Mini 1580: EpicMafiaTime [GAME OVER]

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't really have much else to add. I find the Mirhawk/HC convo slightly woggly to me since HC isn't voting Kthxbye, and Mir isn't outright calling him town, but I think that's more interesting once we get a few flips. Right now all I'd really do with it is create a paranoid plot and then scream about it. Not so helpful that.

I think I feel a bit better about the Generic slot though.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I don't really have much else to add. I find the Mirhawk/HC convo slightly woggly to me since HC isn't voting Kthxbye, and Mir isn't outright calling him town, but I think that's more interesting once we get a few flips. Right now all I'd really do with it is create a paranoid plot and then scream about it. Not so helpful that.

I think I feel a bit better about the Generic slot though.

Why is that weird? I can't vote for two people at once.

[Bookitty]

What alignment do you like playing as? Be honest, because I'm going to check your answer.

Honestly, I like playing scum when my partners are active and don't get themselves caught D1. On the other hand, I really like playing town PR's as I tend to live a long time due to being scummy enough to not get NK'ed and towny enough to not be lynched. I'm not a fan of VT, but I do make some exceptions to that in themed games.

I have often been accused of using too many words to make my point, but not in the way kthxbye does it in this first paragraph. He's thrown in just about every single excuse possible. Maybe he was nervous about RC checking on him.

Who is more scummy at this point? TN or Mir?

Why are you asking this? Is our choice of lynch already narrowed down to these 2 players?

Yes. Yes, it is. That's exactly why Salamence was asking, because we have no other choice but to lynch one of {tn, Mirhawk}. I'll turn it around, kthxbye, why are YOU asking a question to which you already know the answer?

Generic is absolutely right with this:

Ok, let's start with the need you felt you had to fence sit because you had commited to a claim you loved the role and someone cleverly put you on the spot with it.
You knew your meta would flag up a love of scum roles, so already you were on the back foot. So you cobble together a convoluted answer

I do see something that I don't like, though, that doesn't have to do with kthxbye. Red Coyote, you know that Haschel said he didn't look at the time stamps, as in, he didn't know that tn hadn't read his post yet. That's not the same as saying he hadn't noticed it had only been a short while. They are two different things. Haschel may or may not have looked at the time stamps. He admits he was pressuring TN to respond quickly, so RC's reaction seems odd to me.

Here is something else that I don't like:

@ sal - your replacement would have to convince me that I was wrong about you. YOUR PLAY suggests you are scum.

Jake you're not making sense. You're saying that Sal is def-scum for his move and can't convince you otherwise. You're going to tunnel until one of you is lynched. Thus the slot must be scum.

BUT, if he was replaced then maybe his replacement could convince you the slot isn't scum?

As someone who has replaced into more than my share of games, this logic looks completely artificial to me. Who hasn't thought a slot was scummity-scum-scum and then reevaluated it as town based on a replacement? This reads to me as scum fueling an already burning fire and is a question that isn't really looking for an answer.

Generic is right again when he says Sala was gambiting. I'm going on the record now as saying I don't like gambits much, but I don't think they're solely the province of scum, so I'm reserving judgment based on other things in the game.

I don't at all like Kthxbye's Post 149. I think this has been discussed already though.

Right now I'm watching Red Coyote because I think he's subtly misrepping some things that happened and trying to steer the town. I don't generally think the town needs steering and I don't personally respond very well to that, so it may be a playstyle conflict. Still, there are little things that don't seem exactly accurate the way he tells them. (The Haschel dispute, for instance.)

I'm going to predict a Not Voting-Red Coyote-kthxbye scum team and we'll see how close I was at the end of the game. I'm still suspicious of TN, but he's fourth on the list at this point. I'm sure Generic is town, pretty sure Squirrel Girl is town. Others are still reads in progress.

And since Squirrel Girl asked so nicely:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: kthxbye

[tn5421]

I do like what Squirrel is bringin' to the table to eat so far.

