Ikaruga Mafia (Game Over!)

[T S O]

I am so confused right now. I am talking about thenecro where?

I think.my PC bugged lol wtf

lol wtf I don't actually.

[RachMarie]

I am not seeing the necro case peeps, yes it is annoying that they still cant post on their hydra account and are having to post on their mains which of course causes a lot more confusion and mismatch since they have very different styles of play. But Mastin's posts definitely feel like town Mastin to me. Anti is more slippery to read, true, but he is in the same slot as Mastin so if Mastin is town so is he.

[mastin2]

If I see behavior that I think is poor I will react to it. EIther as town or scum.

Guess what: so do we.
We saw behavior we thought was poor from you, and...we reacted to it.

Tell me, given that we'd react to it as town or scum, you gained...

what

, exactly, from doing it?

All the sudden both of them have made a huge shift in how they are posting (both emotion driven posts now to fact driven posts after being called out) furthers my concern on that slot.

Trust me. Anti was ticked off, and is cooled down a bit now. My posting really didn't change much, but I suppose it mighta a little bit 'cause while not angry, I was...agitated. Still am for some players.

I voiced more suspicion on a different slot I should have changed vote or unvoted and the fact I didn't is because of a wagon, but Mastin outright just declaring someone as obvscum and then voting me is town?

Context and circumstances.
You? Keep your vote. The same vote you've had all game. On the lead wagon. In spite of not suspecting us that much. And suspecting other players more.
We? Have moved our vote around a lot, explained our reads, and moved it onto you in part on request and in part because we agreed on it.

well you have seen me elsewhere then what else do I go by elsewhere?

Elsewhere

on the site

. As in, here. On mafiascum. Seeing (and maybe playing in) some of your other games. (And if as a player...with ME as the player using a different name.)

For instance, looking at your peacebringer account avatar, I'm positive we've played more than just one game, but if you can only think of the one, fairly certain that means we played another with me as an alt (or hydra, but probably alt). Now apply that just to you being SKOT instead of peacebringer.

[mangled quote cut]

I like all am inconsistent. I look at patterns and reactions. When I say not a "tell hunter" or "Meta hunter" it does not mean I never use such tools. It means it is not my strength and I don't spend a lot of time trying to use those tools. I am not detail oriented to pick up on slight minor details that break one open as scum. I will not pick up on a subtle change in language or such that gives me an ah-ha that is scum. I need data, the more data I get the more I have to react to. Often times I have my gut response. Sometimes I get a lot out of poking and getting reactions like I have from you 2. You have taken my taking each game as it comes mind set but ignoring my talk about we all have experiences. I did not say totally ignore the past.

This is a dodge of my point. You ignored TD altogether. You didn't consider his points. You didn't analyze them and reject them as having been invalid. You didn't think about whether they were true or not. You didn't think about the points in the present. Instead, you brushed it aside in favor of the past.

There's a difference between not entirely living in the present (what you're claiming) and

entirely ignoring it

. (What I saw you doing.)

And note, in all my poking and prodding and the vote I have not once called you scum.

And note that I haven't disclosed my full read on you, either.

7. Zdenek
2. Doublade (Marquis/Caledfwitch)
1. Shiny Hydreigon (Wisdom/Notscience/Ms Marangal)
5. PeregrineV
3. Saki
4. ZZZX
6. Spring Starflower (Metal Sonic/Sakura Hana)
14. MafiaSSK
22. RachMarie
8. TiphaineDeath
12. Nachomamma8
13. TSO
10. Dry-fit
19. Fear (Yessiree/Emogirl123)
17. Xayzeck
11. The Most Curious Thing
15. Natirasha
21. Aegor
16. Talah
20. Jordan_Downey (Jingle/Aphix)
9. Sharpest-knife-on-tree

Positions again highly fluid

, but I think this gives a general feeling of where I am.

this is where you moved me to #1 scum mastin, and now you want to say that I was not #1 scum...

*cough*
Look up what fluid means. The read was strongest scum, now it's not. It changes.

[mastin2]

@mastin - I have no desire to "work with" scum-you.

Screw it.
I can't.
VOTE: talah.
I'm sorry, Anti, and anyone else who wants to work with me.

I cannot vote for anyone else.
Literally cannot.

Because this?
This is a scumclaim from talah. This is talah, last game, scumreading me.

It's probably a bad idea to lynch mastin Day 1 on the off chance that she's town. So will be keeping an eye on.
UNVOTE: mastin

The scumread is laid out with a vote, fleshed out in follow-through, and in the post I'm quoting, summarizes...but shows why he's not going to pursue lynching me.

