Ikaruga Mafia (Game Over!)

[ZZZX]

I am still figuring Thor out, it always takes me a while and looking forward to PN clarifying the slot since Nacho had to bow out and there was jack nothing on his slot when he had it which concerns me since usually I can peg Nacho.

I am not as convinced as you are that Jon is scum though. I have gotten him mislynched in the past because of his lurky loo behavior.



PEDIT that was to Necro and his blanket everyone is poison on the ZZZK wagon.

Rach you played many games with me in the past with 3(?) of them finished. How is my play here differant than say... 333? Leading and asking questions is how I did that game and how I got that game won. I gave no read list there as noone asked to and still ended up nailing BOTH scum and wining the night game. I expected you to read me right too but somehow you are just going with the Naked Oppurtanistic Voters,,, :<

[ZZZX]

Also not sure if TheNecro is very smart or just Whiteknighting like a boss LOL

[RachMarie]

LOL yeah I get heebie jeebies when I see a person pushing so hard that so and so is TOWN all you of he (or she) is TOWN and you all should just shut up and LISTEN

[RachMarie]

all of you,

ooopppssss

[ZZZX]

LOL yeah I get heebie jeebies when I see a person pushing so hard that so and so is TOWN all you of he (or she) is TOWN and you all should just shut up and LISTEN

If you trust he is whiteknighting why arent you voting me?

[ZZZX]

are* damn typos/

[Nero Cain]

guys, just let me take care of Mastin tonight

[RachMarie]

fine I will unvote

UNVOTE:


Still not convinced on Jon being scum though....

[RachMarie]

what Nero???

[ZZZX]

fine I will unvote

UNVOTE:


Still not convinced on Jon being scum though....

What about Starflower?

[Nero Cain]

you rather have me take care of you then, rach?

[The Necromancers]

So I decided to humor people and do half the talah/jon case.

Shiny Hydreigon (1): Fear
Saki (4): ZZZX, Doublade, Aegor, Dry-fit
TiphaineDeath (1): Sharpest-knife-on-tree
Dry-fit (1): Saki
The Most Curious Thing (3): TiphaineDeath, Xayzeck, PeregrineV
Natirasha (1): MafiaSSK
Xayzeck (4): The Most Curious Thing, Natirasha, Zdenek, TheNecromancers
TheNecromancers (3): Jordan_Downey, Talah, Spring Starflower
Not Voting (4): Shiny Hydreigon, Nachomamma8, TSO, RachMarie

Saki (2): ZZZX, Dry-fit
Dry-fit (1): Saki
The Most Curious Thing (1): PeregrineV
Natirasha (1): MafiaSSK
Talah (1): TheNecromancers
Xayzeck (3): The Most Curious Thing, Zdenek, TiphaineDeath
TheNecromancers (8): Jordan_Downey, Talah, Xayzeck, Natirasha, Sharpest-knife-on-tree, Aegor, Doublade, Fear
Jordan_Downey (2): Shiny Hydreigon, Spring Starflower
Not Voting (3): Nachomamma8, TSO, RachMarie

Part of the case, but commentary outside. For the record, it really wouldn't surprise me if there was a comment in the scum PT about everyone piling up on me.

Basic rundown on my wagon:

talah:

To understand this read, you have to understand our histories together as players. I've basically outlined it, but there's a difference between quoting and linking to. Here is Gundam Seed, where we were basically introduced to one another. The dead QT, where we talk. Check out message 56 where I cheer as talah catches onto the scum in Kalimar. Then message 64. (65 I think, too.) 69 as well. And from there all the way to 79.

Mastin rageposting. LOL. Let's hydra in a few months or something - I'm dead in all games now and it suits me okay, but I love your attention to detail and I think you'd be great to work with bouncing ideas off.

I die (ESPECIALLY DURING THE DAY), you pretty much know the town's in for a whole lotta HURT.

And talah responded with a smiley. Basically, talah knows that I am an incredibly strong, valuable town player. Which talah even commented on.

It was nice to be able to re-read your posts and look for intent, and then

be able to quiz you on specifics

and have more insight to counteract 'teh mysteriez of succinct'. Actually if you'd survived a day or two I think

it would have been really easy for you to have obvtowned with that posting style+

openness

- obviously scum thought you'd already got there.

Note the contrast here to that game. Note how talah pushed me as scum, without asking questions, without asking inquiries, without that follow-through. I'm just as much open if not moreso this game. Yeah, I've begun by not explaining in detail. But I've been willing to, and have already done so slightly.

Next up, Time distortion. It's as talah said in 172: We made posts basically without using our QT that synched up nearly perfectly, for better or for worse. I posted stuff that talah agreed with, and vice-versa, before the other had the chance to have posted it. Sometimes ninjaing each other on the same exact point just said differently, but using not only the same basic reasoning but reaching the same ultimate conclusion. Showing that, yes, we do synch up fairly well as town.

I already mentioned 172, but again, check out talah's attitude towards me there. He brings up this history. I am forced to dismiss it. He continues pressing valid points about me, and I was kinda not doing very well as a result. Yet here's a critical factor:

talah was extremely hesitant to keep his vote on me

. He voted me because he correctly had me as scum...but he wanted to be wrong. He tried giving me every benefit of the doubt possible, and recognized the chance he could be wrong, and if so, lynching me D1 would be a Very Bad Idea (TM). This game...none of that has been shown.

This game, I'm the one who brought up our history, and now HE is dismissing it. He's kept his vote on me, showing no hesitance about it, in spite of saying that he thinks he can read me correctly and the fact that, bluntly, I'm one of the towniest players in the game right now which means if EVER there was a game where he should be townreading me, it's this one.

Thus, why he's among my stronger scumreads. If not my strongest.

This one's outside as well, 'cause I think my commentary on Jordan is noteworthy. It should be mentioned Fear/Titus was a scumread even back then, too.

Spoiler: talah half of the talah/jon case

And had a 'one raised eyebrow' read on mastin primarily for not understanding/agreeing with the early reads, then Anti clarified that they're a hydra. So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

So.
I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly.
It's fully possible I'm reading it the wrong way.

But if I'm not misreading this.
If I'm not misunderstanding this.

Talah's actually scum this game, for the very same reason he called me scum in 172.

It begins here. talah's posting being out of synch with my own, and scumreading our slot. The very same things he used to peg me as scum in 172. Which I elaborate on.

Can you explain your townread on mastin please?

A much, much, much better question would be:
Why aren't

you

townreading me?

Yeah I thought her assessment and immediate read change was weird too. Especially considering mastin was indeed scum in that game.

Precisely my point. In that game, I scumread you. You called me out on it. "Mastin would NEVER scumread me if she was town so early. Least of all considering how well we work together." You later went on in the dead QT to talk about how you think you can read me accurately in future games, and I even agreed it was distinctly possible.
In this game, you scumread me. And I'm calling you out on it--I don't think you would be scumreading me if you were town, least of all considering how well we work together and how you fancy yourself able to read me. Yet I'm town and you're pushing the idea I'm not.