Pistachios.

This is the best thing that has happened this game. I like it.

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't really have much else to add. I find the Mirhawk/HC convo slightly woggly to me since HC isn't voting Kthxbye, and Mir isn't outright calling him town, but I think that's more interesting once we get a few flips. Right now all I'd really do with it is create a paranoid plot and then scream about it. Not so helpful that.

I think I feel a bit better about the Generic slot though.

Why is that weird? I can't vote for two people at once.

If you had examined the two and made a value call to vote one over the other, I would have expected more effort focused on the chosen one than the non-chosen one. Also, as even shown by this post from you, the conversation appeared to be going nowhere really. Even now, you didn't respond to his response, you didn't offer any insights. The interaction felt weird - it still does.

[Kthxbye]

I'll turn it around, kthxbye, why are YOU asking a question to which you already know the answer?

Reaction....umm....duh?

I'm going to predict a Not Voting-Red Coyote-kthxbye scum team

1 of 3 isn't the worst you could do, but it's certainly not very good by any stretch...

It did make me laugh though, as well as your vote and the 'reasoning' behind it.

If I'm nervous about RC checking up on me, then how do you come to your conclusion of the predicted scum team?

On that note, please explain how you came to said conclusion. How do the 3 of us mesh as a scum team?

Also, I ask NV to explain how my posts are more likely coming from scum than from town and you think I'm not going to ask you the same thing? I assume you think this as you don't explain why aside from it's different than what you are accused of?

Inconsistencies found.

Now watch this, I'll pull a rabbit out of my hat while explain why your post is likely coming from a scum mindset over a town mindset.
First, scum will want to push a wagon on town along while not stepping on any toes.
Second, scum are more likely to forget how people are interacting when they form opinions on who the possible scum team members are.

You did both in one post.

Now here's my prediction. If I'm right and NV is the scum on my wagon, you're likely his partner and threw him in your predicted scum team to try and distance without completely bussing him.
___________________________________
To those hung up on my wordy answer to RC's question of my preferred roles:

All I said was that I enjoy playing scum and town both depending on the circumstances. I just explained it in more detail. To those on my wagon, if asked the same question (which...I am asking the same question with this), what is your answer?

Next up would be how/why is it more likely that my role is a scum role over a town role when I call someone derp for derp reasoning of their derp vote? Please link me ANY game in which a player you played with in linked game did this very thing which colored your opinion of this action to be more likely coming from scum.

Think that about covers it. If anyone else plans on hopping on my wagon, go ahead and answer all the above as well in your post that you vote me so I don't have to quote this post to you after your vote. kthxbye

[Skullduggery]

Tysker has asked to be replaced. Currently searching for a replacement.

[Skullduggery]

Day 1, Vote Count #6

(0) RedCoyote
(2) tn5421 -- Salamence20, Haschel Cedricson
(0) d3x
(1) Not Voting -- Kthxbye
(0) Bookitty
(4) Kthxbye -- Generic, Not Voting, Squirrel Girl, Bookitty
(1) Haschel Cedricson -- RedCoyote
(0) Squirrel Girl
(0) tysker
(0) Mirhawk
(0) Generic
(1) Salamence20 -- tn5421
(1) Natirasha -- Natirasha

Not Voting: d3x, tysker, Mirhawk

With 13 players remaining, it takes 7 votes to hammer.

Day 1 Will End on Saturday, June 28th, at 7 p.m. eastern time.
Countdown: (expired on 2014-06-28 19:00:00)

d3x is V/LA until 6/23.

Next time, we eat RedCoyote's beard stubble.

.

[Bookitty]

I'll turn it around, kthxbye, why are YOU asking a question to which you already know the answer?

Reaction....umm....duh?

What reaction were you expecting? If Sala had said, "We are only lynching these two people today!" in response, what would you have derived from it? If Sala had said, "No, of course not, Mr. kthxbye, please tell me who to lynch," what would you have derived from that?

