Ikaruga Mafia (Game Over!)

[mastin2]

these were all in the first four pages... what kind of "backing" is anyone expecting besides early game gut...?

(To be fair. I do have backing for most of those statements. I can show more or less the train of thought on anything I remember and I remember most of it, and even if not, know my mind well enough to guess and fill in the gaps to create the picture anyway.)

Mastin has a sample size of 1 completed game. Yet, that was enough to proclaim a read without anything behind it?

Said completed game didn't really factor in at all, btw. I didn't know you were peacebringer because I didn't care to know. I've seen you elsewhere. Just 'cause you don't see my name doesn't mean I'm not a player (I have a laundry list of undisclosed alts), and I read (well, skim) a ridiculously high number of games that I'm not in. (Which does factor into my treatment of you, in that it's kinda difficult to explain the perspective without revealing too much.)

wait... there ate 8/12 votes on Necro already?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!??!

Thus it being a scumdriven wagon. Full thoughts will have to wait, on some members of it to check in and for me to gather my thoughts on the rest, but basically, absolute utter complete total minimum of two members. I'm thinking four, not more. Which four, not precisely sure, other than that I'm sure it's not Doublade and personally don't think it's Xayzeck.
Between {Jordan, Talah, Nati, SKOT, Aegor, Fear}, you get decent-scumread, STRONG-scumread, needs-to-post-more-before-read-solidifies (but on scum side), needs-time-to-ponder, strongest-scum-if-not-for-knowing-I'm-biased, and needs-time-to-compile, respectively.

[mastin2]

mastin, you can move the vote back to jordan.

Sure, I guess.
VOTE: Jordan.
With the explicit knowledge that talah's still scum and even stronger.

[ZZZX]

mastin, you can move the vote back to jordan.

Sure, I guess.
VOTE: Jordan.
With the explicit knowledge that talah's still scum and even stronger.

With the explicit knowledge that talah's still scum and even stronger.

is actually quite town lol.

[PeregrineV]

HOLY SHIT
PEREGRINE ASKED ME TO LINK THOSE GAMES

and the 3 ones I linked are the recent ones. actually, if you want you can look at my wiki scum games.

spoiler: they're all the same.

Sorry, most Wikis aren;t up to date, so I didn't even look there first.

But I did, and not seeing what I really wanted, but I'll look over some.

[PeregrineV]

tell me, what's the point in meta diving this fucking early?

i don't know. why don't you ask peregrine and SKOT since they're the ones who wanted it?

Because Mastin scum-meta is easy to find.


Is this Mastin scum this game?

Answer hazy- ask again later.

Is Antihero scum this game?

Find an Antihero scumgame, read it, then ask again.

[PeregrineV]

Antihero gave his three most recent scumgames.
He picked them off of that criteria: MOST. RECENT.
They don't match your expectation of his posting. (Or his posting in here for that matter.)
You say, "bah, you have more games than that".

And you wonder why we scumread you, SKOT.

Know, I don't wonder. I pretty much expect it. Very common reaction because what you are basing scum reads on are complete absolute nonsense. I had no expectation of his posting. I don't play that way. I did not ask for "most recent." I looked simply at his general performance and saw plenty of scum wins. Posting style is something that is variable it is what is underneath and weather or not there appears to be evasion or seeking to eliminate vs searching and surviving. He set the criteria, I simply said it is worthless if one was going to tell and meta dive imo. As such, I am not a tell or meta dive player so my opinion is meaningless there.

p-edit- I see peri asked for the most recent. I skimmed that. Sorry, I skim a lot. See the Peacebringer title, imo.

My last game with you I found you town on initial read, but I remember it moved to an (incorrect) scumread. Went to check it, and found this! HA!

Ok, it seems you were pushing me for being scummy because IU replaced into a scummy katsuki slot, claimed confirm-able role, argued with you, etc.

Anyways, needed to clear that in my own mind.

[mastin2]

Mastin, I heavily disagree with your Xayzeck read and I'll champion my case if you want to talk in an hour or so. I could talk quickly now, but I may have to go.

Unfortunately, I'm actually spending too much time catching up in this game as it is. I'll get to the rest of stuffs later.