And then I clarify:

(No, voting me is not inherently a scumtell.
Yes,

talah

voting me is a scumtell.
It's not some silly omgus. It's got history backing it.)

Because it wasn't omgus at all. Just like talah's wasn't in 172, in spite of him being accused of it.

mastin I *knew* that I could get a good read on you based on your entrance. Your town and scum entrances are

vastly

different even though you don't seem aware of the differences.

(For the record, I think this is true of talah, too. Compare talah's entrance this game to other town games.)

A big ping was immediately differing reads. I don't think you put down more than two or three insta-reads which you actually have any meat behind. In the last game we played together where we hydra'd, I understood your reads *immediately*. I expected you to enter the thread with either slight disdain for my aggression or a hearty 'hullo' and you've done neither.

You've not tried to connect with me; not tried to *get* a read on me - you've simply said I'm scum and voted me.

In particular, compare that to this.

So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

(Which is super interesting considering you've just voted someone else even though you think I'm

definitely

scum).

(Which talah is also guilty of doing.)

So I feel like at least we have an amiable connection to the point where if mastin's town, I'd like to work with her, and I'd think that she'd be far more cautious and wanting to determine my alignment rather than just dropping a vote on me and then telling me I know virtually nothing about her.

Mokay. I'm actually happy to let mastin do her thing for the remainder of the day, and interact as necessary (or as prompted by her).

Probably more relevant ones if I dug deeper (this is a multitasking lazily-done search), but it conveys the idea.

Talah as town I was expecting to be working with me. Not against me.

Anyway if you're town all you would need to do is be the honest-mastin that exists in your towngames.

So why haven't you seen it?

SSK did.

Like I said, I'd absolutely LOVE to be wrong about this, but your attitude here just isn't what I'd expect from a town-you, given that this is the town-me you've seen before.

Talah where is your hyper puppy like posting? I am beginning to worry about you.

^That.

mastin as ??? explaining a scumread without reasoning

Yeah, but I've seen you around so I have a fairly decent idea of what you're capable of doing as town.
This...doesn't seem like it.
Your posting is empty. There's nothing there. Rock-solid, no, 'specially since I don't have that absolute familiarity. Decently-assured, yes, yes I am.

mastin as scum explaining a "scumread" without reasoning

Talah was a scumread for much of the reasoning Rogers presented, though my own wording is slightly different--basically, there's nothing genuine about talah's posting; it's hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty. He's playing a highly-reactionary game rather than a proactive one, and overall, he feels like he's not scumhunting; he feels like he's trying to get a feeling for how to manipulate players.

Know how, normally, when there's a similarity between two games, I'll fully admit it? Y'know. "Okay, I can kinda see that.
...It's wrong, but I can see why you'd think it's right."
Stuff like that?
Or "Sure, but it doesn't mean what you think it does."?
And similar?

Yeah, well.
Have that in mind when I say this.

Those two are absolutely

nothing

alike, and you comparing my game to 172 (when they're basically the difference between night and day) is setting off all kinds of alarm bells.

One of the main things talah and I had in our discussions was that talah would learn to not read me by that meta. We both know that it's a mistake. We both know that it'll lead to a misread on me. That point GreyICE made is kinda what I'm talking about, in that we discussed it. I'll have to pull up the dead QT for the precise wording, but basically, it was agreed--talah would be able to read me on my play in the current game, not by referencing the past game, not by relying on somewhat-forced tells, on things that were contextually-dependent and don't apply elsewhere.
Skip forward to here and now. Where talah? Does

exactly

the thing he said he wouldn't be doing.

The thing is you're a fuckload better at explaining yourself than you give yourself credit for.

Note that here I'm not refusing to explain or saying I can't explain. I'm

slacking off

on explaining.

You laid down reads with little reasoning (which you seem to have run with unless it's been a hallmark) but they were inherently explicable. You were open and offered to explain.

Trends that I have shown this game

.

You can lay down reads and I can have an affinity with them. We didn't talk a hell of a lot in the hydra QT, but it didn't matter, like at all. We looked at very similar things being scumtells, or scum indicators.

(Why talah's reads being out of synch with mine sets off red flags. I laid the foundation. Talah didn't pick up on it, he flat-out rejected it.)

So when you entered this game I expected to *understand where you were coming from* and I just didn't this game.

And this is me, this game, with talah.

My response?

You're actually hitting on the same notes that the players that successfully read me do. I don't think you've quite got the grasp on it yet (meaning in future games, it'll be possible you'll misread me), but I think you're actually really, really close to it (meaning in future games, it won't be PROBABLE you'll misread me ).
I'd be interested in testing that out a bit. See if you can join the ranks of the holy-few-who-never-misread-me. Of which, there are basically only a handful. (Less, actually. AP/zMuffinman are again the only two that I recall off the top of my head, though I do think there are others.)

Random players thinking I'm scum, not raising my eyebrow.

talah

saying I'm scum,

especially

given our history? Heck yes, when I see that, I'm going to instantly know that something's off.

@mastin - I have no desire to "work with" scum-you.

This?
This is a scumclaim from talah. This is talah, last game, scumreading me.

It's probably a bad idea to lynch mastin Day 1 on the off chance that she's town. So will be keeping an eye on.
UNVOTE: mastin

The scumread is laid out with a vote, fleshed out in follow-through, and in the post I'm quoting, summarizes...but shows why he's not going to pursue lynching me.

(And again, for emphasis: My town and scum entrances are vastly different, but this was my town entrance. A big ping is the difference in reads, because if he were town I'd expect to understand him almost immediately as I have.

He's not tried to connect with me; he's not tried to

get

a read on me

, he just said I was scum and then next post voted me. More than that, I've explained my thinking, yet he's brushed it aside. I made the statements...

and then I backed them up

. I've shown to the best of my ability EXACTLY where I am coming from on this, which is exactly the thing that talah said I can do as town but haven't been doing as scum. To put it bluntly, it's not an entrance I'd expect of talah's personality.)

That not enough? Then have this one. (Emphasized parts have been emphasized to show the critical heart of talah's thoughts towards me as a player.)

So I feel like at least we have an amiable connection to the point where

if mastin's town,

I'd like to work with her

, and I'd think that she'd be far more cautious and wanting to determine my alignment rather than just dropping a vote on me and then telling me I know virtually nothing about her.

So anyway, that's it. I feel like I'm getting overinvested in this line of thinking and it's clouding my judgement so

I'm just going to note my scumread on mastin

and keep sorting through other reads.

THIS. IS. TALAH. AS. TOWN. SCUMREADING. ME. YET. BEING. WILLING. TO. WORK. WITH. ME. On the off chance I am town.

Compare to this game. Where talah flat-out refuses to engage me.
REFUSES.

