Organic Chemistry [GAME OVER]

[mastin2]

Uh-huh. Sure I don't.

This is a scum response people.

Eh, it used to be one, then I got more expressive as scum and lost some expressiveness as town and gained a lot of snark and a fair amount of deadpan and a MASSIVE amount of bitterness and cynicism and whatnot and began to channel a little bit more of those who had that kind of a response to things like that.

I'm scum when I'm disagreeing with you, but when you want my vote or cooperation you start treating me like town.

Except I always treat my scumreads as if they're town? Like, I don't think I am wrong, here, but if I were, then you and I being on the wrong page would be bad and I'd want you to be working with me and to work with you and treating you like scum is generally counter-productive to that.

If I hadn't hopped on LC I doubt anyone would have had their attention drawn to the posts in question that made the wagon happen.

Well aside from this being utterly false (as proven by the fact that I saw it and only didn't comment on it because your vote spoke first), you're deflecting the points I raised rather than addressing them.

And the wagon had been stagnating, I wasn't hopping off "as it was gaining steam".

Know when the Lying Cat wagon began forming?

Yesterday.

No, seriously.

VOTE: Lying Cat
Doduo, mastin and I are in for it and I think we're all town. Majiffy is in for it and I sort of feel good about that even if there is a chance hes bussing here.

One freakin day ago.
ONE.
DAY.

Five players haven't checked in since that time. (Including...Lying Cat, the wagoned. So there's no reaction from the wagonee, even.)
Out of 17.

How, exactly, was the wagon stalling?

[PeregrineV]

quack

[mastin2]

Because what have you done to push LC's lynch other than having placed your vote down? Aside from maybe a one-liner about "Read LC's iso"? Where's the case, the push, the drive to lynch LC? Where's the strong cases being raised up? Things townJiffy does. Things even a scum Majiffy will do, but on town players. Things that you've done for some players...but not LC.

"Things Majiffy does as either alignment, shockingly missing! How scummy!"

No. Things Majiffy will do towards scumreads-as-town absent,
AND which Majiffy-as-scum will do towards town players but typically not scumbuddies.

I.e., your interaction with LC is

EXACTLY

the type of interaction scuMajiffy has with a scumbuddy.

Prove me wrong by voting LC and supporting that wagon like you said you did.

[Majiffy]

squawk more bullshit from mastin squawk

[Majiffy]

Can we all do a team building exercise?

Lets lynch our favorite reason for lynching the scum cat and then vote them.

I was about to agree with Jiffy, but then I looked at Chairlizard's ISO.

"I was about to agree with Majiffy's obv joke post that shows I am not paying attention to the gamestate, interested in scumhunting, or otherwise worth a damn"

[mastin2]

"I was about to agree with Majiffy's obv joke post that shows I am not paying attention to the gamestate, interested in scumhunting, or otherwise worth a damn"

(There is a distinct lack of LC vote in this post*.)

Spoiler: *

Basically, I have no doubts that Majiffy's reasoning here is real. I sincerely doubt he saw this as town and has played it the way he has. Instead, I think he saw it as scum, and decided to distance with LC. If LC went down, he could claim credit for having started the wagon; if LC didn't go down, no harm done. It also puts him in the position where if an LC wagon DOES begin to form, Majiffy holds the power to help dismantle it, by hopping off and robbing it of a vote.

Now enter the talks about Saki. Several players show interest in wagoning there, even if not voting. I know this to be a fact; many people have had that Sakiscumread. So a wagon on there would become viable...especially with Doduo having jumpstarted it. So, then Majiffy joins it. It can draw attention because multiple people have Saki as a scumread. It can offer a rival wagon to LC, because some on the LC wagon also have a Sakiscumread. Thus, it can offer competition to the LC wagon, rivaling and maybe even surpassing it, because that's the aura Majiffy picked up about things.

[Majiffy]

I am going against everything ingrained in my soul right now.
VOTE: Majiffy
I am VT. I am a safe lynch. Flip me.

Then remember:

Doduo, Lying Cat, ZZZX, mastin2, Speedy Saki

All of these slots need to die.

[Majiffy]

Because I seriously have absolutely no urge whatsoever to continue this fucking game so flip me and then sheep the everfuckingshittington out of my reads.

[mastin2]

(On the one hand, I don't buy the AtE even remotely and it screams BS distraction meant to look good and throw us off.
On the other hand, I feel like a jerk for typing that up.

