Tales of You (Dead zone)

[mastin2]

^How every town player feels this game.

(Admittedly, it's just a guess as to the appropriateness given I'm guessing at some of the lyrics thanks to how new the song is, but I think it applies.)

[Ms Marangal]

Still cant view the video

[mastin2]

I didn't trust your reads, Mastin. Even after you died.

The problem with that being that they were...basically spot-on for most things.

Which only a small fraction of the playerlist can say. Did I make mistakes, yes, in particular one big one (see below), but I was far from untrustworthy.

You've been unsure about me before, but you spent most of day 2 flat-out scumreading me and even after I knew you were town, I didn't trust your other reads when you read me so wrong.

With good reason. You weren't playing like the ffery that I knew. (Tell me I'm wrong and that

in games I've played

, you showed the same traits you did this game.)

And it took me realizing what you

were

playing as (emotionally) for me to read you as town...but once I did? I didn't let go of that. At all. I stuck to my firm townread of you, and made it clear I was doing so and that I wasn't backing down from that. You started as a townread. You ended as a townread. You were a scumread for one reason, and one reason ONLY, and once I realized said reason made you only stronger town*...I reversed said scumread.

*Again, seeing emotions like that threw me off. I was not expecting the (for lack of a better word) hostility from you. Even before it was hostile, it was frustration, on a level that I haven't seen. I picked up on aspects of your play that were not matching what I know of your townplay, because I've not seen that level of frustration from you aside from maybe Maniacal Street. (Which, being a game that I modded, is not my first point of reference when it comes to players. I basically flat-out don't use meta from that game pretty much aside from players like Cephrir who I don't have enough outside-meta for.) Thus, mistook it for scum when it was just person-based and not alignment-based.

And that became apparent to me only after my latest attempt at reflecting and when I realized I was the same way: angry and frustrated, yet quite clearly and solidly town. Thus my read on you became...angry and frustrated yet quite clearly and solidly town. (Which was reinforced by me remembering the traits in Maniacal Street. The moment the thought/memory entered my mind [forget which happened first], the other followed immediately.)

And if you look at the length of time I was scumreading you?
That was a fraction of my time townreading you.
Townread on D1.
Townread for the last few days of D2.
Townread at the beginning of D2, too.

It was only that middle week or week and a half or so in which I scumread you. (Haven't fact-checked this, but I do believe it's true.) Which is basically (given game size) LESS than the length I've normally scumread you.

[mastin2]

Still cant view the video

What the--
I listened to it literally five minutes before posting.
Less, actually.
More like two.

[mastin2]

(For posterity, when it stops being taken down for copyright infringement BS, it was "I don't want to be here anymore" by Rise Against.
As soon as a not-taken-down video appears, listen to it.)

[fferyllt]

I didn't trust your reads, Mastin. Even after you died.

The problem with that being that they were...basically spot-on for most things.

Which only a small fraction of the playerlist can say. Did I make mistakes, yes, in particular one big one (see below), but I was far from untrustworthy.

You've been unsure about me before, but you spent most of day 2 flat-out scumreading me and even after I knew you were town, I didn't trust your other reads when you read me so wrong.

With good reason. You weren't playing like the ffery that I knew. (Tell me I'm wrong and that

in games I've played

, you showed the same traits you did this game.)

And it took me realizing what you

were

playing as (emotionally) for me to read you as town...but once I did? I didn't let go of that. At all. I stuck to my firm townread of you, and made it clear I was doing so and that I wasn't backing down from that. You started as a townread. You ended as a townread. You were a scumread for one reason, and one reason ONLY, and once I realized said reason made you only stronger town*...I reversed said scumread.

*Again, seeing emotions like that threw me off. I was not expecting the (for lack of a better word) hostility from you. Even before it was hostile, it was frustration, on a level that I haven't seen. I picked up on aspects of your play that were not matching what I know of your townplay, because I've not seen that level of frustration from you aside from maybe Maniacal Street. (Which, being a game that I modded, is not my first point of reference when it comes to players. I basically flat-out don't use meta from that game pretty much aside from players like Cephrir who I don't have enough outside-meta for.) Thus, mistook it for scum when it was just person-based and not alignment-based.

And that became apparent to me only after my latest attempt at reflecting and when I realized I was the same way: angry and frustrated, yet quite clearly and solidly town. Thus my read on you became...angry and frustrated yet quite clearly and solidly town. (Which was reinforced by me remembering the traits in Maniacal Street. The moment the thought/memory entered my mind [forget which happened first], the other followed immediately.)