(And again, for emphasis: My town and scum entrances are vastly different, but this was my town entrance. A big ping is the difference in reads, because if he were town I'd expect to understand him almost immediately as I have.

He's not tried to connect with me; he's not tried to

get

a read on me

, he just said I was scum and then next post voted me. More than that, I've explained my thinking, yet he's brushed it aside. I made the statements...

and then I backed them up

. I've shown to the best of my ability EXACTLY where I am coming from on this, which is exactly the thing that talah said I can do as town but haven't been doing as scum. To put it bluntly, it's not an entrance I'd expect of talah's personality.)

That not enough? Then have this one. (Emphasized parts have been emphasized to show the critical heart of talah's thoughts towards me as a player.)

So I feel like at least we have an amiable connection to the point where

if mastin's town,

I'd like to work with her

, and I'd think that she'd be far more cautious and wanting to determine my alignment rather than just dropping a vote on me and then telling me I know virtually nothing about her.

So anyway, that's it. I feel like I'm getting overinvested in this line of thinking and it's clouding my judgement so

I'm just going to note my scumread on mastin

and keep sorting through other reads.

THIS. IS. TALAH. AS. TOWN. SCUMREADING. ME. YET. BEING. WILLING. TO. WORK. WITH. ME. On the off chance I am town.

Compare to this game. Where talah flat-out refuses to engage me.
REFUSES.

This is scum talah. I was really, really hoping it wasn't. But it is.
Talah as town flat-out said he thinks of me as something of a mentor.
Talah as town flat-out said that he was willing to not only not lynch me, but to work with me on the chance I was town because he values my input that much.
This talah flat-out said he was refusing.

[mastin2]

You seem to be shoving a burden of proficiency argument at me.

DAMN STRAIGHT.
One that

YOU

created.

The thing is you're a fuckload better at explaining yourself than you give yourself credit for. You laid down reads with little reasoning (which you seem to have run with unless it's been a hallmark) but they were inherently explicable. You were open and offered to explain. So I asked about Kalimar, put myself on the line and said what I thought first, and you agreed and added your own take on it. After you got dayvigged I had that as a tenet of you-town. The ability to explain when pressed.

I laid my reads down with little reasoning, but

have been open and offered to explain

.
Where has your questioning of the reads been?
Where has you asking what I was seeing been?
It hasn't been there at all.

You're not looking for the things you look for in reading my alignment. You're not pressing me.
You're just marking me off as being scum.
And leaving it at just that.

That goes against literally everything.

EVERYTHING

. That I know of a town-talah. (Not to mention violating just about every article I've written for town which you have familiarity with if nothing else.)
You're not only getting the read wrong, but not going about forming (or updating) the read in a town manner.

Do I need to remind you that my initial scum lean was all about *Anti* and not you? How does scumleaning your slot make me scum?

Really now?

And had a 'one raised eyebrow' read on mastin primarily for not understanding/agreeing with the early reads, then Anti clarified that they're a hydra. So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

This was just Anti? No, it was both of us. More than that, as the same slot, if you scumread the Antihero half, it requires you to have a scumread on my half. And if you have a scumread on my half? Town-you goes about trying to make sure of it, and if sure of it, will note it but not push it.

But you?

Let me quote the important bit from that post for emphasis.

So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

DEFAULTING TO SCUMREAD. Until there's reason not to. That is not how a town-talah thinks. A town-talah, like a town-Mastin, holds hope for the inner townness in players, and is vastly disappointed when presented with strong evidence to the contrary...yet will still work with that chance, anyway, just in case. Instead of having me as town until presented with strong evidence of me being scum...you default to scum and are only going to change it with reason to. I'm not sure this is coming across clearly, but I'm right, and you dang-well know it.

And it seems reeeeallly fucking strange to me that despite this being pretty apparent, Anti hasn't addressed me once.

Actually, he did. You weren't the only person to say trying-too-hard. He ranted about it a fair deal in our QT. (Him getting accused of trying too hard is, shall we say, not a new accusation.)


Oh. And all of these don't go into Touhou, which I just remembered you were in and were town that I was vastly impressed with, too.