This is scum talah. I was really, really hoping it wasn't. But it is.
Talah as town flat-out said he thinks of me as something of a mentor.
Talah as town flat-out said that he was willing to not only not lynch me, but to work with me on the chance I was town because he values my input that much.
This talah flat-out said he was refusing.

You seem to be shoving a burden of proficiency argument at me.

DAMN STRAIGHT.
One that

YOU

created.

The thing is you're a fuckload better at explaining yourself than you give yourself credit for. You laid down reads with little reasoning (which you seem to have run with unless it's been a hallmark) but they were inherently explicable. You were open and offered to explain. So I asked about Kalimar, put myself on the line and said what I thought first, and you agreed and added your own take on it. After you got dayvigged I had that as a tenet of you-town. The ability to explain when pressed.

I laid my reads down with little reasoning, but

have been open and offered to explain

.
Where has your questioning of the reads been?
Where has you asking what I was seeing been?
It hasn't been there at all.

You're not looking for the things you look for in reading my alignment. You're not pressing me.
You're just marking me off as being scum.
And leaving it at just that.

That goes against literally everything.

EVERYTHING

. That I know of a town-talah. (Not to mention violating just about every article I've written for town which you have familiarity with if nothing else.)
You're not only getting the read wrong, but not going about forming (or updating) the read in a town manner.

Do I need to remind you that my initial scum lean was all about *Anti* and not you? How does scumleaning your slot make me scum?

Really now?

And had a 'one raised eyebrow' read on mastin primarily for not understanding/agreeing with the early reads, then Anti clarified that they're a hydra. So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

This was just Anti? No, it was both of us. More than that, as the same slot, if you scumread the Antihero half, it requires you to have a scumread on my half. And if you have a scumread on my half? Town-you goes about trying to make sure of it, and if sure of it, will note it but not push it.

But you?

Let me quote the important bit from that post for emphasis.

So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

DEFAULTING TO SCUMREAD. Until there's reason not to. That is not how a town-talah thinks. A town-talah, like a town-Mastin, holds hope for the inner townness in players, and is vastly disappointed when presented with strong evidence to the contrary...yet will still work with that chance, anyway, just in case. Instead of having me as town until presented with strong evidence of me being scum...you default to scum and are only going to change it with reason to. I'm not sure this is coming across clearly, but I'm right, and you dang-well know it.

And it seems reeeeallly fucking strange to me that despite this being pretty apparent, Anti hasn't addressed me once.

Actually, he did. You weren't the only person to say trying-too-hard. He ranted about it a fair deal in our QT. (Him getting accused of trying too hard is, shall we say, not a new accusation.)

Why are you representing something that I said in NY 172 as your own words?

I'm not.

The fact that it's your words is

my whole point

.

You're still not trying to engage with me or get a read on me.

EXCEPT I BLATANTLY DID. I even made a reach-out. Asked why you weren't working with me.

YOU said you weren't going to.

You flat-out said you weren't going to work with me, try to hash things out.
WHEN THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS FOR US TO GET READS ON EACH OTHER. You said it yourself, that's how you got a townread on me in Gundam--by working with me, by seeing my reads, and listening to their explanation, you were able to get a townread on me there.

You've done nothing like that this game.

You're just trying to sell me as scum to town.

And this! This goes against how you see me as scum, too. As scum, selling a town player as scum to the town is something I rarely if ever do. Not self-meta;

those are your words

. (Well, paraphrased, I suppose.) That as scum, I am opaque and don't let people in, and as town am a much better narrator than I claim when I'm scum. This game?

I'm narrating

, giving my orating.

And your argument is 'talah should be townreading me or giving me a free pass Day 1'.

Not exactly, but more or less?

YES!

I'm town this game. You fancy yourself able to read me. So you

should

be townreading me. That you aren't sets off

big freakin' red flags

.

But let's say.
Let's say you aren't as good at reading me as I've thought you to be.

Past experience has shown you to be willing to give the benefit of the doubt

. This game, you've given none.

Pretty fucking rich considering you readily admitted you'd pretty much forgotten who I was until I called you scum in 172.

Yes.

And I made sure not to forget you since then.

I play with so many players that I do occasionally forget.
But when a player leaves an impression on me I can't forget (which is normally my scumgames since my scumgames are more memorable in general than my towngames), I make sure to never let that player leave my mind.

And you haven't. I cited a fair amount of these things from memory. And then, when people didn't take my word on it, I tracked down the sources

and showed the conversations proving it

. You're not even saying I'm wrong about how you think, because I'm right about it and you dang-well

know

I am. Instead, you make this deflection from the whole point.

Who's the one saying "you know

nothing

about me" this game, talah? Because that's what you're claiming, right here.

Anyway I'm just going to underline in bright red pen Necro=Scum and go find the others. At this stage I'm thinking Rach, possibly SSK, ZZZX, and *maybeee* Starflower depending on Sakura's input. Nati and Pere I have zero clue. Saki's absent which I think is actually slightly townleaning. Anyway.

Quite coincidental that you say this, because I was just going to get to that.

You've shared no thoughts on others.
No thoughts on other players you've had suspicion on.
No thoughts on reasons why.
No explanations.
No reasoning.

Just blank empty reads, shown like this.

Where's the walls of text or the spamposting explaining it?
Where's the detailed descriptions where you show exactly where you are coming from and what you are seeing?
Where's the attempt to get players to understand your reads?
Where's the attempt to

gather

reads, for that matter?

Every aspect of your towngame is absent.

At this stage I'm thinking Rach, possibly SSK, ZZZX, and *maybeee* Starflower depending on Sakura's input. Nati and Pere I have zero clue. Saki's absent which I think is actually slightly townleaning. Anyway.

posturing aside, the other reads are hilariously bad

This, too.
The best read there is Nati and even that one is not sure-fire.

That was pretty much the angle "ZOMG NO SCUMHUNTING" that you(scum), AP(scum), and Rogers(town) pushed on me in 172 as well.

Only on the surface level, and with vastly different circumstances. In that game? That game, I

said

you weren't scumhunting...but you

were

. In that game, I claimed you weren't being genuine, but your posts were ridiculously genuine. (Here, there's no emotion behind them. There, there was plenty.) I claimed you were being reactionary, when you were being proactive. Here, though. Here, you really. Really. HAVEN'T BEEN.
Like I can pull up examples of the accusations I made, and contemporary posts of yours that show it to be false and actually the opposite.

Not so here.

Because there? There, I was scum faking my town self in a decently-convincing manner hitting all the right literal points but failing in every general sense in that I was on the ropes. Here? It's the real thing. And now, you're the one trying (and doing a decent job) to hit all the literal points but failing literally every single general check you possibly could.

Regarding not giving you a free pass in *this game*, I recently finished an alt-game with Nacho where I had him in my scumleans and gave him a free pass and he went on into lylo.