I'm going to predict a Not Voting-Red Coyote-kthxbye scum team

1 of 3 isn't the worst you could do, but it's certainly not very good by any stretch...

It did make me laugh though, as well as your vote and the 'reasoning' behind it.

If I'm nervous about RC checking up on me, then how do you come to your conclusion of the predicted scum team?

Why were you nervous about RC checking up on you, then? I was considering bussing, but RC is my least confident read in that lineup anyway. Anyway, I don't think anyone could have predicted your train wreck of a response, bussing scum OR town.

How do you know there's only one scum in that trio? Are you certain that Red Coyote is town? Why or why not?

On that note, please explain how you came to said conclusion. How do the 3 of us mesh as a scum team?

Also, I ask NV to explain how my posts are more likely coming from scum than from town and you think I'm not going to ask you the same thing? I assume you think this as you don't explain why aside from it's different than what you are accused of?

You're each independently scummy; I admit I could be wrong about RC. Your posts are more likely to come from scum than town because they are extensively overexplained and overdefensive. You're very quick to engage in OMGUS and to come out swinging at the first hint that anyone would consider you scum. Rather than make a measured defense, you immediately resort to insults and threats.

Inconsistencies found.

Now watch this, I'll pull a rabbit out of my hat while explain why your post is likely coming from a scum mindset over a town mindset.
First, scum will want to push a wagon on town along while not stepping on any toes.
Second, scum are more likely to forget how people are interacting when they form opinions on who the possible scum team members are.

You did both in one post.

Now here's my prediction. If I'm right and NV is the scum on my wagon, you're likely his partner and threw him in your predicted scum team to try and distance without completely bussing him.

I don't think I've exhibited any unwillingness to step on toes in this game. Admittedly, I'm not calling people VIs or suggesting that they are mentally disabled in some way, but I feel like I stepped on your toes pretty good. I don't think my expressed suspicions of RC are particularly safe either; however, I have this awesome superpower that lets me win with the town even if I die, so I am not scared of your threats nor particularly committed to my personal survival.

I thought TN might be scum based on his overreaction to pressure from Haschel. You've trumped that by FAR.

To those hung up on my wordy answer to RC's question of my preferred roles:

All I said was that I enjoy playing scum and town both depending on the circumstances. I just explained it in more detail. To those on my wagon, if asked the same question (which...I am asking the same question with this), what is your answer?

I prefer Vanilla Town. See, simple.

Next up would be how/why is it more likely that my role is a scum role over a town role when I call someone derp for derp reasoning of their derp vote? Please link me ANY game in which a player you played with in linked game did this very thing which colored your opinion of this action to be more likely coming from scum.

Overexplained and overinvolved explanations to a relatively simple question? Covering all the bases just in case someone does check on your claim? No, I can't say anyone has ever announced how happy they were with their role in the thread before. You should feel special, you're a unique snowflake!

[Squirrel Girl]

Your posts are more likely to come from scum than town because they are extensively overexplained and overdefensive.

This is pretty much where I'm coming from also.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Also, as even shown by this post from you, the conversation appeared to be going nowhere really. Even now, you didn't respond to his response, you didn't offer any insights. The interaction felt weird - it still does.

I haven't YET. That's deliberate.

[Squirrel Girl]

If you say so. It doesn't prevent it from looking weird from my perspective though, and you were asking why I thought it looked weird.

[Kthxbye]

Why were you nervous about RC checking up on you, then?

Where was I nervous about RC checking up on me?

How do you know there's only one scum in that trio? Are you certain that Red Coyote is town? Why or why not?

I don't, it's an educated guess based on my being town and the wagon being shite.
I'm certain of nothing.
What kind of question is 'why or why not'? Didn't you in the same breath just say something about wasted space and filler? The only way to be fairly certain of alignments is if you have a scum role....or where you looking for me to answer with 'I know RC is town is because I'm scum'?

extensively overexplained and overdefensive.