[mastin2]

7. Zdenek
8. TiphaineDeath
2. Doublade (Marquis/Caledfwitch)
1. Shiny Hydreigon (Wisdom/Notscience/Ms Marangal)

5. PeregrineV
3. Saki
4. ZZZX
6. Spring Starflower (Metal Sonic/Sakura Hana)
14. MafiaSSK
22. RachMarie
13. TSO

12. Nachomamma8
10. Dry-fit

17. Xayzeck
11. The Most Curious Thing
9. Sharpest-knife-on-tree
19. Fear (Yessiree/Emogirl123)
15. Natirasha
20. Jordan_Downey (Jingle/Aphix)
21. Aegor
16. Talah

Spaces quite intentional this time. SKOT/Fear/Nati positions may not be accurate, and heck, even the Jordan one isn't assured.
talah's scum. Aegor's probably scum. Whoever else is scum, those are the important ones.

[talah]

(And again, for emphasis: My town and scum entrances are vastly different, but this was my town entrance. A big ping is the difference in reads, because if he were town I'd expect to understand him almost immediately as I have.

He's not tried to connect with me; he's not tried to

get

a read on me

, he just said I was scum and then next post voted me. More than that, I've explained my thinking, yet he's brushed it aside. I made the statements...

and then I backed them up

. I've shown to the best of my ability EXACTLY where I am coming from on this, which is exactly the thing that talah said I can do as town but haven't been doing as scum. To put it bluntly, it's not an entrance I'd expect of talah's personality.)

Why are you representing something that I said in NY 172 as your own words?

A big ping was immediately differing reads. I don't think you put down more than two or three insta-reads which you actually have any meat behind. In the last game we played together where we hydra'd, I understood your reads *immediately*. I expected you to enter the thread with either slight disdain for my aggression or a hearty 'hullo' and you've done neither. You've not tried to connect with me; not tried to *get* a read on me - you've simply said I'm scum and voted me.

You're still not trying to engage with me or get a read on me. You're just trying to sell me as scum to town. And your argument is 'talah should be townreading me or giving me a free pass Day 1'.

No. I just explained in my last post why you're not afforded a day's grace in this game. I don't believe you're town here. You're not interested in the reasons.

[talah]

Oh I just love the constant misrepresentations too.

"A town-talah thinks like x,y,z."

Pretty fucking rich considering you readily admitted you'd pretty much forgotten who I was until I called you scum in 172.

Anyway I'm just going to underline in bright red pen Necro=Scum and go find the others. At this stage I'm thinking Rach, possibly SSK, ZZZX, and *maybeee* Starflower depending on Sakura's input. Nati and Pere I have zero clue. Saki's absent which I think is actually slightly townleaning. Anyway.

[Antihero]

Lets look at it from my view. I think your posts are fake. The anger from you, the poke everybody from mastin seemed fake. You get called out on it. Your wagon hasn't gone away. So you change posting styles. That doesn't seem to be as much 'time to cool off' as changing your play style as your previous one wasn't working.

*looks*

looks like it's going away to me. Jingle saw it.

also, i'm just gonna' leave this here

[Antihero]

Oh I just love the constant misrepresentations too.

"A town-talah thinks like x,y,z."

Pretty fucking rich considering you readily admitted you'd pretty much forgotten who I was until I called you scum in 172.

Anyway I'm just going to underline in bright red pen Necro=Scum and go find the others. At this stage I'm thinking Rach, possibly SSK, ZZZX, and *maybeee* Starflower depending on Sakura's input. Nati and Pere I have zero clue. Saki's absent which I think is actually slightly townleaning. Anyway.

posturing aside, the other reads are hilariously bad

[mastin2]

Why are you representing something that I said in NY 172 as your own words?

I'm not.

The fact that it's your words is

my whole point

.

You're still not trying to engage with me or get a read on me.

EXCEPT I BLATANTLY DID. I even made a reach-out. Asked why you weren't working with me.

YOU said you weren't going to.

You flat-out said you weren't going to work with me, try to hash things out.
WHEN THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS FOR US TO GET READS ON EACH OTHER. You said it yourself, that's how you got a townread on me in Gundam--by working with me, by seeing my reads, and listening to their explanation, you were able to get a townread on me there.

You've done nothing like that this game.

You're just trying to sell me as scum to town.

And this! This goes against how you see me as scum, too. As scum, selling a town player as scum to the town is something I rarely if ever do. Not self-meta;

those are your words

. (Well, paraphrased, I suppose.) That as scum, I am opaque and don't let people in, and as town am a much better narrator than I claim when I'm scum. This game?

I'm narrating

, giving my orating.

And your argument is 'talah should be townreading me or giving me a free pass Day 1'.

Not exactly, but more or less?

YES!

I'm town this game. You fancy yourself able to read me. So you

should

be townreading me. That you aren't sets off

big freakin' red flags

.

But let's say.
Let's say you aren't as good at reading me as I've thought you to be.

