Newbie 1515: Old-Timey Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Flames682]

LOL?!? I was completely pro-town on your slot and you vote me. Interesting. Seems to me as you thought there was an old wagon on me, and you just wanted to try and get Flames vote back on to me. I don't like that. Vote on me was random, his vote on you was random. This vote...isn't random.

VOTE: ashura525

Like I said I just join this one recently and don't have any idea what's going on in early game. so I just pick a random person to vote.

That's why there's something called reading...

[ashura525]

LOL?!? I was completely pro-town on your slot and you vote me. Interesting. Seems to me as you thought there was an old wagon on me, and you just wanted to try and get Flames vote back on to me. I don't like that. Vote on me was random, his vote on you was random. This vote...isn't random.

VOTE: ashura525

Like I said I just join this one recently and don't have any idea what's going on in early game. so I just pick a random person to vote.

That's why there's something called reading...

Clearly my bad, since I'm too lazy to do that. But still no change on my vote.

[Jake from State Farm]

Heading to the beach and won't be back til Saturday. I still expect to check in daily but just in case I get busy.

v/la til the 5th

[Jake from State Farm]

If Thesp mentions those questions again instead of actually playing the game I'm urging everyone to vote him.

First as the IC, he's supposed to actually teach players the game. Explain what rvs & rqs and al that jazz. Most ICs do some sort of opening post that explains stuff about the game so right off the bat your IC isn't setting a good example.

Secondly, contrary to his opinion, most experienced players will probably tell you rvs is better than rqs. I'm basing that off the fact I've never seen an experienced player ever start a game with RQS not have I ever seen the people who use rqs actually learn anything.

Thesp will tel you it's useful but his first time doing it, he lead a lynch on a town PR and scum had a perfect victory. The thing is no 2 scum will do what you expect them to do so you can't rely on bs questions like he asked.

I would NEVER lynch someone cause how they answered those questions and I would never allow anyone to be lynched based off their answers. So they are pointless when it comes to scum hunting. Yet another thing out IC is failing to do. He's failing to teach people how to scumhunt.

So again I say that as long as he's hung up on those questions, he's not trying to find scum. He's not teaching players how to play.

So here I declare a mutiny. I'm now your IC of the game.

Here's my beginning blurb.

Sup


Since most people don't like long posts I will put everything in spoiler tags

As the IC of the game I will do my best to follow the guidelines on how to be a good IC. As an IC I am not allowed to lie to you about mafia theory. Feel free to read the information contained in the spoilers as I feel it's useful.

Spoiler:

- The Mafiascum Wiki page can be found here. Lots of good info for beginners can be found even though some of it may be out of date. Feel Free to ask questions.

- You will see words tossed around and may not understand what some of them mean. Feel free to ask but most of them can be found here and you will also see abbreviations being used in games and the meaning of those can be found here


Here are my little tips to live by, you don't have to listen to them but I feel they are handy.

1. Do not ever lie as town. Claiming to be a power role when you are not or being a power role and lying about an investigation are heavily frowned upon on this site.

2. Please do not lurk, Lurking is when you purposefully don't post in a game, do your best to be active and post something useful every 24 to 48 hours, more if you are able to. If you know you are going to be away or not able to post often, please be courteous and alert the mod and the players by declaring a v/la. That essentially means Vacation or Limited Access. It lets us know that you have a reason you aren't posting.

3. Please do not replace out of the game. replacements happen all the time for numerous reasons, but if you can avoid replacing out that is ideal. Replacements in my opinion make the game harder to figure out and less enjoyable to play. If you are struggling to figure things out, just ask for help.

4. Remember this is just a game, the goal is to have fun and do your best. Try not to get personal and try not to take things personally.


If you are a complete newbie and have never played the game of mafia before and are not sure what you are supposed to do, speak up and I will do my best to help you. There are plenty of articles posted on site that I can link which try to teach you how to play the game plus I can provide my own advice.

Good luck and Game on!!!

vote: Thesp

I've got to find the game but somebody pointed out that a useless IC or SE is actually a slight scumtell and nobody's been more useless than our IC so who's with me on the mutiny?