This is pretty much where I'm coming from also.

So half my wagon thinks I over explained and was overdefensive while the other half think I was dismissive and deflecting..... Interesting.

I feel like I stepped on your toes pretty good.

lol, you give yourself too much credit.

I thought TN might be scum based on his overreaction to pressure from Haschel. You've trumped that by FAR.

There is a difference between overreaction and looking to your wagon for scum when you're town. One is finding the scum voting on the mislynch wagon while the other is using the info and facts at your disposal to find scum.

You also failed to link a post where these actions point to scum alignment over town alignment.

@SG: In vampire, you were much more active in questioning where in this game, you seem to be happy following. In vampire, I was scum and you were right on with your questioning me (which is why I wanted you dead N1 even after I fielded your questions to a point of you losing some suspicion). In this game, I'm town and you are letting others make statements and simply agreeing with them instead of asking questions yourself. Why?

@Everyone: Let's say it took 4 to lynch and I flipped town. Is there scum on my wagon? If yes, then who and why?

If people actually answer the above, I might even claim so y'all can see the reasoning behind some of my comments and we can move forward and lynch scum D1.

[Squirrel Girl]

So half my wagon thinks I over explained and was overdefensive while the other half think I was dismissive and deflecting..... Interesting.

Isn't the dismissive thing Mirhawk's? He's not voting you. Also, I'd agree that you were dismissive, you were dismissive after being called out on being over explain-y. Both situations exist, that some find one aspect more telling than another actually isn't all that interesting to me except on a highly theory driven thought process of 'how the game is played'

I sort of felt like you were trying to be dismissive of your wagon here though.
Am I allowed to cite you for being dismissive here, or would that destroy my ability to also suggest that you have been over explain-y? If I'm only allowed to do one I'll stick to over explain-y

@SG: In vampire, you were much more active in questioning where in this game, you seem to be happy following. In vampire, I was scum and you were right on with your questioning me (which is why I wanted you dead N1 even after I fielded your questions to a point of you losing some suspicion). In this game, I'm town and you are letting others make statements and simply agreeing with them instead of asking questions yourself. Why?

Dunno. Maybe I had more time then or had a more focused line of questioning I was pursuing. I feel I've been fairly up front with my thoughts and have pursued the ones important to me.

@Everyone: Let's say it took 4 to lynch and I flipped town. Is there scum on my wagon? If yes, then who and why?

So, basically the question is "are there scum on my wagon?" This is the wagon;

Generic, Not Voting, Squirrel Girl, Bookitty

I have Boo as town and Generic as leaning town. If you flipped town off a magic 4 person lynch I would be mildly suspect of Not Voting, who also has the laziest vote on you.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Kthx - actually, thinking about it, who am I letting lead me? I think the agreement with Boo is like, literally the first and only thing I've noted wherein I just pointed and someone else and said "yeah, that!".

Like, it's literally the only thing where I've "followed" so where are you getting the 'SG is playing different and is too much of a follower' vibe from?

[Squirrel Girl]

I really want the above answered. I just ISOed myself and like my first 6 posts contain about 5 examples of me disagreeing with someone.

[Bookitty]

Why were you nervous about RC checking up on you, then?

Where was I nervous about RC checking up on me?

Why would you feel the need to explain how you like every single permutation of role in your reply to RC if you weren't nervous? If you were a powerrole, why would you ever say you like your role in your first post? I see you softclaiming, but why would you draw attention to it in your FIRST POST if you really were?

How do you know there's only one scum in that trio? Are you certain that Red Coyote is town? Why or why not?

I don't, it's an educated guess based on my being town and the wagon being shite.
I'm certain of nothing.
What kind of question is 'why or why not'? Didn't you in the same breath just say something about wasted space and filler? The only way to be fairly certain of alignments is if you have a scum role....or where you looking for me to answer with 'I know RC is town is because I'm scum'?