Past experience has shown you to be willing to give the benefit of the doubt

. This game, you've given none.

[mastin2]

Pretty fucking rich considering you readily admitted you'd pretty much forgotten who I was until I called you scum in 172.

Yes.

And I made sure not to forget you since then.

I play with so many players that I do occasionally forget.
But when a player leaves an impression on me I can't forget (which is normally my scumgames since my scumgames are more memorable in general than my towngames), I make sure to never let that player leave my mind.

And you haven't. I cited a fair amount of these things from memory. And then, when people didn't take my word on it, I tracked down the sources

and showed the conversations proving it

. You're not even saying I'm wrong about how you think, because I'm right about it and you dang-well

know

I am. Instead, you make this deflection from the whole point.

Who's the one saying "you know

nothing

about me" this game, talah? Because that's what you're claiming, right here.

Anyway I'm just going to underline in bright red pen Necro=Scum and go find the others. At this stage I'm thinking Rach, possibly SSK, ZZZX, and *maybeee* Starflower depending on Sakura's input. Nati and Pere I have zero clue. Saki's absent which I think is actually slightly townleaning. Anyway.

Quite coincidental that you say this, because I was just going to get to that.

You've shared no thoughts on others.
No thoughts on other players you've had suspicion on.
No thoughts on reasons why.
No explanations.
No reasoning.

Just blank empty reads, shown like this.

Where's the walls of text or the spamposting explaining it?
Where's the detailed descriptions where you show exactly where you are coming from and what you are seeing?
Where's the attempt to get players to understand your reads?
Where's the attempt to

gather

reads, for that matter?

Every aspect of your towngame is absent.

[mastin2]

At this stage I'm thinking Rach, possibly SSK, ZZZX, and *maybeee* Starflower depending on Sakura's input. Nati and Pere I have zero clue. Saki's absent which I think is actually slightly townleaning. Anyway.

posturing aside, the other reads are hilariously bad

This, too.

The best read there is Nati and even that one is not sure-fire.

[RachMarie]

Talah why do you have the scum reads you do?

[talah]

That was pretty much the angle "ZOMG NO SCUMHUNTING" that you(scum), AP(scum), and Rogers(town) pushed on me in 172 as well. It worked fairly effectively getting me to implode there, so I can see why you'd try it again.

Regarding not giving you a free pass in *this game*, I recently finished an alt-game with Nacho where I had him in my scumleans and gave him a free pass and he went on into lylo. In 172 you were lynched almost by default for not posting, but I gave you a free pass there. No more free passes unless I have a reasonable amount of doubt. I want to get Nacho's take on this as a reasonable change in ethos from me, since you just seem to be spamfucking.

Having a single focus is inherently distracting, and you won't be tying me up with meta bullshit, and I won't be imploding.

So have fun with that. I have other things to do. It's Day 1 of a large theme.
Of course I'm going to dismiss a thousand walls of bullshit aimed at me. What else can I do? Quit my job and go full-time mastin-scum humourer?


Oh and you should probably explain what me-scum has to gain by calling you-town, scum.

[talah]

Talah why do you have the scum reads you do?

I have to go to work Rach. Those are the folks I feel most leery of right now.

[Zdenek]

I don't think that I will have the chance to post until Friday.

[T S O]

I don't support the Necromancers wagon, and I'm not going to vote it. Everyone should ISO Xayzeck, read his early-game, smack your vote on him and pat yourself on the back.

[mastin2]

That was pretty much the angle "ZOMG NO SCUMHUNTING" that you(scum), AP(scum), and Rogers(town) pushed on me in 172 as well.

Only on the surface level, and with vastly different circumstances. In that game? That game, I

said

you weren't scumhunting...but you

were

. In that game, I claimed you weren't being genuine, but your posts were ridiculously genuine. (Here, there's no emotion behind them. There, there was plenty.) I claimed you were being reactionary, when you were being proactive. Here, though. Here, you really. Really. HAVEN'T BEEN.
Like I can pull up examples of the accusations I made, and contemporary posts of yours that show it to be false and actually the opposite.

Not so here.

Because there? There, I was scum faking my town self in a decently-convincing manner hitting all the right literal points but failing in every general sense in that I was on the ropes. Here? It's the real thing. And now, you're the one trying (and doing a decent job) to hit all the literal points but failing literally every single general check you possibly could.

Regarding not giving you a free pass in *this game*, I recently finished an alt-game with Nacho where I had him in my scumleans and gave him a free pass and he went on into lylo.