Also not my point. (Well, part of my point, but y'know what I mean.) There's a difference between giving a free pass and

refusing to consider the alternative

. You can still press the idea of me being scum...but to do so and ignore everything I bring up? Ignore my content, ignore my posting, blindly assume I am scum until the end of days?

No.

That's not a town-talah. Never. Never ever.

Oh and you should probably explain what me-scum has to gain by calling you-town, scum.

A lynch on quite frankly two of the most competent town players in the game? Anti's ridiculously good at scumhunting when town. I'm not quite as good, but I've been progressively feeling more and more in my stride. My towngame is getting more accurate with each and every town game I'm playing in. In particular, if my suspicions this game are remotely correct, then having me dead early-on prevents me from refining them and from convincing players.

Ironically enough, you yourself gave the perfect reason scum would want to get rid of me early-on. Just you described the dayvig, rather than doing so via lynch. (Even though the result--the person pushing for my death--should be the same, in that it makes them obvscum, well, it took days before Titus was lynched in Gundam.)

Actually if you'd survived a day or two I think it would have been really easy for you to have obvtowned with that posting style+openness - obviously scum thought you'd already got there.

I'm sure as heck open as can be, and bluntly obvtown. Lynching me? Would be a scum field day.

Alright. How 'bout this: activity.

Hi Deas! You town this time?

VOTE: mastin2

Hi mastin!

Your entrance to this game is not genuine.

*yawn*

Actually I know more folks playing here than I realised, so -general hello- and down to business.

@Mister, not genuine

how

?

I am talah! Are you town?

Yuppers, sure am.

Well this is good news! Perhaps if mastin is town too we shall be an unstoppable scumhunting force.
Or the first three nightkills ><

O_o

That's even more scumtastic.

1) Have you ever played with DV before in a game?
2) Please explain how "knowing more people" relates to your actions upon entering this game.

Obfuscation is now added to the lack of sincerity.

Very good. I see you have totally ignored my question "Ingenuine

how

?", and added obfuscation, and changed ingenuine to insincere. If you could be a bit more clear in your thoughts it will help me to develop a read on you.

1) Considering your 2) it's strange that you ask this. Because you are saying that having played with people is not game related, or is insincere, or ingenuine (actually I don't know what you're specifically saying because you never clarified just what it was that you found not genuine, but rather steamrolled on with an 'obfuscation' accusation), and here you are asking me to provide *more* information which you apparently find scummy.

The answer is Yes: I've played with Deas (who I think is fun), and mastin (who I see somewhat as a mentor), and Pere, and Smudger, and Nero Cain, and one other player under an undisclosed alt. I also know RachMarie as she modded my first game.
So I'm conversant with several

personalities

in this game, and I think that will aid me in getting reads on players.

2) Probably answered in the above unless you have something more specific or clear to ask.


UNVOTE: mastin
VOTE: Doc

- Answer my question about what you found ingenuine

- I think I just realised what the fuck you're talking about regarding "MOAR" people, and the reason I mentioned it was that I actually said "Hi!" To Deas, then Pere posted and I hadn't noticed he was in the playerlist (and then spotted a couple others)

- I'm sheeping Deas to get a more solid read on him, and I think his vote on Doc was legit

- I'm also aware of shitting up the thread when only a handful of folks have posted so far, so here's a hint and an adieu: I'm town and you're barking up the wrong tree if you are too.

I got major suspicion on Deas during RVS last time we played together. I wasn't burned at all.

Dunno how you form reads, but I tend to like to interact in different ways with people and assess whether I think their responses are genuine or not, and whether they make sense and are consistent with the gamestate.

Anyway, carry on.

Ffs, can you let me get back to cleaning my house for my rental inspection on Tuesday? I'll take any other interrogation on notice for the next 24 hours, kay?

Deas is a dude unless I have alzheimers. Mobile Suit Gundam SEED in large themes topic.

I think Deas voting Doc for (Doc) making a vote which was "fuck that guy", deserved pressure because it was a bad vote, but mainly I like the fact that he (Deas) latched onto it and naked voted because I think that he (Deas) tends to get over-explanatory as scum, dotting i's and crossing t's where town probably wouldn't. So I liked it fine and given my mastin vote was pure RVS and reaction-fishing, and mastin hasn't posted, switched quite happily to simultaneously get a better read on Deas, and find out what Doc was about.

No results yet because I'm being hijacked by you. Nevertheless I'm noting the Pere/Admiral interaction. Dunno what to think about bjc or Doc yet, maybe slight scum on Doc. You I'll abstain on for now.

Taleh, is this DV dotting i's and crossing t's?

I really dislike that first sentence and that question about why someone would ask for a link to a game odd.

It seems more like commentary/observation to me, and having had to specify so early one of the major things I'd look for in scumreading Deas virtually invalidates it. I do have a few other things I'd be keeping an eye out for but for now I'm not concerned and happy to lean town.

Bjc already looks like he is going to be a lynch bait here .

Talah is bad all over . He has one decent post explaining his decisions otherwise he has been bad all over .

So if I've had a bunch of 'bad' posts and one 'decent' post what's your opinion? Was the 'decent' post enough to invalidate all of the 'bad' posts, or are you weighing my alignment only numerically on your opinion of what posts are 'bad' or 'decent'?

Also I left the bjc thing in because lynchbait can only be town, right? So you're townreading bjc? Why?

Talah 1) Called for allies 2) Blindly sheeped those allies 3) Reacted badly to a case being made. For early day one, that's a slam dunk case that I'm not going to "wait and see" on.

1)

What allies did I call for? Was it:

a)

Deas and mastin, suggesting if we're all town we might join forces, in the extremely early (as in, I-couldn't-possibly-have-a-read early) response garnering comment I made?
or,

b)

The entire roster of people I have previously interacted with in the playerlist?

2)

Who were the other

allies

that I was *also* sheeping?
I'll tell you right now that I've sheeped

scumreads

before, because I think it's a useful way to find out if there's conviction and validity behind a case, and to see of others join a wagon and why.

3)

What case did I react badly to? The case being made about me? Which I know to be bullshit? Do tell me how I was supposed to react in your eyes to a super-early overblown case which was 'ur post ain genuwin son', or if you're referring to something else, please clarify.

You appear to be twisting words to exaggerate the validity of your vote, and I might add that your entrance was pretty much what you appear to be accusing me of, in that you sheep Mister and appear to buddy up to him by implicitly agreeing with everything he's said and adding the 'coalition' statement.

Borked quote tags in my post 87, should be this.

Talah 1) Called for allies 2) Blindly sheeped those allies 3) Reacted badly to a case being made. For early day one, that's a slam dunk case that I'm not going to "wait and see" on.

Oh god, mastin rolled scum and it looks like multifaction.

mastin - why did you delete the spacing in the quote of mine you posted? I actually responded to Mister, addressed everyone else I'd played with generally, then asked Mister a question (which is apparent in the fact that I, well, readdressed him with the @ symbol). Removing the spacing makes it look like the entire thing was in response to the quote, which it wasn't.