[Jordan_Downey]

In 643 Mastin accusing us of retaining a vote on him despite having no suspicion and that I did it because of a wagon ... The original vote was from other head. I have my own suspicions and obviously much like anti don't change our vote very much. I also have had suspicions myself as well, and the fact that all the sudden both of them have made a huge shift in how they are posting(both emotion driven posts now to fact driven posts after being called out) furthers my concern on that slot. I also can see the benefit of leaving my vote on a town slot because of the discussion generated by that wagon, I'm not very concerned with anyone getting lynched at this point, even if I thought TheNecro was town.

Also, I get the feeling that just because I voiced more suspicion on a different slot I should have changed vote or unvoted and the fact I didn't is because of a wagon, but Mastin outright just declaring someone as obvscum and then voting me is town? I don't see the logic there. In fact it looks rather hypocrital. Because it looks like mastin believes a wagon on me is more likely then on talah.

[PeregrineV]

Still on 19, but I'll have to come back.

[Antihero]

(both emotion driven posts now to fact driven posts after being called out) furthers my concern on that slot.

being less pissed off after having time to cool down is apparently a scumtell

you're rooting for things to find now and it's obvious

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Can you remind me what white nights refers to? (Is it indirectly protecting?)

no, it's directly protecting.

it's scummy because, as town, you should be skeptical of

everyone

coming into the game (since everyone has the same chances of drawing scum). picking out someone you think is "lynchbait" and chainsawing for them out of the gate is bad town play (which is why Slayer's Gambit doesn't work).

however, there's plenty of reason for scum to white knight; namely, because they already

know

their "lynchbait princess" that they're valiantly riding to rescue is town.

Oh good lord, it is this kind of expectation and logic that is horried and strongly Confbias as you like to point out. I deal with behavior. If I see behavior that I think is poor I will react to it. EIther as town or scum. It is in my nature to do so. If I WK as scum I am doing so with a specific intent regarding someone that may help me evade and eliminate. We all make choices as we sort through and folks defend people they think are town and attack those think are scum. You have to look at behaviors in context and interpret. Looking at certain behavior as scum and interpreting every occurrence will net you scum but will net you a lot of mislynch as well. Tons of confbias if you note.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Antihero gave his three most recent scumgames.
He picked them off of that criteria: MOST. RECENT.
They don't match your expectation of his posting. (Or his posting in here for that matter.)
You say, "bah, you have more games than that".

And you wonder why we scumread you, SKOT.

Know, I don't wonder. I pretty much expect it. Very common reaction because what you are basing scum reads on are complete absolute nonsense. I had no expectation of his posting. I don't play that way. I did not ask for "most recent." I looked simply at his general performance and saw plenty of scum wins. Posting style is something that is variable it is what is underneath and weather or not there appears to be evasion or seeking to eliminate vs searching and surviving. He set the criteria, I simply said it is worthless if one was going to tell and meta dive imo. As such, I am not a tell or meta dive player so my opinion is meaningless there.

p-edit- I see peri asked for the most recent. I skimmed that. Sorry, I skim a lot. See the Peacebringer title, imo.

My last game with you I found you town on initial read, but I remember it moved to an (incorrect) scumread. Went to check it, and found this! HA!

Ok, it seems you were pushing me for being scummy because IU replaced into a scummy katsuki slot, claimed confirm-able role, argued with you, etc.

Anyways, needed to clear that in my own mind.

yeah, sadly the kat slot in that game was one where I tried to look at meta and make a comparison and sucked horridly at it.

[Doublade]

i'm lost

UNVOTE:

[marquis]

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Said completed game didn't really factor in at all, btw. I didn't know you were peacebringer because I didn't care to know. I've seen you elsewhere. Just 'cause you don't see my name doesn't mean I'm not a player (I have a laundry list of undisclosed alts), and I read (well, skim) a ridiculously high number of games that I'm not in. (Which does factor into my treatment of you, in that it's kinda difficult to explain the perspective without revealing too much.)

well you have seen me elsewhere then what else do I go by elsewhere? Peacebringer is what I have used in some other locations. The main site I have played at for over a decade and where it deviated from is something else entirely. If you truly have read me elsewhere, then you know that my engagement here is pretty on part with elsewhere and add in responses to completely different styles. You should be smarter then that and also realize that I can get reactive and start poking when I think there is a bunch of non-sense going on.