And if you look at the length of time I was scumreading you?
That was a fraction of my time townreading you.
Townread on D1.
Townread for the last few days of D2.
Townread at the beginning of D2, too.

It was only that middle week or week and a half or so in which I scumread you. (Haven't fact-checked this, but I do believe it's true.) Which is basically (given game size) LESS than the length I've normally scumread you.

Your scum read started pretty early on day 2 iirc.

It doesn't matter. The main thing was, the only time I've ever seen you misuse my meta that way (which this time was unintentional) was in the L4D game.

I think what you saw as reaching out, I saw as sledging - trying to beat me down and sap my will to fight (which was already low because of how confused my reads were, which all centered on AP and RBD and getting hammered from so many sides for townreading RBD day one and poshumously on day 2) and trying to convince others you were right that I was scum, which was what you did in L4D. The fact that you were scumreading me without actively pushing your hardest for my lynch also made me think of your play in the L4D game.

[mastin2]

I think what you saw as reaching out, I saw as sledging - trying to beat me down and sap my will to fight (which was already low because of how confused my reads were, which all centered on AP and RBD and getting hammered from so many sides for townreading RBD day one and poshumously on day 2) and trying to convince others you were right that I was scum, which was what you did in L4D.

Except in L4D, I was quite explicitly fighting you with an agenda the whole time, and this game, I quite clearly had none? I was trying to figure things out this game; in L4D, I was trying to sew discord. In L4D, I never backed down from calling you scum. In L4D, I never tried to obtain a read on you, never thought about you being town, never talked to you, never addressed you. I fought with you. I battled with you. I interacted with you...but those interactions were explicitly meant to accomplish nothing, because the whole point of my L4D interactions was to leave the town only thinking about suspecting town, and my interaction with you that game was designed by me to be that of me interacting with a scumbuddy.

And in this game, I quite explicitly, the MINUTE I realized the truth, flicked a switch. I spent time explaining where I came from originally (something I never did in L4D), what sparked my reversal in reads, and reached out to you to try and

reinforce

(not undermine) your reads. In L4D, I WAS undermining. Here, aside from your erroneous read on me, I was trying to GET your reads reinforced.

The fact that you were scumreading me without actively pushing your hardest for my lynch also made me think of your play in the L4D game.

Well, yeah...because you weren't my strongest scumread. As town, I typically will not pursue a wagon that's not a stronger read, even if there's a wagon on them. As scum, I have a slight lean towards pursuing targets that are "weaker" reads of mine while arguing for stronger reads. (For instance, "X is scum...but I'm gonna vote Y.") These are basically like 51% things in that they're fairly null, though. There's no tell, there, for me.

You were a weaker scumread...
...So I was pushing you.....weaker than my other scumreads.

[mastin2]

Also, I feel bad for not having the Rise Against video, so just have this one instead.

The lyrics to that song are rather clear...and ALSO a near-perfect fit.

[mastin2]

(In particular?

I’ve been tryin’ to keep my grip,
yeah I think I’m over this
Yeah my tongue will let it slip,
why’d I do those things I did
My innards turn, your eyes, they roll.
I’ll be there to take the fall
Same old story since day one,
but I’ve got no place to run

I’ll try my best,

how much do I invest?

Sound familiar?)

[mastin2]

Although if you guys just want to quicklynch town, so we can congratulate the scum team on a well-played game, that's cool too!

Yep.

Pretty much.

Would still prefer the time to finish the revised Ballad of Tales, serving as a summary of the game rather than as originally intended an in-depth explanation of it that gave my perspective.

[pieguyn]

It should set off red fucking flags that players who have been obvtown and many possessing powerful fucking PRs have lived...whereas players who have been lesser-town have been dieing in droves.
Like pie.

actually I died because fox and hound rolecopped me N1 and got scared of my role. we had a damn good role too, so I'm really sad about that. we were a JOAT that basically had to use all our powers in order, but if we survived till D7 we got to use them all again at once and get a dayvig shot. I was planning long term this game - my plan was to step back and reanalyze things D3 because I was like "hurrdurr there's no way in hell I get NK'ed" and then........... afskdjshfasdkf

and for the record my reads sans Nacho were rock solid after I waded through my reads on RBD/you not that it even matters since I got NK'ed

[pieguyn]

although it ended up working out for them

I was gonna deathtunnel the shit out of AP D3 just like I did with you, and no PR result would have changed that. AP was so scum I figured it was more likely that he was a godfather or that JSU was scum with him than he was actually town - that, and I had literally no idea who could be scum if it wasn't AP. and I probably could have got AP lynched over Katsuki since I would have been loud as fuck about it too

smh

[zMuffinMan]

To be fair, he's thinking that's because AP didn't include the random oneshot jailkeep add on in post 3123 that he later claimed

is there a reason he's not taking into account that he shared the information at night while nacho is still alive?