Secondly why are my and Mister's interactions town vs scum? Do you think I fooled Mister to the point where he's no longer voting me - meaning he's town and his push was good but he's wrong?

Lastly I'll post as much as I like thank you very much. Less than 4 pages a day on day 1 is *nothing* compared to recent larges and I know you know that just from the fact that you were in FE:A and Gundam. So this proposal just seems like a way to squash free conversation and possibly give yourself a reason to complain about excessive activity if you decide to lurk.

Secondly why are my and Mister's interactions town vs scum? Do you think I fooled Mister to the point where he's no longer voting me - meaning he's town and his push was good but he's wrong?

Yeah, you're scum. This line of thought simply doesn't come from a town player. Town player? "Why do you think Rogers is town? Why do you think I'm scum?" Scum player? "Why do you think our interactions are town vs. scum?" (Making an assumption that interactions have anything to do with the read. They might contribute to the overall picture, but are largely irrelevant.) "...Also, he unvoted me; surely that makes him either scum or wrong." (That's essentially what talah's saying, here.)

mastin I *knew* that I could get a good read on you based on your entrance. Your town and scum entrances are

vastly

different even though you don't seem aware of the differences.

A big ping was immediately differing reads. I don't think you put down more than two or three insta-reads which you actually have any meat behind. In the last game we played together where we hydra'd, I understood your reads *immediately*. I expected you to enter the thread with either slight disdain for my aggression or a hearty 'hullo' and you've done neither. You've not tried to connect with me; not tried to *get* a read on me - you've simply said I'm scum and voted me.

(Which is super interesting considering you've just voted someone else even though you think I'm

definitely

scum).

Are you interested in why I think it's multi-scum based on your one post? Because I have a clear though process on that, too.

Talah was a scumread for much of the reasoning Rogers presented, though my own wording is slightly different--basically, there's nothing genuine about talah's posting; it's hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty. He's playing a highly-reactionary game rather than a proactive one, and overall, he feels like he's not scumhunting; he feels like he's trying to get a feeling for how to manipulate players.

Let me address this first: "Hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty."

Your words. Can you point out instances of this, or are you happy to simply to cast a huge aspersion on my character without explaining your own thinking?

Secondly - how are you asserting that *I* think that it's town vs scum when I clearly implied that I am tending to think that Mister and I is town versus town?

I'm oh so happy to spend the time requoting myself and yourself in context if you disagree that that was my indication.

Disappointed that you're scum this game

VOTE: mastin2

Your entry reads this game are utter shit. Unless you're prepared to back them up where a direct question is asked, they're inauthentic.

This much I know is true.

I also know that I have played precisely *one* scumgame which I'm happy to link if you're not aware of it, and that you've played *many*, written articles, talked about scum agendas. I know you a bit better than you think, especially after Time: The Distortion.

Why didn't you *try* to form a read on me? Are you basing your read one one post and butthurt because I called you scum from your entrance? Is that a mastin reason to have a scumread?

If I'm scum fo' sho' - why not get me lynched so you can be vindicated obvtown? Contrary to what you're presenting, you're an excellent orator, so it should be no problem for you to iterate specifics in my "case". You only have trouble explaining gut reads initially as town. You very rarely let time pass where your scumreads are gut if someone asks you *why*, in my experience. This personal distancing is troubling to me.

Ed: ^@mastin

So this proposal just seems like a way to squash free conversation and possibly give yourself a reason to complain about excessive activity if you decide to lurk.

Why do you think this could potentially happen?

Why do I think what could happen?

Agree with your tentative scumreads except for Admiral at this stage. Also surprised Smudger hasn't turned up yet. Rach leans Town. I'll give a lovely reads-spam in the next day or two.

What are your thoughts on mastin so far? I'm not asking you to pick a side, just interested.

I'll be back in about 36 hours (maybe sooner if I can get some quality forum time at work).

Covering off what I recall as some questions raised/comments I thought to make:
- Rach your couple of posts felt genuine, so gut at this stage.
- mastin would be fine defending against a meta argument with meta, however, what I'm saying is that I spotted two triggers for me - a bad-looking opening readslist and an entrance which was something I didn't expect from what I know of her personality. That coupled with a pretty opportunistic vote on me hit me in the face like a sledgehammer.
- I'm going to have to have a think about my multi-scum assumption, but it was a bit ego-related and I can explain better where I'm at with it in a bit.
- Zdenek, from your perspective don't you think it's a reasonable assumption that if a person votes you and says on the very next line that the person attacking you is town, that they're assuming an argument is town vs scum? Couple that with the fact that for a supposed 'reaction vote' on me - I was the player who'd already come under the most scrutiny up to that point. So mastin's happy to townread, say, aptil on the basis of one very shonky post, but needs to reaction-test me when I'm the player who already has the most in-thread content to read from?
- aptil, underwhelmed by your response. Can you tell me what it is that's making you townread bjc on the basis of him saying "I'm scum" please.

Anyway, I don't think there's any reason for the Doc wagon to die, and regardless it's probably a bad idea to lynch mastin Day 1 on the off chance that she's town. So will be keeping an eye on.

UNVOTE: mastin
VOTE: Doc

If I'm scum fo' sho' - why not get me lynched so you can be vindicated obvtown? Contrary to what you're presenting, you're an excellent orator, so it should be no problem for you to iterate specifics in my "case". You only have trouble explaining gut reads initially as town. You very rarely let time pass where your scumreads are gut if someone asks you *why*, in my experience.

This

personal distancing

is troubling to me.

Can someone, anyone, please explain what the bolded re the underlined actually means; I am having trouble getting the exact point and I feel its important.

Should really be me that explains myself shouldn't it? (I'm reading along, I just really don't have time to post much until tomorrow evening.)

The last game I played was with mastin, in a hydra. It was a small game, but between us we communicated fairly amiably and sparsely and managed to pretty much align reads and identify the scumteam with pretty decent accuracy. The last two large games I'd played before that (including Gundam SEED) had mastin in them. In Gundam particularly, mastin was dayvigged by scum on Day 1 and I spent much of the remainder of the day trying to scream down a lynch on the vig. mastin *ranted* in the dead thread about how he liked my play and that people should be listening to me.

So I feel like at least we have an amiable connection to the point where if mastin's town, I'd like to work with her, and I'd think that she'd be far more cautious and wanting to determine my alignment rather than just dropping a vote on me and then telling me I know virtually nothing about her.

So anyway, that's it. I feel like I'm getting overinvested in this line of thinking and it's clouding my judgement so I'm just going to note my scumread on mastin and keep sorting through other reads.

