Tales of You (Endgame)

[The Fox and the Hound]

It occurs to me that I should stop getting upset about POE things when I've been doing them too to some degree :/

[The Fox and the Hound]

Perhaps people will re-evaluate us post-probable Cupcake scumflip. As much as I hate talking about associative tells without a flip I think he's pretty much claiming scum at this point, so y'all might want to start asking yourselves if we've been bussing him all game. Even if we haven't been very forceful, we've tried repeatedly to argue that the meta townreads were bullshit and to draw attention to someone who was visibly avoiding attention.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Why should it be understandable?

From a gamestate perspective, your picking me to engage as a suspect here looks strange, but maybe it's because I'm here to reply to you and nobody else is active right now.

???

Because at the moment I'm in an unassailable town position - role corroborated and a claimed cop innocent on me with a tracker backing up that some sort of night action actually happened. My shelf life is short unless something massive happens to the game state, which I don't expect.

This is fair, though I don't know whether DV is fully caught up enough to have seen that yet? Maybe he is? I didn't mention it to him or anything.

Ffery plays with DV in game. DV has low presence and engagement for much of it and is mislynched.

Ffery was dead long before you were mislynched and that had nothing to do with her read (mostly Syr's read) of you in that game.

Ffery plays with DV in another game. DV starts off ok, but ends up having no presence or engagement and is mislynched.

A mislynch FFery wasn't in on, iirc. My head was mostly trying to sort the star-crosssed lovers situation for the latter half of that game.

I don't feel like these caveats should actually change anything?

Maybe not. But, his points are no reason to townread him either, and I would kinda like it if there were some decent and recent reasons to think you guys are town.

DV's points are part of the reason why I don't feel confident about reading him. It was a relief that you are part of the hydra, despite your scum game. :/

This is a read I'd totally defer to someone I think is town who has a track record of reading preferably both of you accurately.

If F-16 ever comes up for air I'd like his thoughts about this interaction.

[Katsuki]

I've been so tied up with my crusade of AP that I really never did ask: for those who want me dead, who are my buddies?

[Just Sheep Us]

Perhaps people will re-evaluate us post-probable Cupcake scumflip. As much as I hate talking about associative tells without a flip I think he's pretty much claiming scum at this point, so y'all might want to start asking yourselves if we've been bussing him all game. Even if we haven't been very forceful, we've tried repeatedly to argue that the meta townreads were bullshit and to draw attention to someone who was visibly avoiding attention.

you don't really believe this do you

[The Fox and the Hound]

DV's points are part of the reason why I don't feel confident about reading him. It was a relief that you are part of the hydra, despite your scum game. :/

This is a read I'd totally defer to someone I think is town who has a track record of reading preferably both of you accurately.

You (if you're ffery) usually get me right given enough time, don't you? Maybe I just don't give you enough time when I'm scum.

Mmhm. Well, Nacho is being a dumb, so.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Perhaps people will re-evaluate us post-probable Cupcake scumflip. As much as I hate talking about associative tells without a flip I think he's pretty much claiming scum at this point, so y'all might want to start asking yourselves if we've been bussing him all game. Even if we haven't been very forceful, we've tried repeatedly to argue that the meta townreads were bullshit and to draw attention to someone who was visibly avoiding attention.

you don't really believe this do you

I can dream can't I?

[AngryPidgeon]

I don't think JSU's role alone justifies a miller

I don't have too much to say since I agreed with your points in general and you haven't said anything that hasnt been touched on at least already.

I tend to agree with this, especially since CF doesnt actually have a night action, so he'd turn up as "scum?" to JSU anyways even if he werent a miller.

But Im not convinced CF is town in the first place so YMMV

[AngryPidgeon]

Actually I guess he could have a night action.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Actually I guess he could have a night action.

Neighborizer?

[The Fox and the Hound]

^I've actually been slightly confused the whole game about whether that was a day or night action

[Just Sheep Us]

its a day action

[Just Sheep Us]

game started on 3/31 just after midnight and we didnt get the neighborhood until 24 hours later

[Just Sheep Us]

Bro here. Can we avoid a hammer until I post a full VCA? I'll probably only do day 1, since the mastin lynch day 2 was a foregone conclusion, and therefore scum weren't really making meaningful decisions the way they had to during day 1.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

DV's points are part of the reason why I don't feel confident about reading him. It was a relief that you are part of the hydra, despite your scum game. :/

This is a read I'd totally defer to someone I think is town who has a track record of reading preferably both of you accurately.

