But you didn't provide any reasoning though. You just said that the last couple of pages made Tim Howard scum and joined the wagon which Reck was on. Then he asked why and said that a persecution complex didn't make anyone scum. So, I guess a charitable interpretation would be that Reck found Tim's early posts scummy but not so much those past few pages and that's why he took issue with your vote. But his subsequent posts suggest that he wasn't actually townreading Tim Howard either where he says "it feels very much like quadz could be scum" in Post 423.
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What I want to know is if Quadz could be scum, what's the issue with UT's vote?
They just have a really big persecution complex but experience dictates that a persecution complex does not make someone mafia.
Why do you object to UT's vote on Tim Howard here when you were voting him too?
because my early votes on Tim Howard were for reasons that weren't "the last couple of pages" and I thought handwaving anything else Tim had done and joining the wagon with the Jewish grandmother shtick only commenting on TH's reaction to their wagon or w/e was pretty bad
their reaction to the wagon was actually lessening my scumread on them which is why I found it weird
So, I am re-reading the game and thinking about it and I am not sure how it makes sense. If I am right about my townreads on Nero Cain, Zdenek, Cerulean, and UT, that leaves two scum among Reck, Tim Howard, Plum, and Nobody Special. The problem is that unless Reck is scum, I can't see any of the other players making the night kills that they are making. {Sixty, Plessiez, Chamber, Shadoweh}. For one, I'd expect Cerulean to be night killed pretty quickly possibly on N1 since they are the largest threat in this game to any scumteam.
The Plessiez kill on N2 wasn't a huge surprise. I was afraid of losing Cerulean but thought my hint at protective roles being on them might have deterred a kill. Tammy's post towards the end of D2 saying that she wanted to nail down reads on me and Plessiez to get a better sense of the game made me think that one of us or Plessiez would be killed. With the way the Kanye lynch went down, Plessiez being more obvtown than me made him the ideal kill.
Chamber kill on N3 was somewhat surprising and I do agree with Shadoweh that his reads felt weird. His biggest scumreads were us, Cerulean, and Nero Cain. I'm pretty sure he told that to everyone that those were his reads and I feel he is on the wrong track for the most part. I think scum would kill him to frame those players. My first thoughts on Shadoweh questioning me about Chamber's thoughts was that she was the scum setting us up through the nk but I chose not to say anything at that time in thread to see how the game pans out further and I wanted to see who else would be nk'd and what Venmar would flip.
I was pretty surprised to see Shadoweh killed on N4. If the scumteam truly is among Reck, NS, Plum, Tim, I don't think they've set themselves up for endgame very well. If I trust Tammy's read on Reck, it feels even less likely that the scum are {Tim, Plum, NS} making the kills that they made and it overall just doesn't make sense.
I'm also eager to hear who Empire's other scumread is because if you are town, I really think we are both wrong somewhere readswise. I don't know if you disagree with any of my reads. There is not a snowballs chance in hell Zdenek or Nero Cain are scum in this game. We're both agreed UT is town. Tammy says Reck is town which leaves Tim, and the other scum between Plum and NS which isn't really making a whole lot of sense. I am not even super confident in Tim being scum. They are a pain to meta since I don't really know which posts are whose unless they sign and finding their games has been annoying as well. If you could outline a few points and links really quick when you have time, that'll be awesome. I am talking more of specific posts that make you think it won't come from town-Nexus, or town-Quadz.
Was this relevant to some point when it was posted?
I'm wary about Flipping Awesome. Chamber and FA had outside-thread contact as of at least the Night before Chamber was killed. Shadoweh knew about this and asked incisive questions about the nature of their communication. Shadoweh is now dead. So, something to keep in mind and pursue and not forget about. Seriously.
Doing some thinking about how likely it is that the scum were split 2/1 on/off the LLD wagon or what . . .
Plum, first off regarding the outside thread contact: Chamber wasn't a self-watcher. His role is basically that everyone who visits him enters into a private QT with him. That's obviously why he wanted Zdenek to target him D1, and that's why Shadoweh and I had out of thread contact with Chamber.
Calling Shadoweh's questions "incisive" is kind of a stretch.
Explain your scumread on Reck please. Explanation of other reads would be awesome as well.
I didn't say Chamber was a self-watcher. I just noted that Chamber was killed at some point after you gained QT access with him. He and Shadoweh also shared QT access, as you noted, and she was privy to at least some material from him regarding the QT the two of you shared. Shadoweh is now dead. I don't care if you don't think her questions were particularly incisive, to be honest.
