Tales of You (Endgame)

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Strong Town

3 Yggdra Union (giffy and pieguyn) 3 Yukari Yakumo - town as fuck. Would like to see more commentary about the overall game state and his thoughts about the neighborhood from pie.

4 orcinus_theoriginal - this will probably eventually weaken (for ffery) due to innate paranoia about mara if orcinus is a non-presence

12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado) - Strong town on the basis of BRO. Day 2 Desp isn't impressing me. :/

Town but not as strong

5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane) - I think I've put paranoia aside for now, but a scum team containing both tammy and nacho would fuck my reads over pretty badly. In a better mood, I could move this one up to the top tier.

nachomamma - Null/Town. Nacho focusing almost entirely on Mastin bugs me a little. He has a reads list on order. I've explained why I'm leaning town on the slot overall in the game thread earlier. beli has a visceral town reaction to Nacho's posts about Mastin (the ones from Friday. We haven't talked about the posts last night but I doubt they will change anything.)

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16) - lower tier town. I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town. His major detractor is AP though and that doesn't look like distancing. F-16 may be suffering from overall pissyness about the neighborhood and bearing the brunt of it because he's the most active neighborhood player in the game thread. I've been thinking about the neighborhood in the xenosaga game. The 5 player neighborhood contained the SK and 1 scum. I don't think any of the town players believed it was all town. No day talk probably helped prevent the game from winding up with a lot of key info/gameplay locked up in the neighborhood.

13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience) - moved up from the maybe town bucket on the basis of Brian's day 2 activity.

Maybe Town

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV) - I feel like I may wind up having to look back at this town read at some point because I don't really like their day 2 involvement so far.

14 Cupcake Panda - smugly useless. I think this is a towntell

15 PeregrineV - efforting. In this player list he'd have to effort or die so I'm meh

16 Clyton - Not enough data, but what I have leans me mostly town.

Not So Town

7 MastinSSK (Mastin2, MafiaSSK) - null to null-scum. The brainstorm leading to calling me town doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but some of the recent effort looks at least a little townish. I guess I want to see what comes of the discussion between Mastin and Nacho. Different players, different approaches, but the interactions don't feel anything like how Nacho sorts me when he's scumreading me.

9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling) - ffery still leaning scum, beli is at null. I've been thinking about what I know of his scum play, and this doesn't feel like it, but it's also really piss-poor compared to what I know of his town play. My comparison to his town play feels like a mirror image of the complaints he has about my play. Which could maybe be to do with the overall game state and how it seems to be affecting players.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

nachomamma -

Null/Town

. Nacho focusing almost entirely on Mastin bugs me a little. He has a reads list on order. I've explained why I'm leaning town on the slot overall in the game thread earlier. beli has a visceral town reaction to Nacho's posts about Mastin (the ones from Friday. We haven't talked about the posts last night but I doubt they will change anything

The stricken was left over from earlier in the week. No longer applies.

[CupcakePanda]

14 Cupcake Panda - smugly useless. I think this is a towntell

More so due to thread being cluttered with too much noise.

Playing useful only leads to my lynch anyways.

[CarbonFiber]

Ffery, your reads are similar to mine but I think me, Nacho, and Titan are all super-obvtown.

[CarbonFiber]

And your scumpile is Mastin and AP? Why did we spend the entire game arguing with each other anyways?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

fuckifino.

All the fuss about my lack of reads, particularly scumreads feels like it's a labeling issue mostly.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

actually I think it was the rancid read that we've mostly argued about and that was because you were trying to get them lynched.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

14 Cupcake Panda - smugly useless. I think this is a towntell

More so due to thread being cluttered with too much noise.

Playing useful only leads to my lynch anyways.

You own your meta. Your meta doesn't own you.

[CupcakePanda]

Hardly. You guys just think you know my meta though.

[CupcakePanda]

I will note that someone wrote out my meta somewhere on MS wiki, though that's up to you to find.

[CarbonFiber]

TOWN (Strongest->Weakest)

:

1) Titan (Tammy + Ser Arthur Dayne)

- Titan is my strongest townread in the game and I actually think Tammy's distrust of our neighborhood and questioning BRO's meltdown is a

massive

towntell because it is not something she'd ever fake as scum or is capable of faking as scum at all. It's because I think she has a few similar tendencies to me as scum in that she'd feel incredibly guilty for questioning it and it is something she'd never do on purpose. Her read on Breakfast for viewing the gamestate similarly also occurred very organically and her asking me about my opinion on Nacho in 4418 and 4453 after hydra'ing with him as scum as well as her other interactions with me fits with the way I'd expect her to interact with me and also fits in with her "

find town to bounce thoughts off of

" philosophy that we've used in the past. It is the little things like wanting a second opinion about her recent townread on Nacho that I don't think she'd think to do as scum and the timing and context of it felt like it came off naturally. That's just out of the most recent posts. The earlier posts are incredibly town as well so overall, would throw my laptop out the window if she drew scum here. And I hate people for making me paranoid. Also, I'm chalking this up as a correct read and I'll keep my can-read-Tammy card if she flips town (she will) because I am at a point where it is

literally impossible

for me to see her being scum.

