Open 560: Tit for Tat (Game Over, 4/12 alive)

[Julatorium]

But by posting what you did you reveal an absolute lack of concern at anyone else in town being shot. That isn't working with the vig to select a good target. It is trying to guarantee your personal survival.

This. This is our major problem with what she is doing. We also think she is scum. We debated calling it out but if she is town then scum knows exactly what she is doing.

[Justin Playfair]

don't confirm your vig target to anyone, and don't eliminate anyone from your viglist. chose your vig targets,and keep your choices close to the vest.

This is faulty reasoning. The vig's kill tonight will go through whether scum target it or not. And assuming xfd is alive in the morning he will likely be targeted for a lynch unless he can confirm his claim by having called out and followed through on a target tonight. While there is every reason not to claim vig except under extreme duress there is no reason, with no scum protective role currently in play, not to call out a target.

The only countervailing logic would be that if xfd does not call out a target the scum might not target him in hopes of making him tomorrow's lynch, but to me that seems more likely to be a scum motivated argument.

[Moonlight]

This isn't the first time someone doesn't want to get vigged. Let me refresh some minds.

I feel it's worth saying you should vig HGH tonight.

Do not fucking vig me because I was pushing you.

What was Julatorium's reaction to that?

@TSO - have you read HGH's one other game on site? I get the impression he doesn't know how to play mafia at all. I think this is also a weak player and he needs to be replaced, not lynched.

Mod: please replace HGH

Not a word regarding that matter.

Also xdfag pick a diff vig target than me if the insanity lynch goes through. Confirm to me that you won't vig me. >_>

What's their reaction when Mala does it?

Mala is doing one of three things, none of them are good
1) she is a town PR trying not to get vigged. This is dumb because scum are likely smart enough to figure that out.
2) she is scum preparing to fake claim
3) she is town vanilla trying to draw the nightkill by crumbling jail keeper. This is a little better but still bad cause if a real jail keeper were worried about getting vigged they would just jail the vig.

So, we would prefer you stop beating around the bush and just claim.

A claim suggestion.

Double standards for the win.

[Moonlight]

And as much as I want such an annoying amount of bias to mean something, I think I know better. I'm just not surprised anymore that they're failing to read me. >_>

I almost want them to vote me now, that would make me smile.

[Julatorium]

Do you have a fucking argument to make that we are scummy or are you just nitpicking what we say because you are butt hurt that we think you are scummy? Don't pussy foot around it. Cause all you are doing right now is pointing shit out that doesn't matter. Making a passing comment like "oh God don't shoot me because I voted you" and explicitly stating that someone must confirm that they will not shoot them are completely different things.

Justin, the vig should NOT out their target because if they choose a townie then the scum will leave the vig alone. If they claim scum then they will shoot the vig. Plus, the jail keeper may or may not protect/block the vig tonight.

[Julatorium]

So you are saying that you are wasting everyone's time then. noted.

[Moonlight]

The argument is there, but it might be too subtle for you. It's an argument against your competency, not anything related to your alignment.

So no, I don't think you're scummy, just bad.

[Julatorium]

Please don't fucking do this. I just went round and round with another player who called me bad. Do you know what he called me bad for? Speculating about who made a night kill which ended up being true. This is not a route you want to take with me. I'm going to ask that you leave it at that.

[Maruchan]

If\when the JK dies then he can keep his reads close to his chest and until then no because scum have no way of stopping the kills from the vig.

uh yeah, killing him

[Maruchan]

don't confirm your vig target to anyone, and don't eliminate anyone from your viglist. chose your vig targets,and keep your choices close to the vest.

This is faulty reasoning. The vig's kill tonight will go through whether scum target it or not. And assuming xfd is alive in the morning he will likely be targeted for a lynch unless he can confirm his claim by having called out and followed through on a target tonight. While there is every reason not to claim vig except under extreme duress there is no reason, with no scum protective role currently in play, not to call out a target.