I was actually looking for you to comment on why or why not you think RC is town or scum. That would give info for later after you or he flips. Why don't you want to answer that?

Like this: "I'm not certain that Generic is town, but his responses and his questions are in line with what I would expect from a townie, so I don't think he's scum."

Why is every question anyone asks you met with panic or "lol"?

I feel like I stepped on your toes pretty good.

lol, you give yourself too much credit.

See what I mean? LOL, but you dedicated a whole post to me not stepping on your toes. OMG, it's so LOL.

I thought TN might be scum based on his overreaction to pressure from Haschel. You've trumped that by FAR.

There is a difference between overreaction and looking to your wagon for scum when you're town. One is finding the scum voting on the mislynch wagon while the other is using the info and facts at your disposal to find scum.

You also failed to link a post where these actions point to scum alignment over town alignment.

Oddly enough, I'm not compelled to reread every game I ever played to think you're scummy and to vote you. Mafia is weird like that.

@Everyone: Let's say it took 4 to lynch and I flipped town. Is there scum on my wagon? If yes, then who and why?

If people actually answer the above, I might even claim so y'all can see the reasoning behind some of my comments and we can move forward and lynch scum D1.

Yeah, I think Not Voting is probably scum on your wagon. Pretty sure I said that before.

[Mirhawk]

@Generic
That's not really what I meant, insults and calling somebody's logic bad to their face isn't quite what I meant by discrediting. What I watch for is more along the lines of indirect discrediting.

So I'm not seeing K as scummy here. His last few posts in particular feel like a realistic response from a town perspective.

Boo's 227 and 233 on the other hand are scummy.

The fact that you bring up K's 149 without commenting on it is questionable. Not a single person who's brought it up has actually mentioned what makes it scummy. How is it then that you can use as a case that doesn't need to be explained?

And what exactly is RC misrepresenting? Why imply it without making it explicit? If you think he's lying to the town bring it up. I know at the very least TN would be interested in lynching him for that.

Also all the responses in 233 avoid actually answering any of the questions K asks.

[Mirhawk]

Vote: Boo

[Bookitty]

Ok, let's start with the need you felt you had to fence sit because you had commited to a claim you loved the role and someone cleverly put you on the spot with it.
You knew your meta would flag up a love of scum roles, so sleeady you were on the back foot. Do you cobble together a convoluted answer that admits to such but then desperately tries to claw it back with comments that include a vague remark about sometimes living the theme, and hinting at a PR which you even then desperately try to cover over with the crap about vanilla roles.

So instead of a straight forward 'it was actually the flavour it was excited about' you clearly tried to dig yourself out of a hole.

vote kthxbye

Glad you were so excited about my response though, feel free to give a convoluted answer as to why about that too.

......pfft...bwahahahahahahaha!

thanks mate, I haven't laughed like that since I was a little girl.


Jake's play so far reminds me of his town game.

Red always looks town whether he is scum or not sooooo we shall see.

Not Voting's 102 is baaaaaaaad.

Generic went full retard. Everyone knows you should never go full retard.

Though I think Not Voting is probs scum for that weak ass vote, I think I will just sheep Jake today.

VOTE: Sal

Since you asked:

Kthxbye's not taking responsibility for his own vote on Sal nor is he giving any justification for it. He's sheeping Jake even though he thinks Not Voting is probably scum. He insults another player without actually giving any reasons for why he believes Generic is playing poorly. Kthxbye doesn't actually answer any of Generic's points, which are valid; he just LOLs at them and dismisses them. (Yeah, see, you can be overinvolved in one post and then dismissive in the next. Who knew?) He's wishy-washy on RC (read Red above) and sets himself up to go either way on it. He fails to say one thing in that post for which he takes any responsibility at all.