2) Yggdra Union (GIF + Pieguyn)

- This read is based off of Pieguyn's early posts after he immediately replaced in. The confidence in Post 2585 and the way in which he pursues his reads is impossible for Pie to fake as scum. I've played with Pie in two games before and read a bunch of his scum games and there is no way he is capable of faking genuine belief in his reads. Pie also isn't the type of player to lead lynches as scum or invest himself in the direction of the day's lynch as much as he did here. It heavily, heavily reflects NY169 where he showed many of the same tendencies. Other posts like 2603, and 2654 show the same level of unfakeable confidence and pursuit of suspects that a hallmark, unfakeable feature of Pie as town as does his pursuit of Mastin based on Mastin's reaction to BRO's meltdown. It is one thing to not be convinced by it (which is understandable), quite another to believe scum-Pie is actually capable of pursuing it the way he did (which is impossible for him to do because his scumgame lacks that depth and confidence and he is as good as scum).

3) Nachomamma8

- Nacho's push on Mastin felt incredibly town and very closely matches the way Nacho pursues his suspects when he is town. His later drunk posting and the way his emotions were showing through in Post 4855 isn't something Nacho would fake as scum. Not that he can't, but he

wouldn't

. This continues in the next three posts 4856, 4857, and 4859 where he launches an attack on Mastin for ignoring BRO's meltdown. The major difference I saw between his push on Sakura in NY169 and here was that he only used emotion to withdraw from the attack there whereas here, he used extremely deep emotions to launch an attack on Mastin and it goes against every bit of Nacho's scumplay that I am aware of. Reading those sequence of posts, I realize there is no way Nacho is in a scum QT talking about how brilliant his posts are because he wouldn't go to that level at all and Nacho isn't the type of player to marshall other hurt feelings to drive home a lynch as scum.

4) Just Sheep Us (Broseidon + Desperado)

- Their entrance into the game in Post 1145 mirrored a lot of my own feelings at the time because those were very similar to my reads at that point. BRO and Desp getting baited by RBD and going at it made a lot of sense from a town POV. I get that it happened around the time AP came in but I am not seeing it as very likely that BRO jumped into the game just so AP doesn't call him out. I also saw a lot of scumhunting from BRO feels like he is genuinely analyzing the game. For example, his differentiation between the core and the periphery of the game in Post 1500 and trying to figure things out from there. And then, there's the meltdown in Post 3020. I think most players are agreed that it was real regardless of his affiliation. I felt very townish to me because of why he had the meltdown. He says that RBD has been obvscum all game. He points his issues with Mastin. He talks about how Nacho saying he caused a carnival of lunacy got to him. Would he really be so upset at Nacho's words if he were scum? He'd be quite proud of it and gloating in the scum QT at causing a carnival of lunacy. He could be faking it of course which brings us back to whether he would "fake" an anxiety attack if he didn't actually have one. His pointing out Mastin's emotional harrassment of him and saying that Pie and I are his only allies also felt like it came from an incredibly genuine place.

5) Red Gyarados (Brian Skies + notscience)

- Brian's latest walls are incredibly well-thought out and his presentation closely matches what I expect from him as town. I liked his Post 4361 and the way he was townreading Pie matches up with my own reasoning and his explanation for the read going stale is what I expect from Brian considering he wasn't in the neighborhood and Pie's posting had faded out. I also really like that he picked up on the nuances of the weird interactions between MastinSSK and AP considering AP didn't. It was fairly obvious that I was talking about how odd it was that AP consistently defends MastinSSK despite the latter push on him which AP had oversimplified to "why should I suspect him just because he suspects me?" I also really like Brian's follow-up in Post 4489 and his reasoning for townreading me and PV resonates and is exactly the way I'd expect Brian to go about trying to get a read on me. His points about my meta-dive on him were things he brought up as town before and the overall level of effort and attention to detail is what I expect from Brian as town and I haven't seen them as much in his scumgames. This re-inforces my very early read on NotScience and I felt that the way he wanted to run up Titan to gauge their affiliation felt extremely genuine so putting both heads together, I am confident RG is town.

6) Breakfast With Stalin (Ffery + Beli)

- Their latest reads-list in Post 4950 and view of the gamestate aligns strongly with mine and I feel that we are about as in-sync as we

can

be given our playstyle differences. I felt the paranoia of Titan was somewhat odd but makes sense with what I'd expect out of Ffery and the one time I talked to Beli, he felt natural and unforced in his reads. I am not bet-my-laptop-on-it confident because of their positioning with regard to Mastin/Rancid/AP during D1 and lack of their help or vote on any of those wagons felt odd. However, it is still something I can see coming from Ffery considering the nature of her relationship with Natirasha. It is something I'll come back to when Rancid's affiliation is known BUT I'd be pretty surprised overall if they are scum here and the latest list of reads erased most of my frustration with them as to their complete lack of scumreads and oddly structured reads lists. I'd bet the game on my top five reads being town. I could maybe let Tammy's Breakfast read influence me and make it top six but I feel it'll be more apparent once I see some flips.