The only countervailing logic would be that if xfd does not call out a target the scum might not target him in hopes of making him tomorrow's lynch, but to me that seems more likely to be a scum motivated argument.

No, if xfd doesn't die tonight, then he won't be lynched. Why? Because if he is not vig, vig needs to kill him. If he is vig, and maf kill him, maf will kill him. if he is vig and maf DON'T kill him, then hey, he is living vig, why the fuck do you lynch him?


Calling out a target is bad, because then if the target is a mafia member, you can be damned sure the maf will kill him that night. If he keeps it close to the vest, the maf have to wifom the fuck out of themselves to risk letting the vig live into day two and further, and we might get multiple vig shots.




Under no circumstances should we at all consider lynching xfd tomorrow, I mean, seriously. How dumb of logic is that? In fact because of your last line, You just jumped to the scum side of my reads. There is no town reason to lynch an un-cc'd vig claim on day two, if he didn't die by the real fig night one. I'd in fact say the vig is gamethrowing if xfd is not the vig and is alive tomorrow with two deaths.

[Justin Playfair]

Maruchan, the real vig, if it is not xfd, could be in jail tonight. Someone will be. Calling the kill also eliminates the chance that the vig might choose the target placed in jail by the JK. Since logic argues pretty heavily that, if xfd is our vig, we will only have one night of the vig's services, it would be a shame to have the vig and jk neutralize each other.

[Maruchan]

And then we only have one death, not two, and we know. If there are two deaths, and xfd isn't dead, we don't lynch him. If he is, we leave him alive till a night there are two deaths. You don't lynch an un-cc'd vig, irregardless. You let the real vig take care of him, or you assume he is real.

[Maruchan]

Also justin towntold, but I won't disclose how. Because reasons.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

This town.is going full retard. I'll explain later I'm tired

[Krystal Bald]

Vote: insanity.

Because it's better than me getting lynched.
Also, keep in mind that xfda is probably scum who will autohammer anyone townie who is put at L-1. Do not put anyone at L-1 unless we're ready to end the day.

[T S O]

Hi TSO. I'd never deny that I'm an idiot but I'd love it if you could tell me why you think I'd be an idiot specifically for wanting to lynch Mala.

Mala is town as shit - I know you haven't seen it, but I would stake my life on it.

[Maruchan]

Hi TSO. I'd never deny that I'm an idiot but I'd love it if you could tell me why you think I'd be an idiot specifically for wanting to lynch Mala.

Mala is town as shit - I know you haven't seen it, but I would stake my life on it.

quoting for reference in end-game

[T S O]

Sure.

Why are you voting insanity over KB again?

[Maruchan]

im voting kb

[T S O]

bah!

Why are you voting KB over insanity again?

[Maruchan]

i don't have a read on insanity and don't see the inherent scummyness others do, and KB is on my scumlist.

[Krystal Bald]

/catching up

-mantis

[Krystal Bald]

Btw, I wasnt really paying attention to that thing (pregame nonsense), so I had to go RV. But oh well.
And, I wonder if Scum can

take control of Day as well. They'd talk about who to lynch secretly,

then they go on together. But I dont think its true, cuz people will obvs call that scum. Anyway, wake's post didnt sound really nice. Dont understand it.

The bold is a townslip. What do you mean exactly by it not sounding nice?

and are you trying to get town cred for this? n_m

[Krystal Bald]

Its that its nonsense. Grammar errors, bla bla bla. And I was talking about Wake.

Im glad we didnt start with RVS, cuz Scum can take that RVS.

^i think town

[Krystal Bald]

Spoiler:

1) To address the TSO post, we can talk about the "spirit of the game" nature of that play post-game.

Well, you can talk about it postgame, I guess - I have no intention of apologising for trolling, and although you seem to think it's outside "the spirit of the game"... I don't.

Wasn't looking for an apology, nor a discussion to prompt one. We've stated that it's a null-tell. It's your nature, so we can't use it to read you.

...what?

You said it required post-game discussion, I said it didn't, you said you weren't looking for a discussion?