Vote Thesp for confirmed scum.


Oh and here's another great price of advice.

Here is a helpful piece of advice that I don't expect most ICs to tell people but it's something I try to do in each and every game I play


After every lynch/NK, you should always try and re-evaluate your reads. You should re-read posts of the dead and compare their notes to your own. Still trust your gut but often times re-reading things can bring new perspective that you didn't already have.

[TheGottemer]

vote: thesp
V/la until further notice

[Flames682]

VOTE: Thesp

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery is worrying me as he has voted for me. This could be simple paranoia.

Are you feeling the same away about honey bee?

LOL?!? I was completely pro-town on your slot and you vote me. Interesting. Seems to me as you thought there was an old wagon on me, and you just wanted to try and get Flames vote back on to me. I don't like that. Vote on me was random, his vote on you was random. This vote...isn't random.

VOTE: ashura525

Tutut not even playing attention to the gamestate.
VOTE: Boonskiies

[Thesp]

I'm at a bit of a loss for how to start here. Jake from State Farm has been incorrect on some points, and outright untruthful in others. It's one thing to disagree about how useful questions are to start the game, but it's another to outright lie about them. At the risk of this post being obscenely long, I want to hit a couple of points here.

1. Starting the game with questions rather than arbitrary votes isn't as uncommon as Jake from State Farm would have you believe.

I can provide more games where this happens (and will a bit later), but I got the idea from the creator of this site who used it in at least one game that caught my eye. In any case, he's trying to take a playstyle difference and use it as if it's somehow a scumtell. I'm also perturbed by his strong reaction against answering questions that are meaningless. (Why not just answer them, if they don't do anything, and move along to what you feel will be productive?)

2. This quote from Jake from State Farm below is an outright lie.

Thesp will tel you it's useful but his first time doing it, he lead a lynch on a town PR and scum had a perfect victory.

The game he's referring to is Newbie 1498, where I opened with a series of questions. Jake from State Farm would have you believe that scum's perfect victory in that game came at my hands. Instead, I'll note that I was nightkilled Night 1, specifically because scum thought I was "scary good" and "already got a little bit of a bead on [one of the scum]".

Beyond that, though,

this isn't close to my first game starting out with questions rather than meaningless votes

. I've done it here as well:
Micro 311
Mini 1553
Newbie 1042
Newbie 890
Mini 905
Mini 900
Newbie 792
(I stopped looking after I got this far back, I likely have more.)

In fact, my distaste for what is commonly referred to as the "Random Voting Stage" of the game has a clear history, as noted here and here and here and here and here (where others also note that RVS isn't useful) and here. I can likely find more examples if you like, but I hope you get my point. Last game wasn't the first time I've done it, and it has a long, storied history of being used (and being used effectively) to begin games. I'm in no way suggesting that scum out themselves in initial questions. But arbitrarily voting, then arbitrarily voting other people based on

those

arbitrary votes, has never struck me as productive. Instead, I've been able to read people better the more I know about them, and asking people questions has been the

best

way to start that process with a bunch of people I've never met, rather than expecting them to volunteer information.

3. Jake from State Farm has lied about

his

questions about my approach to starting games.

Early on, he said:

Damn I missed your last newbie game where you did that. I stil want to know why you start games like that. I don't understand the point

However, I opened the game he's referring to with a detailed explanation as to why I asked the questions to open the game. (I probably should have done so in this game as well, but was pressed for time when the game opened, as I had guests in town.)

If he saw that I opened the last game with questions, then he saw

why

I open the game with questions.

When he asked again:

It's pointless. Which is why I asked you why you started asking the questions.

Can you answer my question?

I responded by quoting the post explanatory post that gives a pretty clear reason why I ask such questions rather than arbitrarily voting. He then responds that it "still doesn't answer my question" and begins being abusive rather than productive.

4. Jake from State Farm has been doing nothing to scumhunt outside of attacking me.

He has used our playstyle difference as an excuse to provide otherwise empty content, and has been asking players to post, but hasn't been doing anything to get them to say anything substantive. He's done things like complain about a lack of activity:

Hopefully activity picks up across the board on Monday, it's kind of abysmal right now

...but doesn't actually do anything to promote activity. That's the hallmark of trying to look busy while not accomplishing anything. It's crazy scummy and bad for the game.