In either scenario, though, I think the offense has done as much productively as it possibly could, in that continuing this discussion will be anti-town his alignment regardless, so I'm backing down from that train of thought.)

[Majiffy]

You think I'm scum then vote me Mastin

[Majiffy]

I'm handing myself on a beautifully polished silver platter for you.

[Doublade]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mastin2

just a feeling now tbh.

[Guilty Gunsmith]

(On the one hand, I don't buy the AtE even remotely and it screams BS distraction meant to look good and throw us off.
On the other hand, I feel like a jerk for typing that up.

(My good sense is telling me Majiffy is scum, but my feelings disagree)

[Doduo]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mastin2

just a feeling now tbh.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mastin2

~~quack~~

[mastin2]

(Btw, it's times like this that I sometimes wish I had a neighborhood and/or a hydra partner, 'cause there is one thought I had that would be follow-through that I want to not forget and keep in mind but which I don't really want to clutter the thread with. If I had a QT, I could just dump the thought in there and bring it up at a later time if it proved still relevant, but since I don't, I've got the choice of saying it or not saying it and hoping I remember. This note serves as option C, half of both, which means half the ups of both and ~75% of the downs of both. )

[Majiffy]

I'm still not seeing a vote for your biggest scum read here Mastin.

[mastin2]

(On the one hand, I don't buy the AtE even remotely and it screams BS distraction meant to look good and throw us off.
On the other hand, I feel like a jerk for typing that up.

(My good sense is telling me Majiffy is scum, but my feelings disagree)

It's actually the opposite for me. Good sense says Majiffy could be town (thanks to a few things here and there), overwhelming feelings say he's scum.

In either case, still tabling it, still dropping it, still not pursuing it, let's focus elsewhere like back onto LC.

[Guilty Gunsmith]

(Btw, it's times like this that I sometimes wish I had a neighborhood and/or a hydra partner, 'cause there is one thought I had that would be follow-through that I want to not forget and keep in mind but which I don't really want to clutter the thread with. If I had a QT, I could just dump the thought in there and bring it up at a later time if it proved still relevant, but since I don't, I've got the choice of saying it or not saying it and hoping I remember. This note serves as option C, half of both, which means half the ups of both and ~75% of the downs of both. )

AP and mastin's Neighborhood QT

Mastin keep calm and carry on. We can worry about Majiffy later. Less petty squabbles that cause dramatics and more focusing on the objective of lynching scum. <3
~AP

[mastin2]

I'm still not seeing a vote for your biggest scum read here Mastin.

That's because you're not; you're third. (Admittedly, fluidity between the top-3 is decently-strong, but still.)

I'm not going to let myself be distracted from LC, since I think losing focus here is incredibly pro-scum.

[Majiffy]

I'm still not seeing a vote for your biggest scum read here Mastin.

That's because you're not; you're third. (Admittedly, fluidity between the top-3 is decently-strong, but still.)

Who is your third, already assuming me and LC? And why don't I know this? And why does it seem like you've spent all game arguing Majiffy-Scum and almost no time at all arguing LC-scum or ???-scum if I'm only your

third

strongest scumread?

A: Because you're fucking scum

[mastin2]

Who is your third, already assuming me and LC? And why don't I know this? And why does it seem like you've spent all game arguing Majiffy-Scum and almost no time at all arguing LC-scum or ???-scum if I'm only your third strongest scumread?

MTD. And I've argued MTD scum before; my iso had points which you dismissed. (I also emphasized this in the VCA.) The reason that I haven't argued LC scum is that honestly he's not my strongest scumread; that'd actually be MTD. (The player I have the least-waffly read on.) But I'm on the LC wagon because he is a strong scumread and sheeping AP.

[Majiffy]

Your MTD push was a weak meh vote placed to get your vote off me when it started to heat up into a 1v1. You haven't expounded on that in any sufficient way since.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Awful lot about MTD for not having pushed him.

mastin not so much, her posting didn't get any better, just more...
VOTE: mastin
I also don't like vezok's hop onto my wagon.

Any one of these three wouldn't be a problem. Any combo of two (or all three) creates problems. Vezok hopped onto MTD's wagon--fine to dislike, except Vezok's previous vote was on me, who MTD just voted rather than voting for Vezok. He votes the person Vezok is also scumreading strongly.