7) The Fox and the Hound (cephrir + DV)

- I walled about DeasVail in Post 1689 about how he is playing to his town meta. I like the way their suspicion on Rancid built up and I like the ostentatiousness of their vote. It matches up with what I expect DeasVail to do as town. Since then nothing about their posts gave me cause for alarm and I really liked that Ceph and DV decided to go back and read through everyone's ISO's again after they winded up with a lack of scumreads. The way they went through everyone and landed back with similar suspects resonates a lot and I agree with most of the reads they presented in Post 4947. I liked most of what DV posted and while the way Cephrir presents his posts make me paranoid, I've learned not to read too much into it.

8) PeregrineV

- I walled about PV in Post 3003. Important points are that the way he tracked down my read on Cupcake, enquired about it, and followed up on it felt very genuine and I liked most of his interactions with me. He doesn't come off well regarding his back-and-forth with Tammy because I disagree with his push and the points he made about her old meta. BUT, him asking me what I thought and making me explain my read on Titan felt incredibly town because it felt like he genuinely believed what he was saying about her and wanted me (as a strong townread of his) to discuss the read and explain my side. Him backing off because I have a strong townread on Titan also felt genuine and I'd be more suspicious if there was a hint of subtlety in there but it felt very blatant and transparent overall.

9) Cupcake Panda

- I explained this to PV in 1804. Nothing I've seen so far has made me doubt this read. What I didn't mention in it was a reference to Wicked mafia, a recent game I played with Katsuki as town. In it, the way he persued reads and his initial suspicion of players were very against the grain and independent. This sharply contrasts with the way he plays as scum where he either goes with the flow or predicts the flow and Anything Goes and Death Note are great games for reference. There were a couple of minor things that pinged where I felt he was going with the flow but overall, I am just not seeing the opportunistic manipulation and outguessing the town that Katsuki is well-equipped to do and often does as scum.

10) MagentaTheGreat (Orcinus + Mara)

- I'm not sure what to think of recent Mara posts asking for my read on Clyton of all people and the whole "

giving a summary to a replacement

" scumtell. I guess I can buy that she genuinely believes in it. I have 0% accuracy in reading Mara defending her hard when she was scum and accusing her when she was town. Orc's posts felt town. His role felt town. And as long as Orc posts more, it should help me solidify a read there. But if I am wrong about a townread somewhere and Penguin is town, it is either here or amongst the last few townreads above.

11) Penguin_Alien

- I'll give Penguin a fresh start and see what she comes with as I feel I know her well enough to read her. I don't feel that any of Clyton's posts made any sense overall and I was trying to figure out if it was based on playstyle or affiliation. I also think role-wise a bodyguard + watcher is rather OP but I'll wait to see what Penguin says and read her off of her play.

Scum (Strongest->Weakest)

:

12) MastinSSK (Mastin2 + MafiaSSK)

- I didn't like Mastin's initial attack on me and the way he went about it. Post 548 in particular felt incredibly manipulative and felt like he was agreeing with points that didn't make a lot of sense at all. For instance, agreeing with Rancid when they said "

this post, it blows

" in response to my analysis on Mac. The way he attacked Ceph also felt like he didn't really give Ceph a lot to refute which is sort of convenient because I felt the same way when he pointed out posts in a way that was mostly insubstantial and irrefutable. His points about me "raging" also felt like a disconnect from reality. His play towards the end of D1 was also scummy and I especially didn't like his portrayal of my play as bad. I didn't like the attack on Ceph saying that Ceph looked at him as a mislynch - Beli explains this in detail and I agree with it. I felt that his attack on Ffery D2 could be an attempt to manipulate people who had a growing frustration with Breakfast hoping that it would resonate with them. Overall, I feel like everyone is suspecting Mastin for the way he attacked them and interacted with them, and for my part, I certainly feel that his interactions with me were scummy and manipulative.

13) AngryPidgeon

- Mostly went over this in my back-and-forth with AP. I didn't like his interactions with MastinSSK. I didn't feel like his suspicion of me came from a genuine place. I don't like him interjecting himself into me and Tammy discussing the neighborhood last night to make himself look good with "reasonable" looking posts like "

this is all you were saying, weren't you?

" It feels like scum manipulating the gamestate to try and gain an advantage. I also feel like he is fishing for things to make look suspicious as opposed to genuinely trying to understand motivations and figure things out.

[AngryPidgeon]

So none of your reads actually changed?

[CarbonFiber]

I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town

This bugs me. I feel like you copied Tammy's reasoning. She has reason to feel that way about me but why would you?