Also not my point. (Well, part of my point, but y'know what I mean.) There's a difference between giving a free pass and

refusing to consider the alternative

. You can still press the idea of me being scum...but to do so and ignore everything I bring up? Ignore my content, ignore my posting, blindly assume I am scum until the end of days?

No.

That's not a town-talah. Never. Never ever.

Oh and you should probably explain what me-scum has to gain by calling you-town, scum.

A lynch on quite frankly two of the most competent town players in the game? Anti's ridiculously good at scumhunting when town. I'm not quite as good, but I've been progressively feeling more and more in my stride. My towngame is getting more accurate with each and every town game I'm playing in. In particular, if my suspicions this game are remotely correct, then having me dead early-on prevents me from refining them and from convincing players.

Ironically enough, you yourself gave the perfect reason scum would want to get rid of me early-on. Just you described the dayvig, rather than doing so via lynch. (Even though the result--the person pushing for my death--should be the same, in that it makes them obvscum, well, it took days before Titus was lynched in Gundam.)

Actually if you'd survived a day or two I think it would have been really easy for you to have obvtowned with that posting style+openness - obviously scum thought you'd already got there.

I'm sure as heck open as can be, and bluntly obvtown. Lynching me? Would be a scum field day.

[mastin2]

(For the record, this is basically a 97.5% scumread. It's one of the few. The rarest of the rare. Where a player I hold fundamental trust in shows themselves to be scum. To the point where even if I lost, I'd almost be willing to enter into a 1v1, if not for that slither of a doubt, that tiny morsel of hope that I am wrong and that they are town that I somehow have seriously misread. There's only one or two other possible players for me to have this feeling for, Nacho and SSK, thanks to our histories.

That

strong.)

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Guess what: so do we.We saw behavior we thought was poor from you, and...we reacted to it.Tell me, given that we'd react to it as town or scum, you gained...what, exactly, from doing it?

the "post" you reacted to was simply probing saki... instead you jump at it and go off and running and then annoy me to the Nth degree calling me # one scum. You seem to be arguing that if what I play draws attention to me then why do it. It is what I have always done. I cannot do any differently. It just is how it is. I don't even think about it and reactions happen. I can try and play nice but I will do things that bring reaction. It just is what it is.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

e on the site. As in, here. On mafiascum. Seeing (and maybe playing in) some of your other games. (And if as a player...with ME as the player using a different name.)For instance, looking at your peacebringer account avatar, I'm positive we've played more than just one game, but if you can only think of the one, fairly certain that means we played another with me as an alt (or hydra, but probably alt). Now apply that just to you being SKOT instead of peacebringer.

you simply said elsewhere, elsewhere meaning not here. My engagement in the recent iterations here are limited and not many. I only recall one game here with a known hydra. There may have an alt or another that is not memorable. So you then are limited to the mafiascum motif and culture and still looking at it from that bias. You called my comments less rich but in the PB games from the past year I got overwhelmed by the current culture and would have a hard time considering there having much "depth" or "richness" to my plays and included my stubbornness over not wanting to explain my thinking because the dynamic here really did not make sense. So I shift to an alt and then alt shifted. Yet, my basic nature still came out.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

s is a dodge of my point. You ignored TD altogether. You didn't consider his points. You didn't analyze them and reject them as having been invalid. You didn't think about whether they were true or not. You didn't think about the points in the present. Instead, you brushed it aside in favor of the past.There's a difference between not entirely living in the present (what you're claiming) and entirely ignoring it. (What I saw you doing.)

I did not ignore TD. Before you exploded with your morass I had made a comment to TD about the reaction and even through a vote. I had not immediately recalled the history with TD until I went back and read. Then we had a little bit of an exchange and understanding. And please note, I have not said I live "entirely in the present" that is a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of my point. I take each game as it comes. Each game is going to involve me and my experiences. You cannot separate them. You have your experience. Also, just because I say nothing, does not mean I ignore something. However, with TD I did not ignore, nor did I take as serious. I took it more serious when I went back and looked at a past game for other reasons that they were in as well. Now, if you have insight into my head then perhaps you can say what I did or did not do. I did not voice much but did more as the game went along. This is just a valid as your having "reasons" that you do not share for what appears to be baseless reads. Instead, you jump to conclusions and as you and your partner like to point out, demonstrate significant confbias in regards to the engagement. And in our exchange, even now you have yet to acknowledge what this exchange was all about and continue to extend the conversation. So this exchange continues to the point where we may soon by simply ignored by most others.

[TiphaineDeath]

Yeaaah, I am not seeing talah scum, sorry Mastin :/.

[Spring Starflower]

Mastin!

We can only lynch one scum each day!