[Jordan_Downey]

(both emotion driven posts now to fact driven posts after being called out) furthers my concern on that slot.

being less pissed off after having time to cool down is apparently a scumtell

you're rooting for things to find now and it's obvious

Lets look at it from my view. I think your posts are fake. The anger from you, the poke everybody from mastin seemed fake. You get called out on it. Your wagon hasn't gone away. So you change posting styles. That doesn't seem to be as much 'time to cool off' as changing your play style as your previous one wasn't working.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

High win percentage != competency. Eight scum games is not a large sample size. If his win percentage was near-100% with that number of scumgames and he joined the site within one or two years? Sure, yeah, it'd be significant. If his win percentage was that high with a significantly-larger sample size with his current number of games? Sure, yeah, it'd be significant. But he's been here for five years. That's an average of 1.5 scumgames per year. You're effectively using a sample size of one or two, in spite of saying it's larger, because scumgames/year is far more important the statistic to scumgames overall. Also, maybe different or maybe along the same lines, food for thought: if a veteran that had won ten scumgames in 2004 came back and lost a scumgame today, what would your thought on that be? The stats say they've got a high win percentage as scum. The numbers say competency as scum. Just a fluke? Or maybe, just maybe, they're not nearly as competent now as they once were.

this is a completely dumbfounding thing for someone who has claimed to "read me" elsewhere statement to make and is directed at others and not me as if you know me, you know I don't give a damn about that. I look, I see a lot of scum wins and only 2 losses, one as a serial killer, 1 as multi-ball. If you take those 2 out, that is a high # of wins with no losses as straight scum. The 2 I looked at that he posted was one win with lurking behavior and 1 with a gambit. We may debate left and right what is or is not "dangerous." Note I said he is dangerous, not highly competent, the best scum ever. I said he is good scum and evidence points to said fact. Now you add in some expanded time shift over and above reasonable to try and make a point. Also you keep referencing confirm bias, that is you and your pal. It is like this catch phrase you treat those who disagree with you as. If have truly been exposed to me outside of MS, then you know I constantly am looking at things from many angles. I can get many bad theories and certainly can get confbias from time to time. We all can. There is nothing in what you have discussed that is inherently evasive or seeking to eliminate.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

So basically......You expected us to scumread you for posting non-sense.Nonsense that would be true our alignment regardless.Nonsense we would therefore call you out on our alignment regardless.What do you gain from it, then?

Oh good lord, you scum read me on "nonsense" and things of your own vain imaginations. Here, I expect to get a reaction because I don't play by the gotta make sure everyone likes me and got to match up with a set of expectations on what people do. I am myself. You get the good, the bad, and the ugly. This is true when I am scum and town. FYI- I have a tendency to be more concerned about what others might think when I am scum. This is known by those that have played with me for over a decade. It is a fact and it is a by product as well as how I play. I cannot do differently, I am who I am and my brief foray into trying and alt before an alt slip even made me aware more of this.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

In post 478, Sharpest-knife-on-tree wrote:Forgive me if I do not have a lot of faith in your perspective. I have not seen you do well and seen you suckered in past by someone that appeared 1000% scum and was. Again, that was past this is now. I am wading my way around here.First half does not mesh with the second half, especially given: In post 413, Sharpest-knife-on-tree wrote:I am not using meta other than meta came up as the source of your reaction, in particular to being called good at being scum. (Different context, but shows how he treats meta all the same.) In post 401, Sharpest-knife-on-tree wrote:I am not a "tell hunter" nor a "meta hunter" but I did want to see what you did- YET MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, In post 384, Sharpest-knife-on-tree wrote:eh, I have tried pulling things from reading past games and I do not do a good job of reading those differences. I am more of what is going on in the moment and other stuff which is the tools used where I have played many many games. I cannot shake what do and I cannot do what others. So pointing me to completed games is all nice and shiny. And that being said, it really has nothing to do with games with you as a hydra with mastin which is a completely added dynamic and brand spanking new. Bolded: his stated preference of living in the now, not the past. Yet when TD is playing in the present and raising points that may hold validity, does SKOT pause to consider them?No. He goes into the past, pointing to completed games which is all "nice and shiny" as he puts it. When he himself has admitted that it was a completely different dynamic. Antihero said it well: dismissing via a reverse 7-for-7 ("you were wrong before, you're wrong again"), when there were legitimate points that by SKOT's own philosophy should have been listened to.(I will be going over SKOT's posting in this range in more detail later, though, to give you a better idea of how it makes me feel about SKOT. If I had him as my strongest scumread, you'd see me voting him, but I'm not.)