Edit: Mister, I'm not tackling mastin on a meta argument because I'm not an expert on mastin-meta and frankly don't have the time to take it to ffery/cabd-like levels which would be the only level I'd actually be comfortable saying 'well, this is statistically significant'. That's not my issue, and the post you quoted is not something I can argue with because

I don't know

. My issue is

what *I* know of mastin

, and the difference here in this game. And as mentioned just above I feel like I want to *not* get involved in a shitfight about it when I could be spending time thinking about players' motivations.

See all of this? This is what talah produced, as town, in the span of only a few days.
Note the post numbers.
He was active in the RVS.
He was giddy, even.
He contributed actively, and gave good content. Even in the RVS. Posting a ton of good stuff.

He's posted less this game in its entirety than he did there in such a short period of time.

Hello, catboi.

VOTE: Scumfuck

-t

Subject: Micro 285 - Time: The Distortion (Town Win)

I'm here! Even though it's six bloody a.m.

So Scumfuck, are you two going to be imitooting each other exarctly?

-t

Heh, I haven't really caught up with mastin, we have a handful of 'hai there' posts in our hydra QT and that's about it. I've decided to sign my posts because I'm embracing the hydra experience.

Subject: Micro 285 - Time: The Distortion (Town Win)

And naturally in the same post I say that, I forget to sign. Nice.

-t

Just the first page/day.

Subject: Micro 285 - Time: The Distortion (Town Win)

Unofficial Votecount 1.0(a)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MAJIFFY

Scumfuck (1) - Lucky2u
DOMO (2) - catboi, Messiah Complex (L-2)
catboi (1) - DOMO
Lucky2u (1) - Adaptive Heap

Not voting (2) - Scumfuck, masky
7 alive, 4 to lynch.

Day 1 begins now and ends on Tuesday, Jan 21st at 8:00 PM Eastern Time

(expired on 2014-01-21 20:00:00)

-t

Subject: Micro 285 - Time: The Distortion (Town Win)

Briefly regarding mastin's reads - seems we didn't need to sync at all.
I had Lucky down as questionable because the main effect of voting Scumfuck was to create a (second) L-2 wagon, but the content given in that post was pure RVS. The tone of the post seemed a bit exaggerated to me as well (as did DOMO's entrance, actually).

Messiah's initial vote obviously had some humour behind it. Scumfuck-ffery-head I know to not be a fan of RVS so no vote is nothing unusual - it might take me a bit more time to firm up a townread here but certainly feeling 'human'. catboi was the first poster (enthusiasm) and I thought we'd have good times voting down the list in sequence (which means, actually, that Messiah broke the pattern ^_-)

Hum, so yeah no masky yet - looking forward to that grand entrance!

-t

And so on. active out of the gates.
Immediately.
And continuously.

Getting lazy, but Same thing in this game. Admittedly, he's a bit slower, but the content's still there and still strong.
Similar in Gundam Seed: not quite as active, but ridiculously active overall. Active posting. Lots of content. Solid posting.


Let's take a look at games I'm not in. This one, same thing. Active immediately; you can tell on just the first page.
Here, replaced in and was active immediately throughout the whole game.

That's talah as town.
This talah? This talah is...not like that at all.
That help?

One thing about not seeing talah as scum is that there's not much OF talah to be seen. And I think that's alignment-indicative.

(This is the only time I ever call talah's slot lurking...but not a lurker.)

It's not just meta.

One thing about not seeing talah as scum is that there's not much OF talah to be seen. And I think that's alignment-indicative.

It's something which is slightly suspicious by itself that meta just so happens to enhance.

Dude that's shit cuz Talah's been super inactive like the last three months.

talah's been plenty active. (I'm not sure of the legality in linking to talah's posting history. But not really needed to tell.)

Mastin can talk to herself for the rest of Day 1.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand, we get more dissonance, in that talah's expecting to not get me lynched while voting me, yet is refusing to discuss with me, to talk to me. It shows a disconnect, in that a town-talah voting me is either voting me to lynch me (in which case,

talah should be making a case

...yet is flat-out refusing), or voting me to interact with me (in which case...

talah should be talking to me

...yet

is flat-out refusing

).

Talah's vote is just there. Which shows...that talah doesn't really think I'm scum. He's just placing it there to have it be placed there. Which again clashes with the whole "not interacting with me". A town-talah if he truly thought he had caught wind of scuMastin?

Would drive that lynch into the ground

, as he did in 172. Maybe not with the same amount of reckless ~passion~, maybe with enough reserve as to realize when to stop talking, maybe not nearly as strongly as in 172. But talah this game

hasn't pushed AT ALL

. There's a difference between being overly invested in a push and holding absolutely none in it. The former is more likely to come from town no matter how anti-town it may be. The latter typically only comes from town when they're waffling...which talah claims he is not.

All of this from just the current game. All of this without going into talah's meta and realizing that this simply isn't his town approach.

Additionally,

hey talah
you actually going to do something else or is taht part of the bluster too?

Is valid, in that even if talah doesn't want to interact with us...he's done nothing to interact with others, either. No push. No strength. No scumhunting. talah's a frighteningly-good analyzer. And he's a fairly strong orator himself, able to show his thoughts fairly clearly. I knew where he was coming from in 172 not instantly, but fairly quickly, and was able to see that clearly. (Admittedly, was scum, but that's one of the reasons talah wasn't townread; had I been town, I would have.) He's done none of that.

So this game is giving me the shits right now so I'm going to lurk for a bit.

Hey! talah! Stop stealing my style!
Being a cheeky-ass scumbag is

my

thing, dammit!

(There are town ways to declare you're going to lurk.
There are scum ways to declare you are going to lurk.
This is the latter. It's not something I think I can easily explain, but basically, it's word choice and tonality. In that a town player lurking generally does so because they're feeling a bit lost, or for the sake of a gambit. Basically, they either don't know what to do so do nothing, or can't do anything because they're waiting for something. Yet when needing to declare the lurking, the latter is basically nullified if you say you're going to lurk so talah can't be gambitting, and when it comes to the former, a town player generally expresses their feelings, rather than bluntly saying they're going to lurk.
...Also, dissonance, in that having us as a strong scumread goes against the waffling-town-lurk.)

Also, the case on talah is dumb and I still want the anti/mastin hydra dead for many reasons.

you're still unengaged scum and i know it

^A very good summary of why talah is scum.

@tala case:
i don't think comparing activity in micros and activity in larges make for good meta cases

MASSIVELY understates what's in the talah case. talah being TALAH (meta) is basically only the icing on the cake of the scumread. If this were my first game with talah, I'd be making many of the same points against him. Me actually having a fairly-intimate knowledge of talah simply serves to augment the already-solidly-strong case.

At this stage I'm thinking Rach, possibly SSK, ZZZX, and *maybeee* Starflower depending on Sakura's input. Nati and Pere I have zero clue. Saki's absent which I think is actually slightly townleaning. Anyway.