[MastinSSK]

So SSK wanted to do stuff, but couldn't think of anything to say. However, he did have one thing, and I would love to communicate it.
Message from SSK (paraphrased to be from my perspective rather than his):
Those saying, "Get over it" to my (that is, Mastin's) having been "caught" can go fuck themselves. They all just assume that they know me. They know the motivations for every single one of my actions but they're just simplifying it down to "Oh, Mastin's just scum." No. SSK, frankly put, said that I'm smarter than he is, and that everyone should have realized that it's never that simple. That the quirks in my play are what make it shine. Hell, it's whole damn reason he wanted to hydra with me in the first place: to see my thought process in intimate detail, that real-time feedback with full knowledge of who I am.

And he's not happy with others, either. He ended it on a humbling note for himself and boosting my ego, by saying that he's not good at mafia, but that I am, and deserve credit for it that I'm not getting.

His message concludes.

...But while I can safely say "thank you for not mislynching me over the weekend", to which I am grateful for, unless those scumreads disappeared over the weekend, I'm telling you to go straight to hell anyway.

/has ~15 pages of catch-up to do, if memory serves.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town

This bugs me. I feel like you copied Tammy's reasoning. She has reason to feel that way about me but why would you?

I can go into more detail when I get home. I feel like we've played enough games together now that by mid day 2 I should feel pretty confident you're town. I also feel your read of me has been hedgy. your recent reads list doesn't alleviate that. what flips would solidify your read on me and why?

[MastinSSK]

Or nearly twenty. (Whelp.) Over the weekend, I had a couple of moments, where I briefly thought I could channel zMuffinman when returning, especially about something present in my game that is absent in Nacho's analysis, basically a "this is me, and you really should know it's me", but I can't remember what thoughts spurred this out and even this explanation kinda sucks. Does make me kinda sorta think of this, though.

When a player is your top suspect, you pursue them with a single minded aggression that never stops until something drastic happens: you cast doubt on every claim they make, you give people town points for voting them.

This is a surprisingly one-dimensional take on the matter, especially coming from Nacho.

When a player is MY top suspect, I'll let it be known. Depending on the confidence level, I might have different tactics. Scumread's only kinda sorta there, then I'll likely be engaging them casually and mentioning them as scum casually to others, vaguely prodding and poking around. I'm looking to solidify things at that point, to figure out things and whatnot. I'm also deeply interested in interactions--not necessarily reading them (yet), so much as noting their existence.

Scumread's very strongly there, and I'll be advocating quite strongly for that lynch. I'll still engage the target, explaining why I think they're scum to them, but I'm mainly focused on letting other people see what I see, and I put a lot of weight into things. And other slots? Don't contribute to my read on them at all. Okay, that's a lie. They do. It's just minimalistic, involving the context, circumstance, and mindset behind things. For instance, a scum player supporting me early-on against a scumread means said scumread is likely wrong, whereas if a player is flipped scum but I got support early-on, there's a much heavily inclination to townread them. (Again, explanation kinda sucks; still a bit drained.)

So while I might throw out an "okay, town" reaction to voting my scumspect (actually, now that I think about it, that word was the trigger--people scumspecting me, and my thought was about Rancid and me, but I can't recall exactly how), it's just that, a kneejerk reaction to what that means, and you can bet your damnedest that I'm going to be looking at the mindset of the person. Probably not immediately, but in the near-future, certainly, figuring out why they voted with me and if it was scum-oriented or town-oriented.

So Nacho's portrayal seems a lot more simplified than it should be.

[AngryPidgeon]

AP, are you avoiding me?

Not intentionally.

What do you think of Tammy's point that he's using what is probably the least valid game possible to assess her, and doesn't seem to care about that?

This is taking me A LOT longer than anticipated, so I'm just going to post and get to some uni work I need to do before tomorrow. I'll try really hard to finish by tonight, but man this game feels like a chore.

Are you honestly saying that using stale meta is a scumtell? I mean, I dont think it means anything alignment wise? If PV is scum and thinks he can get Tammy ML'd by bringing up stale meta in a sleazy way, hes sorely mistaken. And I tend to doubt that purposely misrepping meta is something PV as scum would do in the first place. So I dont really think that even if the game hes bringing up is egregiously out of date, that means anything about PV's wincon in this game. Im interested to hear you talk to me about how it is if thats what you are hinting at here.

If you think hes just being lazy...well? I don't know, his whole backandforth with Tammy was sort of sticking his neck out and making cases on Tammy isn't going to get her lynched at this point. That he used (arguably, I have no idea and am not going to read it) crapmeta to push her just seems uninteresting to me. I get that Tammy got upset about it and PV sort of took that as a bad sign, which once again, I dont really see anything terrible about. That said, I really dont know how I feel about PV. I thought some of his D1 posts look vague, waffly, and scummy. Hes sort of 180'd that Today although hes on the mastin wagon and mostly just pinging mastin over her waffles and BS and spending more effort pushing on Tammy.

So? Actually if mastin flips scum I could kind of see a PV/mastin team given their interactions and mastin mysteriously just acting as if PV isnt in this game anymore. But I dont feel too amazing about that, but if mastin flips scum Id definitely be looking at PV as a plausible busser on the current wagon. The other names...Orci, JSU, CF, Yggdra...I dont think CF and JSU are likely on a mastin team.

