. Superb modding imo.

[fferyllt]

I don't think I would have claimed that kill on day 3. I would have wanted to wait a while to see reactions to the kill when the day started, and after Snork claimed his result on AP would probably have waited until day 4 in hopes of getting a 2nd shot off.

I'm not sure how I would have felt about SiX's claim on day 2 though. Probably the same way - don't counterclaim a town killing role and get at least one shot off.

[SiX]

Huh? I didn't counter claim anything. I was the first one to claim 2-shot (Vig + Bodyguard) Jack-of-all-trades.

[fferyllt]

Huh? I didn't counter claim anything. I was the first one to claim 2-shot (Vig + Bodyguard) Jack-of-all-trades.

I'm saying that at that point in the game, I think I would have considered counterclaiming over your vig-kill joat claim, but I'm pretty sure I would have decided to hunker down and get the shot off that night. It's really hard to say because I didn't live that part of the game.

To me, Matt not claiming his kill on day 3 made sense. I think he would have claimed on day 4, because the data was needed then to help figure out the lynch and to hopefully make an attractive night kill target for whatever remained of the scum team.

[Damon_Gant]

As I couldn't find probabilities for a 16:4 mountainous anywhere I calculated it myself. With random lynching, town win such a game 17.8% of the time. Indeed, to make a 4 scum mountainous theoretically town-sided, you need a staggering 71 town players. Of course we can talk about scumhunting and whatever, but scumhunting's effect is a long, long, long way from balancing a 17.8% win rate. Calling 16:4 mountainous even close to balanced is ludicrous. Power roles are clearly needed here.

[Plessiez]

To me, Matt not claiming his kill on day 3 made sense.

I don't think that was deliberate -- day 3 ended before matt made a single post.