My posting doesn't get any better--not true, but fine. It also hasn't gotten worse, just more of it as MTD said. That'd be fine if MTD had a marked scumread of me, OR if MTD left the comment at just that. But MTD's previous thoughts on me were, "This isn't like either of Mastin's games I've played with her, but it's especially not like her scumgame", last I checked. Meaning that if my posting was weird-but-maybe-town and hadn't changed, MTD's position also wouldn't have changed.

The read begins.

Bipolarchemist - 1 (PeregrineV)
Guilty Gunsmith - 1 (Titus)
mastin2 - 4 (Perpetual Nonsense, MTD, Majiffy, Wickedestjr)
MTD - 4 (Speedy Saki, Guilty Gunsmith, vezokpiraka, mastin2)
Titus - 1 (pirate mollie)
Wickedestjr - 2 (Doduo, Lying Cat)
Not Voting: beastcharizard, Bipolarchemist, zabriel, ZZZX

Whoah. I'm actually a counterwagon! MTD had five votes (forget who the fifth was--I can only think of Wicked being the vote changer, though), and with my unvote, now has only three.

Thing about it is that I don't remember not liking Speedy Saki (quite the opposite), vezok's my strongest townread, and AP's probably town (but eh), compared to a wagon where the only townread is Perpetual Nonsense and I've voted two of 'em and have been vaguely scumreading the third. I mean, I don't want to get all egotistical on ya, but, well...kinda hard not to think two scum there.

I point out VCA for the first time, noting the dueling wagons.

Hm, I don't remember much, but obviously I am being wagoned...
I'll be rereading.

This doesn't really feel like a town response to realizing you're being wagoned.

I press him immediately upon my return.

This doesn't really feel like a town response to realizing you're being wagoned.

lol.

Loling is also not exactly a town response to an accusation.

And follow-through.

This doesn't really feel like a town response to realizing you're being wagoned.

lol.

Loling is also not exactly a town response to an accusation.

lol again.
Sorry but there is a type of accusation that is so forced that I just can't take it seriously.

Also kinda lacking the proper words to respond to this, but there's no forcedness. It IS a valid concern.

Pressure exists.
Responding to pressure is a key way to help read players.
The way you're responding to pressure doesn't look town.
When called out on it, you saying 'lol' was also not a town response, because basically, posting just a "lol" is something that, well. Kinda often comes from a scum player who simply doesn't have a response. There are town ways to respond to an idea you think is ridiculous as town. Typing 'lol' is not one of them. 'lol' has its place in a town player's vocabulary, as does the lol-emote, but not there during that time.

Know the type of response I'd have expected?
None at all.
Or if one is given?
"Meh."
"No."
"Whut?"
And the like.

Other similar not-necessarily-scum-but-definitely-not-town responses include, "You serious?" and "You joking?"

It's basically mindset/tone and all that. Town players shrug it off, knowing it's not really anything. Scum players are dismissive of it as being ridiculous.

Is this a rock-solid tell, heck no. Is it an indicator, I think so.

Twice.

vezokpiraka
pirate mollie
Speedy Saki (Saki + Metal Sonic)
Perpetual Nonsense (Bert and SXTLHGaiden)
ZZZX (roughly equal to Doduo, though)
Doduo (notscience + Marquis)
PeregrineV
Titus
Guilty Gunsmith (Snork + AngryPidgeon)
zabriel (might be higher, Majiffy's alignment depending)
beastcharizard
Lying Cat (Jingle + sthar8)
Wickedestjr (about on par with Majiffy in terms of waffling)
Majiffy
Bipolarchemist
MTD

Something like this. Positions VERY highly fluid, though.

Here he is at the bottom.

(FTR, that makes the lynch list be within {beast, Bipolar, Wicked, Majiffy, LC, MTD} for me, in that I see four of 'em being scum. Majiffy/LC/MTD are my guess for 3/4, but I'm not sure Wickedest would be the fourth. One of the more null two players could as a result be scum, but eh, cross that bridge when we come to it and all that.)

Where he remains.