Have I left anything out? I thought it was obvious, but now I've lined it out for you.

[Bookitty]

I do see something that I don't like, though, that doesn't have to do with kthxbye. Red Coyote, you know that Haschel said he didn't look at the time stamps, as in, he didn't know that tn hadn't read his post yet. That's not the same as saying he hadn't noticed it had only been a short while. They are two different things. Haschel may or may not have looked at the time stamps. He admits he was pressuring TN to respond quickly, so RC's reaction seems odd to me.

I didn't look at the time stamps.

I don't buy this, HC. I think this is a flat out lie. You mean to tell me you posted questions to tn at 11:27 PM, he answered an unreleated question at 11:28 PM, you called him out for not answering your questions at 11:31 PM, and you didn't look at the time? You didn't realize that it had only been ~4 minutes since you asked him the questions? The questions you specifically told him you wanted him to "think about"?

I kind of dismissed it as overanxious at first, but now I'm seriously concerned with you trying to backtrack here.

I don't often look at the time stamps. Generally they aren't relevant. If Haschel refreshed and saw a response, he may not have seen the time stamps. I honestly don't know nor do I have any way to find out. I do know that provoking quick answers to questions can sometimes cause scum to slip up. I think RC is probably a pretty canny player and that he knows that too. So his comment about Haschel over what is essentially an unprovable point ever (how will we ever know for sure if Haschel looked at or didn't look at the time stamps?) struck me as an odd point and a bit of a misrep. It's like me accusing you of never having read my original post that I quoted at the start of this one. Did you read it and forget it? Did you skim over it? I can't know for sure, but I can surely frame my argument to suggest that you are lying no matter what you say. I don't KNOW that RC is doing that, but I'm going to watch him. More so because he criticised me at the start of the game for joining a wagon instead of aggressively pursuing my own suspicions, and he then criticises Haschel for being too aggressive in pursuing his own suspicions.

[tn5421]

There are quite a lot of interesting things going on in here.

UNVOTE:

[Not Voting]

I want to hear Not Voting's reasons I'm likely scum.

Let's start at #87 First you start your post with "Honestly," a hint to me that you may have a guilty conscience and feel the need to qualify your statements as honest, rather than just state them. Following the "honestly", you then cover every base possible for what was a simple question. Your word choice also seems as though you thought quite a bit about the question and your answer, rather than just answering. I would have expected a townie to answer something like that quickly and easily without having to qualify.

And, IMO, you've done nothing redeeming since. After that initial ping, you've seemed to couch everything you say into a narrative to fit your views, rather than reading the posts and hunting from there. Example is #179 where you suddenly act as though you could have been soft-claiming in order to make everybody's vote on you fit a narrative that just isn't there. And then there is the post of "1 out of 3" which just looks like TMI in a bad way.

NV: While you figuring out how my 87 is more likely from scum than town and then trying to explain it, why do you have good feelings on Boo, Sal, Red, and HC? Do you still have good feelings on them? What about their posts make them likely town to you?

Also, what are you thoughts on Jake having me at null and then SG replacing and voting me? What would this mean if I flipped scum? What would this mean if I flipped town?

As for Boo, Sal, Red, and HC, it is mostly tone reading. How forcefully to follow up questions, how much they spread around their inquiries, etc. I still have good feelings on them. In fact, I'm even more certain of Sal and HC being town since I posted last.

As for Jake, that whole thing was just weird and way too emo gross. I like that SG came in and formed her own opinions. I don't think it means much of anything whether you're scum or town though, as I'd expect plenty of D1 distancing/bussing/misdirection from the scum team.

[tn5421]

Basically its bookitty vs kthxbye, bookitty vs mirhawk, squirrel vs kthxbye, squirrel vs HC, and kthxbye vs everyone.

[Not Voting]

There are quite a lot of interesting things going on in here.

UNVOTE:

Congrats, you're now #2 on my scum list for this post alone.