I like Sakura's query.
I don't like that Nati might be stalking me (heheh)
Fear I figured would be posting more (at least the emogirl head who I briefly read something about in the scummies thread I think), so half an eye on them but not particularly worried right now
Marquis' hydra seems pretty easygoing so far
VOTE: SSK
For ignoring my question.

Though there is obviously some overlap, there is some

extreme

lack of follow-through on most of these players.

I'm scumreading mastin particularly more since the shit-splosion she's tried to pull off because there's a lot of content there now where she's applying her own standards to me (and vice-versa) and at least logically that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I'm applying YOUR standards to you. Which just so happen to be my standards. Because know who it was that pointed it out that ours were basically identical? You.

You were in 172 as well. I don't see how you'd expect me to be doing anything except what I do.

In the 2.5% chance you are town, the very fact that Zdenek was in 172 as well and agrees with my points should tell you something about your play here, talah. (Also, you're treating Zdenek as town but I don't remember you having stated a read on him. For that matter, have you stated a townread on basically anyone? I don't recall any.)

Anyway I'm just going to go ahead and claim that I have a PR.

Oh, fully believe you.
Just think it's a scum one.

(It's a scum power role, by the way.)

What the fuck, talah?? Why claim on Day 1 -- is it because you're trying to get pressure off of you? Good luck with that, because you jumped out of the metaphorical oven and into a cauldron of "haha no".
[caled]

I fully agree, talah's basically scumclaimed.

mmm, I have no idea how to take this. Either alignment could do it.

The ACTION, yes. The WAY, no.
First answer as to why, meta. This is talah as town dropping a PR claim randomly. It served a point, had purpose, he used it as a weapon, and it was actually productive. Stupid, maybe a little bit, but logical and made sense. Whereas this game, it was just placed out there and has none.

Second answer as to why, again, kinda hard to describe, but basically...town players weaponize their PR claims. Scum players use PR claims as a defense. (Fitting the overall mechanics of town players being proactive and scum players reactive, btw.) A town player claiming a PR does so in order to pursue a cause; a scum player claims a PR in order to shut a cause down. And talah's was the latter. It served no purpose. It gained no ground. Least of all given the circumstances; even in the hypothetical scenario where talah is town, what kind of scum would kill talah with him being so suspected in spite of his claim? Maybe if he's lucky he'd get a block or redirect spent on him, but even then, it'd rely on scum being dumb (if talah doesn't have a PR affected) or incompetent (if talah does, gets a result, and actually wins a 1v1; I can tell you flat-out right here and now that if I was scum and if talah was town and talah claimed a guilty on us, we'd win hands-down, because we certainly are NOT incompetent).
In other words, the claim makes zero sense from a town perspective.

Why the fuck not? If I contrast it with you voting your own maybe-townread it seems pretty decent on reflection, doesn't it?

not really
you really think a flashwagon on peregrine or SKOT's going to happen and you really think those are the best lynches? why?

Hello opportunistic vote. I've been rolling your play over in my mind, and I don't like it. Apparently you would like to philosophise instead of actually trying to find scum. And talk about how you're finding scum.

'opportunistic'? that doesn't really fit considering the situation....

[snip]

oh hey
so, the cattish tone and the lurker pushes are awesome and all, but who's

scum

?

Anti-posts, but still applies.

And then there was the way that talah replaced out. It was incredibly reminiscent of his last scumgame, the one where zMuffinman replaced him.

+POE,
+other stuff.

I seem to recall saying quite literally to just fucking iso me searching for talah.

This is only the talah half. And I can sum it up even now as thus.

(For the record, this is basically a 97.5% scumread. It's one of the few. The rarest of the rare. Where a player I hold fundamental trust in shows themselves to be scum. To the point where even if I lost, I'd almost be willing to enter into a 1v1, if not for that slither of a doubt, that tiny morsel of hope that I am wrong and that they are town that I somehow have seriously misread. There's only one or two other possible players for me to have this feeling for, Nacho and SSK, thanks to our histories.

That

strong.)

talah as town produces an insane amount of content, good posting with a good town. talah this game has produced significantly less content in significantly more time, and what little content he has is focused on me.

And even then, fuck, I've probably missed a ton more.

(Yes. This is only HALF. Because it's only talah, and not jon.)

[The Necromancers]

Oh, fuck. Broken tags.

Mod:

Please delete the "spoiler=" tag of "have some more" and "brief look at talah activity". That should fix the post.

Fixed. I think.

[The Necromancers]

If ZZZK is town then who is scum?

talah/jon.
Fear/Titus.
Spring Starflower.
Jordan_Downey.
Xayzeck.

Take your fucking pick. (Preferably Titus or Spring, as they have wagons on them.)

So what read do you have on Thor and on me then?

Ex-townreads.

Pending re-evaluation.

Townreads pre-ZX, null-need-to-reread post-ZX-votes. (Dead fucking serious about the scumdrivenness of that wagon.)

[The Necromancers]

guys, just let me take care of Mastin tonight

Any vig targeting us.

Is going to be directly fucking answerable for a town loss if players don't sheep our reads. (a-la PV's-vig-of-Rancid-being-most-proscum-vig-possible.)

(Rach is back to being a townread.)

[The Necromancers]

VOTE: Spring Starflower.

We can probably make this happen.

[The Necromancers]

Maybe, or maybe scum could have seen him going down in flames and bussed for cred.

This line of logic.
In my entire game history.
In every game I've so much as read. (Which is over 200 by now.)
Has only happened once.
ONCE.

When the scum had daytalk, and mcqueen, their VI goon, was being a VI...and did things against the wishes of the scumteam, ignoring their input, ignoring their plans, to do his own thing, and claimed the scum's only PR as his own, as a goon. (I was said scum PR.) As you can tell by the number of qualifiers, that scenario is incredibly fucking rare. ZX is not that kind of player. You're basically saying that Mastin's scumbuddies saw she was going down in flames and bussed for cred.

We all know how THAT worked out. (Hint: Mastin got lynched...and flipped town.)

No.
Just fucking no.

Scum are not fucking happy-go-lucky bussing ZX.
Scum are fucking pushing the mislynch of a town ZX. I've been in ZX's position. I know what he's going through.
And he is just about as fucking town as a town player could possibly fucking be.

That isn't just scum pushing a wagon, that is scum wetting their pants in terror - and I see no reason for them to be doing that even if you have called them out, because no one is particularly buying what you're selling as shown by the votes (and, also, you're almost invariably wrong on at least 1-2 even if you are being scary accurate).

Unless both counterwagons to ZX (Titus and Spring Starflower, outside chance of jon) are scum.
If town is getting mislynched, and scum are the alternative lynch candidates, know what scum do?
Make sure their damnedest that it's the town player who gets fucking mislynched.

Also, also - serious question here - do you honestly believe he had some sort of weird computer glitch wherein he lost some recent document saves and nothing else?