[zMuffinMan]

like is he not at all suspicious that the very start of the next day AP changed his claim?

[zMuffinMan]

coz that would be a pretty huge warning sign to me that i may have leaked information to scum

[zMuffinMan]

I think that's been this scum team's real strength, is killing players as they showed signs of emerging from the mist.

inorite

PV don corleone worth performance!

[zMuffinMan]

I didn't trust your reads, Mastin. Even after you died.

that reminds me. i asked nati if his 'card' was still used up because you let mastin get lynched. he said he didn't know

[fferyllt]

Mastin, we can both hope that our reads are better, sooner, and stay correct next time I guess. Sometimes a game feels different on the inside than it appears from an external view.

Knowing that you had watched Death's Diner and that you had *played the game with me* in L4D and yet could characterize my play in this game as scummy was one huge anomaly for me to try to reconcile.

The other anomaly was simply how hard you pushed your reads and your interactions with me this game. Never, except for the L4D game have you quoted so many of my posts (on day 1 even) and addressed stuff directly to me or about me. I can see now that it was an across the board change in your play, but at the time, living the game it was incredibly anomalous.

After trying to engage you in the Imperishable Night game, I had decided to try and sort you from a distance. prior to these last 2 games, that worked decently well.

I didn't trust your reads, Mastin. Even after you died.

that reminds me. i asked nati if his 'card' was still used up because you let mastin get lynched. he said he didn't know

The card hasn't expired!

[mastin2]

PV don corleone worth performance!

Earlygame.
He shaped up his game later.

Knowing that you had watched Death's Diner and that you had *played the game with me* in L4D and yet could characterize my play in this game as scummy was one huge anomaly for me to try to reconcile.

To be fair: Saying I learned much about you from Death's Diner would be quite unfair, considering how my perspective is obviously not going to be very good, there. (For instance, you're saying they're similar, and while I vaguely can see it, I still think that whatever frustration you had in that game was practically nonexistent compared to what you demonstrated this game.) Also, in L4D...I didn't really see the emotions from you. If I did, I think I mighta kinda assumed it came from the pie half. But really, I didn't even see your play, there, really. That wasn't my goal, and frankly, you weren't the half of the hydra I was even focusing on. (You're dangerous; I considered pie to be

more

dangerous, so

he

was my target. Not you.) I was focusing on setting my team up for the win, so the majority of my posting was focusing on my scumbuddies, focusing on not getting lynched yet, and focusing on interacting with town in incriminating ways: distancing-but-not-bussing you, buddying Vezok and that one hydra which had ns in it (forget the name) and Bulbazak, stuff like that. Plus getting a mislynch on RedCoyote.

Different games, different perspectives, different outlook on them.

[Nachomamma8]

Mastin, I'm extraordinarily sorry for the way I treated you in thread.
I'm extremely, extremely sorry.

[Nachomamma8]

This was a scumgame where I wanted to do some experimenting: a lot of my game is centered around positive reinforcement, making people feel good, etc., but it's not as effective late game when you're encouraging people to turn against each other. One of the flaws of my scumgame is that I tend to need to put myself in the line of fire in order to bury that, and I think the way to get around that is with negative reinforcement which has that very tendency.

I felt comfortable making that dive against you because I felt you would understand the need to kind of push yourself over the edge a bit in order for that improvement and I hope that I didn't make that assumption incorrectly. I love you as a person: you're one of my favorite players and people and I hope you don't hate me!

[Nachomamma8]

That being said, this is a game that I was glad I was scum so I could chuckle at all of the bullshit instead of rip my hair out over it.

[zMuffinMan]

here comes the moment of truth

[Nachomamma8]

and poor ap is still trying to mislynch jsu
I <3 him

[zMuffinMan]

honestly though, regardless of whatever PV did after i died (i am not sure i only loosely followed the game)

vig killing me helped you guys out so much it's not even funny

you never would have got the mastin lynch to go through with me still alive

you never would have been able to lynch me because even with JSU, F16 and PV you would never have had the numbers

and i had my sights set on scum during the night phase. i basically told nati we are lynching between {FoxHound, Clyton and PV} tomorrow and nati had PV as town.