[AngryPidgeon]

Ya ok mastin. If you are still scum reading nacho after last night's posts Idk what to tell you.

[MastinSSK]

Carbon was an on and off scum read of your lord Rancid so I'm not quite sure why you think AP couldn't interpret his posting as scummy.

Because Rancid had a mental breakdown when he realized that F-16 was town yet posting the way he was.

Okay, better wording. I don't lie about my read. If I say I scumread you, I actually have somehow legitimately scumread you. Otherwise, I'm forced into a townread as scum.

And you don't treat reads on me the same way?

Yes, I do treat you the same way. If I were to get a legitimate scumread on you, I'd legitimately scumread you even as scum. A fact made impossible by this setup explicitly being 4v13 and a scum-me knowing my scumbuddies. Thus, as scum, I cannot be legitimately scumreading you. I can 'scumread' you if I felt the need to force a 1v1, but as discussed, that is something a scum me would NEVER do.

Fuck "you had no choice"; yes I fucking did. Fuck "you were desperate"; desperation is where I begin to shine as a scum player. (To be frank? One of the main reasons that I'm kinda lacking motive to play scumgames to 100% of my ability is that I've simply gotten

so damn

good

at being scum that unless faced with a serious obstacle, I basically go into cruise control.) And I don't mean 'suddenly win arguments'. I never win a proper 1v1. Ever. Look at every fucking scumgame of mine, ever. If it came down to a 1v1, I LOST. And always do. So fuck "you'd enter into it as a challenge", too, since there's a difference between doing something challenging and doing something SUICIDAL. (No, seriously. Search for any fucking game where it was 3p lylo and the voting came down explicitly to me vs. the other. As scum, I have always. Always. ALWAYS. Been on the losing end. Same fucking thing for 4p mylo; if it came to a 1v1, I lost. As just one example off the top of my head, Resistance Mafia. As another, the third-most-recent game I ICd was a scum-IC game where in 3p lylo, I got voted; I lost. There's a metric ton of examples, where if there's flexibility and doubt, I win, and where if there's zero breathing room and a straight clear-cut 50/50, I lose.)

Entering into a 1v1 is something that I hate. Hate. HATE. Doing as scum. It's why the break of the town in the Mastin Gambit came from me halfheartedly defending a mislynch, and obviously having done so in said halfhearted manner. (If I pulled the Mastin Gambit properly in Anything Goes at some point other than the gladiate, I suppose that counts as a break in it, too, butyeah. See above, on legitimately scumreading the slot. If as scum, you're 100% convinced there will be no fallout from a lynch...of course you're going to 1v1.)

But as town?
Bring it on.

[MastinSSK]

I want to talk to someone about Clyton. He is the nullest of null-reads to me.

Admittedly, Clyton

kinda

dropped off my radar, which you'd think would set off red flags about the slot and would normally do so, quite badly, but no, I'm actually townreading him. I felt the whole way he interacted with me was highly town, and overall, it left me quite satisfied about him. There's a niggle of paranoia here and there, I suppose, but he's been highly town. Additionally, the only reasons he's not been posting more are V/LA and neighborhood combo, which again, offer the perfect reason for his having dropped down.

So yes Im actually pretty stunned by your play in this game, its been a fairly earth shattering experience for my opinion of your playstyle.

You know what's been different about my play this game, from all others?

One singular thing.
One thing. Only one.

Effort. Care. I have put more time. devotion. heart and soul. into this game than any other player. That's it. Nothing else is different. However many hours you think you've put into the game, I can guaranfuckingtee I've put in more. Probably spending six hours a day on it, on average. No other game of mine has ever had that much of an investment in it. Ever. Not even close. Even when I made failed attempts at writing the grandiose cases in 2010, that couldn't have been more than a couple of hours a day.

But my sleep schedule was shot to hell because of this game. (I essentially had stomach problems throughout the weekend, likely attributed to my circadian rhythm having been thrown out of whack by an all-nighter.) And not just sleep. That's the midnight aspect of my posting. I've almost been late for work. When I already (for reasons unrelated to mafia) got dinged for that earlier, I risked it for this fucking game. And not just work. School, too. When I'm supposed to be working on problems for my college classes, I've been working on solving the fucking problem of THIS game. And not just there, either. I've tuned out television shows that I used to devote my 100% full attention to (e.g. Warehouse 13) in order to multitask...on this fucking game. I've left hastily on activities I used to linger around on, just so that I could snare that extra 5-10 minutes...for this fucking game.

And fuck this being called a long-winded AtE. It is a fucking emotional post, but there's zero fucks given about appealing to others. Because if they can't see that? If they can't see that fucking effort. And devote one second. One iota of thought. And ask themselves WHY. Why I would do that. As scum. Then there's no fucking need for an appeal, because there's no reaching them.

I've given games my 100% as scum. And those games? Involved me lurking a fair bit. Because activity, because noise, is not inherently scum-sided.

