Mini 1567 - Such Unusual Pretermen... ...Evil Too!

[Kagami]

Look, I don't know why you think WIFOM is some magical phrase that somehow makes any evidence null, but here's why Who is not gambiting:

He would have to pretend to dodge NKs all game. If there's no doc, he's suicided.
He didn't need to claim PR to bus josh.
If there's no vig or other gunsmith miller, his claim will be very suspicious.
He did it so early, he ran the risk of counterclaim.
He claimed a role-changing mechanic. If there turns out not to be one, which will become evident fairly soon, it would be probable that he lied.

There is no "WIFOM" in any of this. He would have taken an enormous risk that would likely leave the scum-team with only one player. As the game continues, it will be very obvious what the truth is. Painting Who as a possible lynch is silly.

The only way I see Who as possible scum is if he's a Usurper, which seems extremely unlikely.

[Kagami]

At the very least, I would be expecting you to support Geist's mass-claim plan given your beliefs.

[Empking]

Lowercase replaces Who.

[Empking]

Vote Count Seventeen: Devon Clotted Cream

Zephyrus (3) - Juls, Belisarius, Cho
Kagami (3) - geists, FormerFish, LoudmouthLee
FormerFish (2) - Kagami, Nobody Special

Not Voting: Zephyrus, MTD, Lowercase

With Eleven alive, it is Six to lynch

(expired on 2014-05-17 13:57:32)

[LoudmouthLee]

Look, I don't know why you think WIFOM is some magical phrase that somehow makes any evidence null, but here's why Who is not gambiting:

He would have to pretend to dodge NKs all game. If there's no doc, he's suicided.
He didn't need to claim PR to bus josh.
If there's no vig or other gunsmith miller, his claim will be very suspicious.
He did it so early, he ran the risk of counterclaim.
He claimed a role-changing mechanic. If there turns out not to be one, which will become evident fairly soon, it would be probable that he lied.

There is no "WIFOM" in any of this. He would have taken an enormous risk that would likely leave the scum-team with only one player. As the game continues, it will be very obvious what the truth is. Painting Who as a possible lynch is silly.

The only way I see Who as possible scum is if he's a Usurper, which seems extremely unlikely.

1) Assumption - As mafia in the past, I had *successfully* discredit a cop before by NOT targeting him and letting him live. Even after the doctor had died.
2) Untrue - He lied in his claim to start the bus on Josh.
3) Leading - So why are you assuming that there is one, as evidenced by your first post?
4) Inadmissible - He claimed two different roles.
5) Untrue - He claimed a role changing mechanic in his "lie" post. Not his "actual role" post.

[Juls]

Kagami, see, the more you talk the more I am thinking Who could have fake claimed. And I don't think that is what you are driving at.

He would have to pretend to dodge NKs all game. If there's no doc, he's suicided.

Hate to say it, but...WIFOM. If he is town, scum could leave him around for this very reason. If he is scum he can say scum leave him around for this very reason.

He didn't need to claim PR to bus josh.

No he didn't. But we aren't talking about what he "didn't" do.

He did it so early, he ran the risk of counterclaim.

Then how would we feel about Josh right now? And we would have lost his real CC.

I am still not sure if he was faking or not but there is definitely WIFOM in what you are saying.

P-edit: Looks like he has a replacement. Maybe they will shed some light on this.

[Kagami]

@geists: Changed my mind, I support mass-claim. This is ridiculous.

[Lowercase]

Ok, I'm here. If anyone has any questions about night actions or so forth feel free to ask, I'll be reading up a bit. I don't really understand why kag is receiving flack for this vig speculation. Just to reiterate though I was a gunsmith night zero; I am now something completely different. I got two role PM's and everything.

[Lowercase]

This mass-claim thing seems like a fishing attempt, though.

[Lowercase]

Actually, that was a really dumb way to phrase it. What I mean is that I see no reason to mass-claim.

[LoudmouthLee]

VOTE: Josh_B

I tracked him and found that he shot the nonexistent intro townie.

Just checked with Empking, I do not know what I will flip as so my breadcrumb might not work.

Roleclaim: N0 Cop

I investigated Josh_B and got guilty. Also, my role changed overnight into something totally different for no apparent reason (Hence me not knowing what I will flip). The second role was much more flavory and more pick-related than the first.

I was lying.

Real claim: N0 Gunsmith

Gunsmith guilty on Josh rather than Cop. Meaning his VT claim just confirmed him as scum.
Everything about the changing role and not being sure what I'd flip was true. I left the breadcrumb of "Josh

shot

the intro townie" and "horsification

gun

" to let town know "Gunsmith guilty on Josh" in case I died and had an informative flip. Also, my new role is significantly weaker than gunsmith, bordering on VT-useless.