You (if you're ffery) usually get me right given enough time, don't you? Maybe I just don't give you enough time when I'm scum.

Mmhm. Well, Nacho is being a dumb, so.[/quote]

Do I? Maybe? I don't really think I've had a stellar, strong read of you in any of our prior games. I'm predisposed to think you're scum, and usually wind up questioning that regardless of your alignment.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Not strong, I suppose. Actually I should probably take it back entirely, looking back at things you pretty much just always end up thinking I'm town and with bigger question marks in the cases where I am actually town >.<
Guess my memory was clouded by feeling like you always get me right as town eventually, which is true but not the actual pattern.
Maybe this game will help you in the future

[CarbonFiber]

Maybe not. But, his points are no reason to townread him either, and I would kinda like it if there were some decent and recent reasons to think you guys are town.

DV's points are part of the reason why I don't feel confident about reading him. It was a relief that you are part of the hydra, despite your scum game. :/

This is a read I'd totally defer to someone I think is town who has a track record of reading preferably both of you accurately.

If F-16 ever comes up for air I'd like his thoughts about this interaction.

I am focusing mostly on DV since I'm pretty bad at reading Cephrir and am deferring the read to FT.

What I initially found concerning about DV was that his take on the interaction between Titan and I wasn't really illuminating or helpful. I tend to scumhunt questions other players ask me and seeing how they are making me respond, and my responses to DV pretty much amounted to "no, I meant this, not that" which felt like very surface level questioning. I also didn't like the focus on a long-resolved conflict and it gave off the air of wanting to continue the conflict by bringing up quotes said in the heat of the moment as opposed to asking what my current thoughts are.

As for the interaction with you, I liked the scumhunting of you when seen in a vacuum and I like the push as to why you were accusing him of not having a presence when he didn't have it in previous games as well. But, what I didn't like was the focus on scumhunting you in the first place considering you were confirmed by one of Fox's townreads (AP). I get JSU confirmed AP, and I didn't buy it either even though JSU is a strong townread but I feel that the circumstances are different and given Fox's view of the gamestate, he should be treating you as near-confirmed town and looking elsewhere.

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to with the noise benefiting The Fox and the Hound. I certainly didn't feel that the interaction between me and Titan was noise except for my initial shocked reaction and a few more posts after that. But once I returned and started interacting with Tammy more smoothly, I was able to solidify a read more firmly and I think she was able to as well and I wouldn't classify my later posts or any of Tammy's posts as noise but rather as productive and useful discussion. So, I am not sure why you consider it noise in the first place (save my initial reaction which I admit was noisy), let alone discuss how Ceph and DV are using it. I don't get your definition of "noise" since I feel like you enjoyed a lot of the noise in the game from Rancid while calling out other players on being noisy.

I do think that the interactions between Mastin, Rancid, AP created a lot of noise and inflated the size of the day and FoxHound sort of flew under the radar there. However, I also like DV's latest catchup walls and it feels like he is genuinely trying to figure out the game. I've scheduled a more extensive meta-dive on DV that should hopefully make things clearer.

----

@ DV, if you have info that there are multiple roleblockers in the game, I think that makes a crucial difference in whether or not Katsuki is lynched today so you should definitely out it.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am focusing mostly on DV since I'm pretty bad at reading Cephrir and am deferring the read to FT.

This seems like a hasty generalization after one game, in which you were reading me correctly at first and then switched.

The thing that seems kind of like information here, that you asked for at the end, is that we can't be roleblocked by players with a certain attribute. Admittedly, blah blah Cabd blah, but that suggests multiple roleblockers. I'd be more sympathetic if it didn't seem like there were two around already.

[The Fox and the Hound]

(At least, I imagine that's why DV has been a little weird about that issue)

[CarbonFiber]

I am focusing mostly on DV since I'm pretty bad at reading Cephrir and am deferring the read to FT.

This seems like a hasty generalization after one game, in which you were reading me correctly at first and then switched.

The thing that seems kind of like information here, that you asked for at the end, is that we can't be roleblocked by players with a certain attribute. Admittedly, blah blah Cabd blah, but that suggests multiple roleblockers. I'd be more sympathetic if it didn't seem like there were two around already.

NY169 was probably one of the worse tunnels I've gotten into on your slot lynching the player that replaced you after multiple days worth of tunneling and thinking that a lot of what you said couldn't come from town.