I like all am inconsistent. I look at patterns and reactions. When I say not a "tell hunter" or "Meta hunter" it does not mean I never use such tools. It means it is not my strength and I don't spend a lot of time trying to use those tools. I am not detail oriented to pick up on slight minor details that break one open as scum. I will not pick up on a subtle change in language or such that gives me an ah-ha that is scum. I need data, the more data I get the more I have to react to. Often times I have my gut response. Sometimes I get a lot out of poking and getting reactions like I have from you 2. You have taken my taking each game as it comes mind set but ignoring my talk about we all have experiences. I did not say totally ignore the past. And note, in all my poking and prodding and the vote I have not once called you scum. I have stated that I was drawing reactions and this is preciously what I did. I have in fact seen enough and felt I engaged in enough prodding after getting irritated with the idiotic scum read, which is even now more idiotic given your proclamation of being familiar with me from elsewhere. Please feel free to identify names I go by elsewhere when I don't go by peacebringer. TIA.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Let's do it the other way.

7. Zdenek
2. Doublade (Marquis/Caledfwitch)
1. Shiny Hydreigon (Wisdom/Notscience/Ms Marangal)
5. PeregrineV
3. Saki
4. ZZZX
6. Spring Starflower (Metal Sonic/Sakura Hana)
14. MafiaSSK
22. RachMarie
8. TiphaineDeath
12. Nachomamma8
13. TSO
10. Dry-fit
19. Fear (Yessiree/Emogirl123)
17. Xayzeck
11. The Most Curious Thing
15. Natirasha
21. Aegor
16. Talah
20. Jordan_Downey (Jingle/Aphix)
9. Sharpest-knife-on-tree

Positions again highly fluid, but I think this gives a general feeling of where I am.

this is where you moved me to #1 scum mastin, and now you want to say that I was not #1 scum... for shame... it was your nonsense here and statements like "your content is not 'rich' and other malarkey that sent me to bulldogging you for reactions...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

(both emotion driven posts now to fact driven posts after being called out) furthers my concern on that slot.

being less pissed off after having time to cool down is apparently a scumtell

you're rooting for things to find now and it's obvious

Lets look at it from my view. I think your posts are fake. The anger from you, the poke everybody from mastin seemed fake. You get called out on it. Your wagon hasn't gone away. So you change posting styles. That doesn't seem to be as much 'time to cool off' as changing your play style as your previous one wasn't working.

this is an interesting statement and would be interested into what the basis of the premise that the emotion is fake... I am pretty sure it wasn't, as I have a good gauge usually of emotion pointed my way...

[Jordan_Downey]

It's just a feeling I have from reading the posts. That have gotten stronger the more they are posting.

[Natirasha]

i'm lost

UNVOTE:

[marquis]

Marquis! Mutiny and let's do our Fulbright hydra!

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

It's just a feeling I have from reading the posts. That have gotten stronger the more they are posting.

if you are intuitive, and go by feelings, you know that you have work to do to sort out the accuracy of what you are feeling. There are multiple variables that result in impairing the accuracy of the intuition.

[Jordan_Downey]

Somewhat caught up. Mastin wagon is shit. That probably means mastin is town.

UNVOTE:

I need to

bludgeon my hydra partner for being dumb

discuss reads. Will return later.

[talah]

Ah good, Nacho's here!

Uh..... d'awwww :(


@mastin - I have no desire to "work with" scum-you. Scum-you has this weirdly false sense of entitlement to be humoured throughout the obvious bullshit you're spouting.

I don't even know what your problem with me is about. You seem to be shoving a burden of proficiency argument at me, and then saying that by virtue of me thinking I might be able to read you and scumreading you, means I *must* be scum because "HURRDURR I IZ TOWNZ". That's scum-thinking. That's "How would I act if I was town" - it's not how people *actually* act when they're town.

Do I need to remind you that my initial scum lean was all about *Anti* and not you? How does scumleaning your slot make me scum?

And it seems reeeeallly fucking strange to me that despite this being pretty apparent, Anti hasn't addressed me once.
That just makes me think you've told him "you'll handle it", where the town response would be to ask me why I thought he was trying too hard in his early posting.

Very comfortable with voting Necro, would be happy to see the lynch. Too many times I've identified scum in players i respect, failed to push it because I wanted to give them a chance, and died before they did.