Reck is part PoE, part, well, has this guy actually done anything this game at all? At all? Besides, look at what wagons Reck was on. Pushing significantly for Nero over kanye as time ran down Day 2, major contributor to the LLD wagon going through Day 3 (after also almost entirely ignoring her all game), basically ignored Venmar the entire game even Day 4. His style of contribution also seems to me to be the sort intended to create more apathy. A lot of filler, really. Is the stated 'I thought I spotted a cop breadcrumb on Kanye Day 2 etc.' thing so weird to be coming from scum that this is all negligible? Hell no. I think a lot of this play is likely to be calculated scum machinations. The LLD stuff especially just reeks of saying whatever will keep things moving forward with the Mist (the bizarre switch to UT after LLD's case followed shortly by the switch back to LLD, just look at it, seriously, please).
I'm still considering things too. I don't want to discount TH as a possibility per se (trying to theorycraft with his role as seen to figure out if some sort of limited version would produce his approach to the power as viable, really, or wondering about it as a gambit, given the pressure he was under Day 1).
If you read, I gave the impression that I changed my mind about UT during Day 2 based on what Cerulean said to me. This was intentionally inaccurate; other information prompted the shift. I later indicated that the information might not have been as strong as I originally believed, which was an accurate statement (the information remains potentially relevant, however). As it stands I do want to reread UT to assess how much bussing and what sort would have needed to go into the Venmar stuff. Right now I think Reck's more likely scum than UT. NS is I think less likely to be scum than you/Reck/TH but ruling him out completely at this point is not what I'm doing.
Zdenek Cerulean Nero Cain solid Townreads. I don't particularly feel like explaining any of that and I don't feel I have to.
Yes, Reck was on the wrong side of a bunch of wagons. Now
look at his play
, look at what he
does
and what
results
if you happen to be Town, FA. If not, I don't see why you'd much bother, etc.
For the reasons I outlined before that post. I thought FA was being somewhat obtuse when they acknowledged my point about the wagons you were on but responded along the lines of 'I haven't figured out what that signifies yet'. Trying to nudge them to see that I had in fact offered some interpretation of the context intended to show what and why I think it signifies, and that what I pointed out about your play on some of those wagons wasn't just to be ignored.
In post 2408, Plum wrote:Reck is part PoE, part, well, has this guy actually done anything this game at all? At all? Besides, look at what wagons Reck was on. Pushing significantly for Nero over kanye as time ran down Day 2, major contributor to the LLD wagon going through Day 3 (after also almost entirely ignoring her all game), basically ignored Venmar the entire game even Day 4. His style of contribution also seems to me to be the sort intended to create more apathy. A lot of filler, really. Is the stated 'I thought I spotted a cop breadcrumb on Kanye Day 2 etc.' thing so weird to be coming from scum that this is all negligible? Hell no. I think a lot of this play is likely to be calculated scum machinations. The LLD stuff especially just reeks of saying whatever will keep things moving forward with the Mist (the bizarre switch to UT after LLD's case followed shortly by the switch back to LLD, just look at it, seriously, please).
Whew, I missed this.
I've been on shitty wagons and have fucked up big time but that's not actually a scum tell at all (for reference, see The Reckoning III, where I was WAY off on my reads).
I ignored Venmar for a very specific reason and tried to get momentum elsewhere because I was feeling guilty about something that I'll probably talk about at a later time.
Also if you think I'm calculated as scum, you clearly don't know my scum (or town) game play. I don't calculate anything. Ever. I'm pretty reactionary all the time.
Eh, I wouldn't blame people for wanting to lynch me though. Every day I've gotten more defeated about my play this game. It's something about Faraday games, man, I just lose my shit and go full idiot in them.
I'm not trying to paint you as a diabolical, Mastin-like figure of calculated scumhood - I meant that a lot of your contributions seemed very loose and casual, but seemed likely to me to have been in service to a scum agenda/scum benefit. E.g. I'm sure your reaction to LLD's UT case was 'reactionary' - I just think it looks scummy and to scum benefit despite its superficial casualness.
my recollection was that some scum in that game specifically was pulling that tell
it's also worked for me a number of times recently
Pedit.
look at me not voting for you though. it's glorious. I'm not sure if you're aware that you're a pretty good player and I have to be on my toes around you?
- I meant that a lot of your contributions seemed very loose and casual, but seemed likely to me to have been in service to a scum agenda/scum benefit. E.g. I'm sure your reaction to LLD's UT case was 'reactionary' - I just think it looks scummy and to scum benefit despite its superficial casualness.![:]](./images/smilies/icon_smiling.png "Cheerful Smile"){kind=icon}