Yes. Maybe the files weren't saved yet he thought they were. Maybe they got corrupted. There are ways these things happen...and they are

not

things you lie about. Least of all, someone like ZX.

anti
if your slot is not scum
please knock some sense into mastin
thanks

Also scumposting, in trying to form a wedge between the hydra heads.

So in other news; Xayz is falling back into that habit again :watches:

(Thus, why Xayzeck is scum.)

Holy AtE batman...

(One of the reasons jon is scum.)

Both jon and Titus are Ate'ing Skoat

(Thus why Titus is scum.)

[The Necromancers]

On a more serious note, though, Mastinhero has been ignoring me while I have been here, and I figured voting one of their town-reads would grab their attention regardless of what they think of my alignment.

Oh, you GOT my attention, alright. In just about the worst way possible. The Malakittens read was so meh that I didn't really bother responding to it because you gave me nothing worth responding to.

Your ZX vote, however, is fucking trash. Period. And dead serious. There's no action you could have taken to damage your towncred except that. You could have voted me. You could have voted Dry-fit. You could have voted literally any other player, and I wouldn't bat an eye. But ZX, dead fucking serious, is a toxic wagon so fucking toxic that it HAS damaged yours.

If I were to do a readslist at this moment, both you and Marquis would be bumped down a couple notches for it.

[The Necromancers]

Micro 350 ended a while back so I can bring this up now.
When I saw both of these I just went "haah"

ZX posted that in literally every fucking game he was in.

a) I don't see what you're getting at. If you're saying the people voting him are all scummy, therefore he can't be scum, that's only because you think they're scummy.

Which is simpler?
You're wrong on the read of the wagoned being scum,
Or you're wrong on the reads of the entire composition of the wagon being sketchy?
Nine times out of ten, I'm going with the former, assuming the wagoned is more likely town than scum, and that my other reads are more accurate.
(But that's irrelevant, since I think ZX is town off of his play and actions

anyway

; circumstances behind his wagon, which the above basically is describing, merely augment this.)

This whole post was bad, but I'm lacking the words to describe it and am mostly in defend-the-FUCK-out-of-ZX mode right now.

Fuckit you're spring's buddy anyways, I'm done trying to get you to vote him.

Trufax.

[The Necromancers]

@Thor-

Which player have you labelled as scum but successfully not voted today?
Hint:

You have developed the counterwagon to this same player.

This plus PV's compiled VCs are why PV is probably my strongest townread right now.

That is a case I can sheep until I read through the thread and verify. My vote on Doublade is the best but no one is voting it and I've spent more than half the day. Time to start collasping the wagons.
VOTE: ZZZX

:scumvoting:

Bleh. It's not naked. It could use more and I will be reviewing. Your response is not townie though. You act as if my vote is static when there is another plausible wagon. Saying someone's logic is not naked. So why are you so scared of a vote that may be temporary?

Not townposting even remotely. This is looking for evidence to fit the read, rather than vice-versa. The exact wording is also not saying ZX is scum, just not-town, which is a tonality difference Titus does. Furthermore, the main wagon as of her post right then was herself, with Spring being the other.

BUT THE BIGGIE.
Is that she's not fucking bothering to take a look AT said alternative wagon Spring.
Why not?

Because he's her fucking scumbuddy.

And she gave no inclination the vote was temporary--quite the opposite, her posting made it look like she wanted to solidify the fucking wagon, which was beginning to fall apart. (See above for proof. Read that and tell me where there's so much of a hint of her thinking that she'll be moving off. Instead, it's explicitly saying she's voting to get the wagon reignited.)

Right now, I think my votes on scum. So I feel like it'll be giving me dividends while I'm gone.

This is jon saying he knows his vote on us is worthless, but he's parking it there so that he can switch at the opportune moment when need be.

[The Necromancers]

@Thor-

It could possibly be just a bunch of stuff.
Hard pushes on Titus + Titus scummy behavior, yet all cases are weaker than this:

You also triggered me to look at your iso - you promised full reads list yesterday and said the list was basically ready to go...are you still working on that?

Vote: ZZZX

Including your own feeling, which was so strong to move Titus from not-scum to scum (2059).
So, a feeling strong enough to move a player from null/town to scum, but somehow weaker than 1994.
Seems like a strange path to take.

Oh, and this. This was a valid point.
The wagon on ZX is ridiculously weak reasons-wise because it is shallow, superficial, and just about as fucking scumdriven as a wagon can be. ZX is the Mastin of this game, we're the Rancid of this game.

[The Necromancers]

**** this.
Everyone runing a freaking meaningless wagon on me. I feel ashamed of how town isnt freaking seeing this. Springflower is OBV scum and titus is playing shitty with his naked vote making him appear more scum. At everyone asking about the TBC. Do I have time to make a read when i am freaking trying not to get lynched?
**** this again

Vote: ZZZX

Finish this and put me out of my misery. Anyone who played a freaking damn game should know this is my playstyle. Yet I played with half the people on my wagon and they are "Ok with a ZZZX lynch" as a ****ing case... REALLY?
Actually I dont even care anymore. lynch me and I am not defending myself any more. Deaf people are gona stay deaf no matter how freaking hard I screamed,.

And this. This was just about as fucking town as you can get. That frustration. That not understanding the reasoning on the wagon. That feeling that it is crap. That feeling that you're being asked to do things made impossible by the pressure on you, which provides a "justification" to make more pressure that only makes it worse and makes you less rational than your already-irrational mind is. That barely-restrained attempt to remain civil when you're raging. That desire to die, JUST so that you can fucking laugh.

Laugh

at those who seriously thought you were scum, as an ultimate "you couldn't have been more fucking wrong about me". The strong knowledge in this being how you always play, and wanting to use this game to goad people into realizing it, so that you can hold it over their heads for all of time. That having given up on caring. That becoming spiteful. That realization. And also a hint of lucidity in the hurricane of negative emotions overwhelming you.

This is no scum player. No scum AtE gambit.
This is a town player speaking from their heart.

[The Necromancers]

Oh.

Did I mention?

Scum player being hardcore-defended by a player?
Buys the fucking defense. They say to listen to said player. They say that player is town 100%. If ZX were scum, he would be buddying me hardcore.

Town player being hardcore-defended by a player?
Become immensely-paranoid of scum-WKing-them. Analyzes the defense, and ultimately forms their own opinion. In this case, ZX has said that they think we're town--but it's only a lean. Not a steadfast read. It's what he's thinking, not something he's sure of.

You really can't get any more fucking town than that.

[The Necromancers]

VOTE: Spring Starflower.
We

can probably

WILL

make this happen.

Fixed.

[The Necromancers]

PeregrineV
Malakittens
ZZZX

MafiaSSK
Dry-fit
Saki
TiphaineDeath
Shiny Hydreigon
Doublade
Sharpest-knife-on-tree
Zdenek
Perpetual Nonsense
RachMarie
Thor665

Xayzeck
Jordan_Downey
Spring Starflower
Titus
Jon_h61

Approximate current readslist.