So I took the time to skim all four's iso. Wicked has a TON of interactions with all three, and all three have a ton of interactions with one another, in particular Wicked. And I also found this:

Vote Count 1.2

Bipolarchemist - 1 (PeregrineV)
Guilty Gunsmith - 2 (Titus, mastin2)
Lying Cat - 2 (ZZZX, Guilty Gunsmith)
mastin2 - 1 (Perpetual Nonsense)
MTD - 1 (Wickedestjr)
Titus - 1 (pirate mollie)
Wickedestjr - 5 (vezokpiraka, Doduo, Lying Cat, Majiffy, MTD)
Not Voting: beastcharizard, Bipolarchemist, Speedy Saki, zabriel

I don't think it's coincidental that all three of LC, Majiffy, and MTD are here like that. More than that, while this should logically make me think Wicked is town, I also happen to not think so and that this is all three scumbuddies piling on, either just for the heck of it or because they figured Wicked was their weakest link.

And I bring up his iso and some more VCA.

While we're doing VCA......

Vote Count 1.4

Bipolarchemist - 1 (PeregrineV)
Guilty Gunsmith - 1 (Titus)
mastin2 - 2 (Perpetual Nonsense, MTD)
MTD - 5 (Wickedestjr, Speedy Saki, Guilty Gunsmith, vezokpiraka, mastin2)
Titus - 1 (pirate mollie)
Wickedestjr - 3 (Doduo, Lying Cat, Majiffy)
Not Voting: beastcharizard, Bipolarchemist, zabriel, ZZZX

Note the MTD wagon forming. Wicked was on it at the beginning, when MTD was in no danger. Yet now, he was.

Vote Count 1.5

Bipolarchemist - 1 (PeregrineV)
Guilty Gunsmith - 1 (Titus)
mastin2 - 4 (Perpetual Nonsense, MTD, Majiffy, Wickedestjr)
MTD - 4 (Speedy Saki, Guilty Gunsmith, vezokpiraka, mastin2)
Titus - 1 (pirate mollie)
Wickedestjr - 2 (Doduo, Lying Cat)
Not Voting: beastcharizard, Bipolarchemist, zabriel, ZZZX

And then a wagon forms on me, with Majiffy there and Wicked having switched off of MTD onto me.

The crash interrupted things, but when Lying Cat returned, we get this.

I'm a day neighborizer. I day neighborized all of you. The qt can be found at http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5911804
Also, we, the hydra, need to discuss reads, but I distinctly remember mastin and GG being our strongest reads. Mastina is scum, GG is town.

Also calling me scum.

Actually, it's the other way around, me concluding that Wicked's more likely scum for Majiffy, LC, and MTD all being on the wagon like that. And as I said, it's not just VCA. Do a triple-iso of the three, and an iso of Wicked. (Or a couple of dual-isos. Point is, read all four of 'em together.) Their interactions seem...well, awfully buddy-buddy, in a scum-attempting-to-not-look-buddy-buddy kind of way.

Mastin I think we should work to sorting out Majiffy, but not Today. Over night or Tomorrow. If he IS scum, hes still helping us lynch LC and I want to give him a chance.

Well, yeah. That goes without saying.

And follow-through here. (This also gives reasoning to be off your wagon.)

Oh, heck with it.
I know there's a wagon there already, but I feel like voting there anyway.
VOTE: MTD.

Thanks for confirming my scumread on you.
VOTE: Mastin

Unvote. Vote: mastin2

I mean...

You have to admit.

It is kinda uncanny that the minute I vote for MTD, both Majiffy and Wicked switch onto me to essentially single-handedly create an MTD counterwagon.

And I explain my suspicion of the timing again.

[mastin2]

Like, I've put more reasoning behind my MTD read than any other player has on MTD. Yeah, you've got more reasoning backing my scumread, but counterbalancing that is ALSO that I have reason to not hold strong belief in said scumread thanks to some maybe-town indicators, which I also explain.

[Majiffy]

531 looks like a whole lot of arm stretching just to justify an "I'm really not a fan of this post wherein I am voted"
595 is empty VCA "Look I'm a CW!"
625 is fency language and doesn't at all look like pressure.
639 was bullshit and I already explained why that reasoning was dead wrong.
648 is empty rhetoric made to look good.
768 isn't a reason it's just a placement of a completely unjustified read.
876 is sticking to an unjustified read.
883/884/889 more empty VCA on unflipped slots
890 more empty bullshit


You haven't formed a case for a scumread. You have adopted a scumread for weak reasons and then continued to wave the flag saying "lol look I have reads other than Majiffy!"