Pretty much the primary thing making me think you -could- be scum is burden of proficiency at this point but Im thinking this is just Mastin:SC/BRO::Mastin:AP/Nacho. Fuck, Nacho could even be scum, I dunno.

And again. AP's scum. So is Nacho.

[CarbonFiber]

I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town

This bugs me. I feel like you copied Tammy's reasoning. She has reason to feel that way about me but why would you?

I can go into more detail when I get home. I feel like we've played enough games together now that by mid day 2 I should feel pretty confident you're town. I also feel your read of me has been hedgy. your recent reads list doesn't alleviate that. what flips would solidify your read on me and why?

I think you are unlikely to be scum with Mastin. I'll have to think about Rancid. You derailed their lynch but the way they were appealing to you constantly and you sending them hugs feels like you are unlikely to be scum with them either and it'll help clear my mind.

The one time you had to read me, you struggled to get a read although had me as leaning town so I don't know if you expected the same results or better.

Your read on me is one thing that bugs me about you because I feel like I've been quite obviously town. For example, leading a wagon on Rancid and putting this much effort into collaborating with the town. I'm also the most obviously town player from our neighborhood. I am not sure why you'd expect to be read as obviously town when you haven't been. Most of it D1 has been me and Pie leading the game and later Nacho and D2 has been entirely me, you and Tammy trying to get on the same page and figuring out where to go from there and Nacho's latest posts pushing everyone towards a Mastin lynch. You are aware that your meta falls under different categories and some are easier to read as town than others. For example, AA: MFA when you led the lynch on Brian, you were fairly obviously town. I've meta'd you enough that I can catch all of your towngames but I don't know why you wouldn't want me to be certain in a game where you are not obvtown.

Your hesitation in reading me is one of the things that make me hesitate in reading you as top-tier town which is weird because you are hesitating on me because of

my

read on you.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Starting on 175 with a bunch of temporally scattered thoughts thrown in all about, 'cause hell if I know when anything happened at this point.

Red Gyarados: I think I like Brian's posting today even though it doesn't make much of an impression on me a lot of the time. His references to NS seem real enough for me, but I'm confused as to why NS wasn't posting anything himself even when he was apparently more around than he is now. There are little tidbits that bother me, like this one:

*I'm not going back to verify the points between Clyton and Mastin in their 1v1. But I'd probably lynch Clyton before Mastin (mostly because I'm still not scumreading Mastin and I think Clyton is likely to be scum). Also, Mastin is clearly winning their battle as Clyton seems mostly on the defensive to me.

This isn't really how you should look at things like this, and seems like an “I skimmed this” way of coming up with a solution to it. Despite the fact that I'm aware town skim because I've been doing it. For some reason I started feeling more like a spectator than a player at some point today, I guess the walls of doom and my disturbingly stable reads have been a factor there.

I'll revisit your case on him later. But it's kind of hard to agree with you when I've been agreeing with a lot of Mastin's and RBD's points this game.

Pie's case was presented pretty succinctly. I'd like to hear you give a more careful response to 3695. It's not like there is a big wall here that is difficult to muddle through, and it feels a little bit like trying to avoid giving an opinion.

Actually wondering if I should just throw his walls in thread and call it a day.

Can't fathom why neither of you is just doing this.

Because long posts insinuate effort and helps him hide behind the mist he likes to spread as scum (also because a lot of people don't like to read through his walls). I largely skim them and look for whatever points seem important.

Your read on mastin is becoming increasingly opaque.

I am not scumreading you and Mastin just based on connections. I thought your initial interactions with me was scummy. For instance, you start out with a buddying accusation on me and later try to find other reasons for scumreading me. It feels like you are trying to come up with reasons to justify a read rather than organically developing them. It is possible that you are conf-biased town seeing more and more new reasons to confbias your original read but I don't think that that is the case. For one, I can tell you are a sharp player in general, possibly objective, and able to see through the surface level to find deeper motivations. That's what I gathered from the way you play. You insistence on calling me scummy with new reasons each time feel like opportunism.

It would be easier to take this at face value if it weren't about yourself.

Bleh, I sort of touched on this in my last list. Basically, I agree. Emotionally, BRO's focus has looked town and the breakdown has felt town. Their read on me and general lack of progression (cause lol neighborhood?, except not really cause they haven't updated their reads either way) looks sketchy. And I still really don't like BRO hinting that him townreading me should make me trust his reads and him this game...constantly.

I don't know why the breakdown is not enough to earn a massive townread forever and ever. It's not like it's just one thing on a list of why they're town, it's basically an innocent child slip. Unless someone can tell me why it isn't.

Because I had independent scumreads on both of you. The way you both were trying to get out of scumreading each other and get PV lynched felt like you were setting the stage as unlikely partners while setting PV up.

As you'll probably see if I post my page of notes on the first page on AP's iso, I understand now where you're coming from here-- there were definitely some weird notes and timing changes in that whole affair and I get how you could be on this theory now. I think I expressed dubiousness of it earlier, but maybe it was just a thought I had while skimming. I am pretty temporally lost on when you statrted suggesting this, what with having kinda skimmed and now going through things again, but yeah~

I also find it hard to believe that you staunchly believe in Mastin being town even after he pushed you and scumread you for it. You are writing him off as bad town consistently no matter how hard and prolonged the push has been today.