What are you even doing?

Our quote wasn't about the content, or your vindication, it was about your nature. This is where you like to wallow. Therefore it can't be used.

Your quote should have been about the content. I enjoy, however, the fact that you are a rank hypocrite. You complain about the levels where the troll named TSO lurks, then post a link to a discussion which you now admit had no relevance other to ...slander my name? Your attempts to take the high moral ground makes me laugh.

We also don't agree with the statement from KB that TSO's demeanor changed at all, or that a perceived change even matters, because he had his role when he made the accusation. It would be different if he didn't have his role, made this play pre-roles, and acted different once the game started. Trolls be trolling.

Wow, lots of words, but no read at all! Trolling =/= scum.

That's right, and the statement is one regarding KB's views, not yours. Your reaction seems disproportionate to us. I thought you had some measure of pride in your trolling efforts?

Not particularly - I've never sold myself as a troll. You're the one who's pushing that I do.

2) Flavor response

Our daughter is going to 3rd grade ACE classes next year, and the kids will have to vote on what subjects they are taught. This is a laughable exercise, because the choices are going to be like... Dinosaurs and Mythical Creatures, or Art and Music appreciation. The classes are inevitably chosen by how many boys and girls are in the class that year.

That said, We dissonantly

choose A

based on rock paper scissors (good ol' rock!).

Yes, yes, you're very smart.

She is. We're proud parents.

Um, no. I never mentioned your daughter. You were the one who was flaunting how you feel the question is useless, before defeating the only purpose you could have for doing that by then participating in the question anyway.

Do you think that scum normally do nothing?

Do you think that the more you do, the less likely scum you are?

Do you think scum frame questions so as to avoid the area where they perceive themselves to be vulnerable? I do. And the heart of what Krystal seemed to be trying to get at (Krystal, please correct me if I'm wrong) was the much milder tone you adopted as soon as the game began, as opposed to your previous more caustic behavior. Now I'm pretty old school but I do like inconsistent behavior within the same game as a possible indication that someone is scum.

My behaviour was inconsistent, yes, because that more "caustic tone" is not my usual. I adopted it solely for people who did and still do get on my nerves (shoutout to you, Julian!). It would be both unenjoyable for me and you if I were to continue to use it. You can simply use my meta to evidence the fact I'm generally a nice guy. I have mean-guy scumgames and towngames. I also have nice-guy scumgames and towngames.

I was bored and decided to have some fun. It wasn't a reaction test, but it works better to say it's a reaction test than flat-out trolling. How would I reaction test people on something that's impossible?

Sure, it could be that. It could also be taking an opportunity to throw chaff into the air in an attempt to skew accurate reads on your behavior. That's the sort of thing good scum might do.

Am I good scum, though? Because if I'm bad scum, this argument falls to pieces.

And TSO? Thank you for this post. I feel like I know you so much better now.

You're welcome - it was enjoyable to show Julatorium why he was wrong. It still is.

But, let's be honest for a second here and I'll cut my condescending bullshit. Julatorium is either a prick, an idiot, or scum. He brought in a topic about verbal abuse, where I was the only example cited, and I was cited from only one game, where I was scum. He saw the quotes of me on the first damn page. Then he comes back, knowing that I can be aggressive and nasty as scum, knowing I'm being aggressive and nasty here, and what does he fucking do? Calls it a null tell! Where's the paranoia? That should set off the alarm bells in his head, because he knows I'm playing to relatively recent scum meta. But he doesn't. If he used that as a Town player should, in an attempt to figure out my alignment, he should be proclaiming wariness of me. He's not. He's probably scum.

You don't take motivation into account, and so your analysis is only surface-deep. Thus, people can easily fool you.

you are wrong with that, speaking on nik's behalf >:I

I disagree - motivation is the key to everything. Words are wind. Everything has a reason, everything is connected.

I would enjoy hearing how Nik scumhunts and pointing out how motivation could a) improve his method or b) factors in his method.

Town.

agree... >.>