A lot of your posts here pinged me oddly for some reason or the other but I'm mostly ignoring those pings because I got similar ones to your posts in NY169. I don't know if it is way you phrase things or how you arrive at your conclusions, or the tone of your questions that inspires paranoia in me but I am setting it aside this game because you are in a hydra and I can still try to get a read on your partner.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Maybe not. But, his points are no reason to townread him either, and I would kinda like it if there were some decent and recent reasons to think you guys are town.

DV's points are part of the reason why I don't feel confident about reading him. It was a relief that you are part of the hydra, despite your scum game. :/

This is a read I'd totally defer to someone I think is town who has a track record of reading preferably both of you accurately.

If F-16 ever comes up for air I'd like his thoughts about this interaction.

I am focusing mostly on DV since I'm pretty bad at reading Cephrir and am deferring the read to FT.

What I initially found concerning about DV was that his take on the interaction between Titan and I wasn't really illuminating or helpful. I tend to scumhunt questions other players ask me and seeing how they are making me respond, and my responses to DV pretty much amounted to "no, I meant this, not that" which felt like very surface level questioning. I also didn't like the focus on a long-resolved conflict and it gave off the air of wanting to continue the conflict by bringing up quotes said in the heat of the moment as opposed to asking what my current thoughts are.

As for the interaction with you, I liked the scumhunting of you when seen in a vacuum and I like the push as to why you were accusing him of not having a presence when he didn't have it in previous games as well. But, what I didn't like was the focus on scumhunting you in the first place considering you were confirmed by one of Fox's townreads (AP). I get JSU confirmed AP, and I didn't buy it either even though JSU is a strong townread but I feel that the circumstances are different and given Fox's view of the gamestate, he should be treating you as near-confirmed town and looking elsewhere.

From that perspective I liked it too - it's one of the few times DV has pushed anyone in this game that I can recall. It seems odd given his apparent understanding of the game state and opinion about the players involved in the claims, though. It may be that I'm mixing up Ceph and DV if they don't agree on AP, BroDesp and cupcakepanda.

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to with the noise benefiting The Fox and the Hound. I certainly didn't feel that the interaction between me and Titan was noise except for my initial shocked reaction and a few more posts after that. But once I returned and started interacting with Tammy more smoothly, I was able to solidify a read more firmly and I think she was able to as well and I wouldn't classify my later posts or any of Tammy's posts as noise but rather as productive and useful discussion. So, I am not sure why you consider it noise in the first place (save my initial reaction which I admit was noisy), let alone discuss how Ceph and DV are using it. I don't get your definition of "noise" since I feel like you enjoyed a lot of the noise in the game from Rancid while calling out other players on being noisy.

A lot of players reacted during that process, and I didn't find most of it useful for sorting any of them, and that's why I called it noise. You two sorting each other - not noise. Nacho trying to help you sort each other - not noise. Other people saying omg that's scummy, omg that's towny as spectators not so much.

Levity in a game, especially on day 1 is good for more reasons than just what it says about the player who is apparently relaxed and having fun. And I did both develop reads on mac and rancid from those interactions and felt like the game itself was more enjoyable for their back and forth.

I do think that the interactions between Mastin, Rancid, AP created a lot of noise and inflated the size of the day and FoxHound sort of flew under the radar there. However, I also like DV's latest catchup walls and it feels like he is genuinely trying to figure out the game. I've scheduled a more extensive meta-dive on DV that should hopefully make things clearer.

At the time I posted what DV objected to, those catchup walls weren't in the thread.

----

@ DV, if you have info that there are multiple roleblockers in the game, I think that makes a crucial difference in whether or not Katsuki is lynched today so you should definitely out it.

Agree, if DV thinks the info actually has bearing on the reasons for lynching/not lynching katsuki.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

CF, we have a neighborhood. I assume that was your doing!

AFAIK it's just Beli/Me in the Rebirth game, though.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am focusing mostly on DV since I'm pretty bad at reading Cephrir and am deferring the read to FT.

This seems like a hasty generalization after one game, in which you were reading me correctly at first and then switched.

The thing that seems kind of like information here, that you asked for at the end, is that we can't be roleblocked by players with a certain attribute. Admittedly, blah blah Cabd blah, but that suggests multiple roleblockers. I'd be more sympathetic if it didn't seem like there were two around already.

NY169 was probably one of the worse tunnels I've gotten into on your slot lynching the player that replaced you after multiple days worth of tunneling and thinking that a lot of what you said couldn't come from town.