But as AP proceeds to point out, I dunno what the hell this is.

I don't think Mastin-town reads me in a way that 1) isn't exactly correct (I haven't a great track record reading him as of late, for one), and 2) is so simplistic and has so much scumvantage in it. Mastin knows me well as a player, and one of the greatest flaws in my towngame is when I'm feeling too much pressure to read a townie as town: I'm less liable to push them as scum even if I'm getting strange feels from the slot because I don't want to be wrong. He's trying to back me into that corner as we speak: he talks about how town-Nacho would try to work with him and figure out his alignment as opposed to put him closer to death as his head's on the chopping block and votes me because supposedly that isn't happening, but my vote isn't on him. His vote is on me. I'm still engaging him. He's going on rants about dreams he had last night.

This whole post reassures me, particularly this bit. I'm not planning on continuing to quote all the threadspamming Nacho will proceed to do in the following pages (well I probably will with some of it but eh), but I'll summarize here. I think Nacho is town. He fooled me really fucking good in 169, and I said I wouldn't say this ever again, but I feel things here that Casso didn't do to me, there is a lot of genuine emotion going on, and a lot of the reason I pretty much One True Townread'ed him (only time I've ever been wrong on one of those I might add) in that game was the massive volume of quality analysis that really felt like trying to solve the game, not emotional things. I also agree that I felt his handling of the end of day 1 was very town.

Yes? Mastin has been pretty egotistical this game. I think half the reason shes scumreading me is because she cant admit to herself that Im being 100% honest about finding her play atrocious (and here Rg is supposed to be the atrocious pokemon) so shes just somehow convinced herself I must be scum in order to feel better about herself. I really do think that is a thing that is happening. Mastin will deny it, but thats part of the whole denial approach she seems to be stuck in this game.

Has there ever been a game where mastin, as engaged town, has really been so lost in herself while simultaneously attempting to keep everyone else's egos in check? I have trouble imagining her not making ego checks every once in a while when she says things like what she said to BRO earlier.

Yup, thank you.

[MastinSSK]

No, just not a scumtell, either. Lurking is lurking. It is player, context, and circumstance-dependent on what alignment (if any) to assign it. With Katsuki, it vaguely points towards Kats being town.

Oh and clicking that link brought me back to all the Replica CC nonsense which makes me want to lynch CF again >.>

Speaking of CF, and speaking of flavor...know something I just realized, AP?

I don't think you ever claimed your flavor for your abilities.
For that matter, I don't think orc did, either.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Like fucking hell that was. His post was entirely separated from the discussion on him, and blatantly obviously so.

Something I will say here, though.
Is that I'm really, really sick.

Really freakin' sick.
Of people saying that they know what my scumgame is.
Without focusing on what actually drives my scumgame.

I say this with all love Mastin, but in the games, I don't really care. I care more about figuring out IF you are scum.
But, would love to see an MD thread titled "The Driving Forces Behind Mastin's Scumgame- 2014 Edition".

I'd make it right now if it wasn't so self-serving to me for ongoing games, but sure. You can have it. Because my scumgame has improved by leaps and bounds as of recently. The basics of it, though, are quite pathetically simple. The aim of a scum me is to get a scum win as fast as possible. Generally, this involves minimal bussing, and also minimal spotlight on scum players. I may distance or even bus-vote a scum player (it's become a necessity with people wising up to my no-bussing meta), but I avoid making a spectacle out of it, because spectacles draw very-much-unwanted attention. I suppose you could sum it up with a single sentence:
The main driving factor of a scum Mastin is to place town players (not scum players) in the spotlight.

Because while you'd think that could invoke a "for worse", it's near-universally "for better", since townVtown fights are a given natural. Keep the town players fighting town players while I blend into the background? Game, set, match. It's how I won Paranoia, it's how I won Book of Shadows, it's how I ALMOST won Attack on Titan, it's how I've basically dominated nearly every scumgame I've been in--by letting town players fight town players, while I avoid taking the heat...or IF I take the heat, having it not lead back to my scumbuddies.

It's the conviction that she's showing!

Conviction's not exactly a towntell of mine, you know. I can show 'absolute belief' as scum. The difference isn't in the belief, but how the belief was reached and how it's been pushed. (For instance, aside from legitimate scumreads, if it looks like I reached the belief, really, really reached it and didn't simply decide it was a good idea to have it? Town. If I simply decided it was a good read to have? Scum. Which is why I say that alignment be damned, I push whoever I please. It's the motive that differentiates it. As scum, because it's something I wanted to do; as town, because it's something I

need

to do.)

The only thing that makes me hesitate is mastin is a much craftier scum player than I am and would probably be able to sound like she has this conviction way more naturally than I think I would be able, but it just sounds so real.[/quote] If I'm that crafty a scum player, why the fuck has there been suspicion on me not only all of today, but also most of yesterday?