Faked the cop guilty in order to avoid giving him the out of claiming vig or something unless he actually was vig or something. But he wasn't.

Also, Juls asked me to flavorclaim earlier, the N0 gunsmith was a totally ordinary gunsmith PM nothing to do with characters, then the unexpected rolechange was more flavory, but with no explanation of the change.

vezo, so in your opinion the optimal play here is to leave scumJosh alive and lynch townWho because he has been basically vanillized?

Who, does anything you got about the switch give you any info on what happened?

It said my role had changed, no info as to why. Given how my gunbearer PM had completely standard gunbearer flavor and my non-gunbearer PM had character flavor, I'm guessing it was just a hidden part to my role rather than another role doing it to me. Unless there's a characterizer or something in the game. It's strange, because I would have thought that I would be told I was an N0 gunsmith rather than a gunsmith, but it may have been some other condition, like investigating scum, which caused the change. Or possibly it could have been another person.

Also, I'm not totally vanilla, I'm just much weaker than a gunsmith.

Why are you using the terms "gunbearer" and "gunsmith" as though they are synonyms?

Mistake which I didn't see until you pointed it out. I was either explaining the rules to or playing a game of popcorn mafia in chat at the same time (I checked the logs, it happened from 23:54 to 12:08, EST, and my post was posted at 12:11 EST, meaning I would have been typing it during that time), and must have been thinking about that and accidentally said "bearer" instead of "smith".

Quoted everything I disliked about who's play:

Please come clean and tell us your N1 role and choices.

[Lowercase]

Hm, I'd claim if people really want to mass-claim but I don't really understand why you dislike who's play.

Thought-experiment: You are a gunsmith with a N0 guilty; what do you do?
Imo, claim a cop guilty and fess up when the dude claims non-vig is basically ideal play. I would have started out from the first post with the cop guilty personally but I have a (short) history of over-zealous claims.

[Lowercase]

I didn't do anything N1 though, I feel fine claiming that.

[LoudmouthLee]

Your role changed, and you did nothing N1, and you won't claim? Your character already claimed, and it's seriously questionable at best. The only thing we know for sure is that your slot had knowledge of the goons alignment. I'm leaning heavily towards mafia bus.

[Lowercase]

That's simply ridiculous. I don't know how to even address that really. Do you think Who's play was bad considering Gunsmith guilty? If Who were scum, why wouldn't he expect to be counterclaimed? Why claim gunsmith at all when there was no reason to suspect a vig?

[geists]

Your role changed, and you did nothing N1, and you won't claim? Your character already claimed, and it's seriously questionable at best. The only thing we know for sure is that your slot had knowledge of the goons alignment. I'm leaning heavily towards mafia bus.

We're not leaning that direction. We feel pretty confident that scum are in {Kagami, NS, Zeph}.

[Lowercase]

I'm not totally up to date but what do you think about Bel?

[Cho]

LoudmouthLee is being silly or scum.

[Nobody Special]

So.

I've been debating on whether to mention this or not, and, well.... here goes:

I have a night action that changes players. I do not know if it changes their alignment. I know specifically what it does, but that makes no sense to me, therefore, it's as good as an unknown action.

I haven't used it yet, because I'm frankly rather apprehensive of what may happen.

Any further answers regarding my role are going to have to be filtered through Empking, because I don't want modkilling for quoting. So, ask away, but be patient.

Also, if I use it, I have to give it to someone. So it's potentially confirmable, tomorrow. Also also, I'm Town.

[Lowercase]

That's a little funny, I hypothesized that such a role was used on me N0. Does it make people into their picks? Because that's what happened to me.

[Kagami]

Does your new role seem in any way related to your flavor?

[Kagami]

Your role changed, and you did nothing N1, and you won't claim? Your character already claimed, and it's seriously questionable at best. The only thing we know for sure is that your slot had knowledge of the goons alignment. I'm leaning heavily towards mafia bus.

We're not leaning that direction. We feel pretty confident that scum are in {Kagami, NS, Zeph}.

Why has fish left suspicion-land?

[Nobody Special]

Does it make people into their picks?

No, it doesn't seem to work that way.

And to reiterate, I haven't used it yet. At all.

[Formerfish]

NS, I need you to go into more detail.

[Nobody Special]

I would prefer that you ask questions, if that makes sense?

If it helps, the word 'alternate' (or a form of it) is rather key.