To date I'm still baffled that my slot was lynched after I volunteered to be lynched over Casso. I think that should have been viewed as an innocent child claim. I'm good, but not THAT good.

From that perspective I liked it too - it's one of the few times DV has pushed anyone in this game that I can recall. It seems odd given his apparent understanding of the game state and opinion about the players involved in the claims, though. It may be that I'm mixing up Ceph and DV if they don't agree on AP, BroDesp and cupcakepanda.

I'm not completely with the thread of this conversation/the relevance but I think we were basically on the same page with those three before the claims fiasco (JSU probably town, AP nullish, Cupcake leaning scum); now, I'm pretty sold on lynching Cupcake, while he's a bit more dubious than I am, and he mentioned feeling paranoid about JSU this morning which is probably something I need to talk to him about. Given that I think the last few pages have been at least kind of productive for us I'm no longer ready to end the day yet either.

Agree, if DV thinks the info actually has bearing on the reasons for lynching/not lynching katsuki.

You might need to read 6117 again, unless DV has secretly noticed something else that he's not telling me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You might need to read 6117 again, unless DV has secretly noticed something else that he's not telling me.

Yeah I caught it later, thanks.

[The Fox and the Hound]

ffery's read is based on TWO players' activity in your slot. It's not just you with the low activity and lack of engagement. If you were playing solo, I don't think I'd have the same concerns, or at least not to the same degree.

This is fair enough, and I think I got too worked up last night. There are still some things that bug me, but I don't feel as strongly about it looking over the exchange again now.

So yeah I get that I'm being bad, but what does that have to do with reading me? Considering you've actually argued in previous games that, if anything, more posts = scum DV, I don't get it. And it's not like I haven't provided enough posts for someone to get a read on me.

why did you tell everyone to be cruel and shit if you didn't come through on your promise to ~~changeeeee~~ if this was how you were going to react the first time someone followed your advice?

This doesn't have anything to do with that.

Nacho includes us in his scumlist.
Ceph posts an IGMEOU smiley face (I really miss seeing that term used in mafia games btw)
Nacho tells Ceph to tell me to do things.

I think that pretty strongly implies that me not doing things is at least part of the reason why we're in Nacho's scumgroup. It's basically saying, hey, if you don't want to be in our scumgroup you better get DV to do stuff!

That's an actual read, not being cruel or whatever.

This is fair, though I don't know whether DV is fully caught up enough to have seen that yet? Maybe he is? I didn't mention it to him or anything.

I knew that.

But, what I didn't like was the focus on scumhunting you in the first place considering you were confirmed by one of Fox's townreads (AP). I get JSU confirmed AP, and I didn't buy it either even though JSU is a strong townread but I feel that the circumstances are different and given Fox's view of the gamestate, he should be treating you as near-confirmed town and looking elsewhere.

I think that normally I would just assume Stalin-town for the rest of the game since I've had a strong townread on them for much of it and AP has confirmed them, but in my very inconsistently successful attempt to change things I've decided that I don't want to just assume something is the case and not further investigate it, especially if I see something that doesn't make sense to me, as there have been games where something has just been very fundamentally wrong about my reads/assumptions and where I may or may not have benefited from more careful examination (and also one in particular where I wrongly ignored slight niggles because of what I thought were good reasons at the time!). If Stalin

is

scum, then that means that AP likely is too (unless weird godfather role), which then would indicate JSU-scum (unless even weirder godfather role), which although is not something I was thinking as the case neither now or last night, if it is the case, then it pretty much means we're in for a certain loss, doesn't it?

There's also the problem of lack of possible scumreads.

The only non- previously strong townreads I have are Magenta, Cupcake, Red Gyarados, which of course doesn't cover a scumteam. So, of course I'm wrong somewhere.

@ DV, if you have info that there are multiple roleblockers in the game, I think that makes a crucial difference in whether or not Katsuki is lynched today so you should definitely out it.

What Ceph claimed is accurate. It's really more of an implication that anything else, but I do think having a PM that says you won't be blocked by any X roles that try to suggest that there exists at least one roleblocker of characteristic X, and at least one that's not of characteristic X. However, because I think Cupcake is scummy otherwise, is one of my few remaining non-strong-townreads, and that if there is an extra roleblocker or two they didn't necessarily roleblock cupcake, and even roleblocked-cupcake could probably still be scum, I think it's most likely I'll still want him lynched after I've gone through the things I want to go through.