Answers of, "because we caught you?", "because that's how the wind blew", "because this game was too skilled", or similar simply aren't fucking acceptable, since they fly in the fucking face of just those damn words, of me being a crafty scum player.

I'm not saying it's impossible to run up a scum-me. I AM saying that (assuming I have the time to plan and execute a plan--which this game, I most certainfuckingly have) when a scuMastin is run up, it is done with design and intent. For instance, in Attack on Titan, I was the least-valuable scum player. I set things up so that ideally, we'd have a perfect win...but ALSO so that IF a scum player were to die, it'd be me...
...AND that it wouldn't incriminate either of my scumbuddies. My reads, their design, their whole orchestration (because my play as scum is a fucking artform), was such that I had painted a highly-favorable picture for the scumteam of that game.

Which, again, is why I ask about it. I control. I DOMINATE. The game as scum. I'm in the background, rather than the foreground, BEING the one controlling how the winds blow, helping to determine the skill of the players in the game, analyzing them, predicting them, and setting them up. I don't shout, "Look at me! Look at me! Looky, looky, look this way!" as scum. (That's not to say I can't have a strong presence. Always do, even as scum. But that's another aspect of the difference between whimsy-me and scum-me. Whimsy-me commands attention to be the hero. A scum-me requests attention as an act, to play a part that is

expected

of me. So while a town-me will be all whimsical about the 'lookit, lookit!', a scum me is rehearsing a script.)

[The Fox and the Hound]

And I hate how she talks about her emotions instead of shows them.

I think this is a lot about what bothers me about mastin in general rather than in this particular game, and lo and behold she often flips town anyway. Maybe this is me doing the I'm-never-right thing.

I was townreading Pie for the same reasons and the read going stale is reasonable. BUT, he's still been town-town-town in the neighborhood so I guess you should just wait for him to return.

I thought Yggdra's entrance was super obvtown as well in case I never vocalized this, but it's a little odd that they are just neighborhooding now when they so desperately wanted to lynch mastin earlier and seemingly still do. Although they do decide to be a thing two posts after this, I feel like they have slipped back out of existence in the interim iirc. Not gonna quote them but 4412 and 4414 are basically what I'm saying I expect, and if pie was expressing something resembling frustrated apathy by now I could understand him dropping off but it seems like the fervor is still there so why are you not yelling? Still would put them in my upper echelon of town reads.

Another concern I had about Mastin was that his whole development into the town leader persona felt like he was telling a narrative about himself which was the same thing he did in ETL's resistance where I was scum with him.

This is alarming.

Another concern I had about Mastin was that his whole development into the town leader persona felt like he was telling a narrative about himself which was the same thing he did in ETL's resistance where I was scum with him.

That was where part of my resolve that he was scum at the time started to falter. (I wasn't joking when I told Pere my read on him has changed every five minutes.) But I was like would he, as scum, construct this whole narrative?

Yeah, scum love noise. But wouldn't he create a narrative? He has in the past:

I quite like the narrative that I built.

You might be thinking about the narrative showing a masterful RC-SC-DS scumteam. But I'm not talking about that narrative. That narrative, while masterful, is not the true piece of artwork, here. I've told a story, here, a story that involves that story, and that story, that masterful piece of writing I consider to be a piece of art, which I worked hard and long to tell? Is the story of Me. Mastin. Slowly but progressively. Growing back into being me. You can see the narrative grow over time.

The posts start out random, with little order to them. Guesswork. Fragmentations. Representing my broken mind. But as the narrative of my catch-up continues, you progressively can find me growing back into my role. I slowly find a direction. The pieces become more focused. I begin to hone in on things. And then, I make a discovery. A discovery that in a game would cause me to "flip the switch", and from there, I go into top-form. With everything being right on the point. Everything tying together. Instead of being the story, I begin to tell a story of my own. (Thus, why the RC-SC-DS scumteam story is part of the narrative, but isn't the entirety of it.)

And at the end, there's the realization. That I've grown. That I'm back. That I am who I am meant to be. That I've gone from the slums and picked myself back up, into the person I really am.



...And THAT, my friends, is why I'm a storyteller. (I love writing. ) Most people seem to think you can only tell a story in certain mediums, like a book, like a movie, like a comic. Maybe in a game from the flavor side of things. But me? I can tell a story INSIDE the game, entirely separated from whatever flavor there is. I told the story of RC-SC-DS, but that story is within the story I created of ME.

And I think that's where the true skill of me comes in as a player. In that while other players can see individual "characters" involved...I can see the entire "story" of a game play out in my mind.

It might seem confusing, but it's really awesome once you grasp the concepts I'm talking about.

Eagerly awaiting some acknowledgement of this from mastin in the upcoming pages, I say this not knowing if that happens or not.

[AngryPidgeon]

You also got ran up in ny 172 due to apathy. Not planned. Just you not giving a shit. Which is a large part why I'm upset at you. And you probably are town for actually giving more than zero shits about this while that went down. DV back me ip