That's why my vote is on Jake from State Farm. I'm very, very happy with my vote there.

---

At this point, everyone should be doing

something

with their votes.

Either make a best guess and put it where you think it belongs, or unvote and ask questions to find out where you think your vote should go. There are things in this game to consider at this point. Jake from State Farm has his mutiny thing against me. I've pretty clearly laid out my thoughts. TheGottemer and Flames682 simply voted me after Jake from State Farm's post, without further statement. (Why, TheGottemer and Flames682?) Maybe there's someone who hasn't posted much ("lurking") who you think needs to be called out. Whatever it is, here's your chance to

do

something.

[Jake from State Farm]

1. I didn't answer them cause they are pointless and I did move on to do something productive. That would be to inquire as to why you would rather drag the game to a halt rather than start scum hunting.

2. That quote wasn't a lie cause A. You did lead the lynch on a town PR and B. Scum had a perfect victory. Saying I'm lying is actually a lie.

3. Didn't lie here either. I honestly didn't read the entire post in they game. I was just skimming your newbie games for questions.

4. Ok hold up. I'm doing nothing to scumhunt outside attacking you... Could it be I was attacking you cues I thought you were scum? That would mean I was actually scumhunting... What scum hunting were you doing? Oh wait none. My refusal to answer your questions doesn't mean I'm scum and if you even attempt to lie to people and say it is I will report you post game and make sure you never IC again.

5. I agree people should go something productive with their vote. That productiveness should be lynching obv scum Thesp

[Thesp]

2. That quote wasn't a lie cause A. You did lead the lynch on a town PR and B. Scum had a perfect victory. Saying I'm lying is actually a lie.

3. Didn't lie here either. I honestly didn't read the entire post in they game. I was just skimming your newbie games for questions.

It was nowhere near my first game to start with questions. If you were skimming my newbie games for questions, you would have seen

every game I've been in that I started

was started that way. And in the specific game you cited (Newbie 1498),

the questions you have been posting about were in the post with the explanation

.

[Jake from State Farm]

Newbie 1402 you didn't ask questions to everyone. That's a boldface lie

I'll concede that newbie 890 I didn't look past your first post and I didn't go past page 1 so I didn't see newbie 792

And I don't know how many more times I have to say this. I was only looking for questions and didn't read the entire post where you gave your reasons. Though there is a point to asking a person to give their reasons again. Just like when I ask people to give their reasons for their scum reads again. I'm sorry you don't understand how to catch people in lies by changing their story, but I often ask people to restate things. Much like police ask people to tell their story over and over again.

[Thesp]

Newbie 1402 you didn't ask questions to everyone. That's a boldface lie

I'll concede that newbie 890 I didn't look past your first post and I didn't go past page 1 so I didn't see newbie 792

And I don't know how many more times I have to say this. I was only looking for questions and didn't read the entire post where you gave your reasons. Though there is a point to asking a person to give their reasons again. Just like when I ask people to give their reasons for their scum reads again. I'm sorry you don't understand how to catch people in lies by changing their story, but I often ask people to restate things. Much like police ask people to tell their story over and over again.

I opened Newbie 1042 with questions rather than votes. How am I lying there?

I don't know how you could skim Newbie 1498, see that I had questions, and not know why I ask questions. And I'll quote the post from Newbie 1498 where you discovered that I open games with votes, which I also quoted earlier, that you repeatedly stated didn't answer your question:

Hello, everyone! I'm you're friendly IC for this game. I'm happy to answer any question you may have about the mechanics of the game, or anything else that might come up.

The beginning of the game can be a bit haphazard. After all, there's no information other than your own role PMs at the moment. Frequently, people will begin with early rounds of arbitrary voting, commonly referred to as the Random Voting Stage. However, I think that's a waste of time. We can go ahead and start posting useful content right out of the gate. After all, one of the best ways to get information from people is by asking them questions. (This will be even more useful in the game as it goes on. If you think there's not enough information on someone, usually the

best

way to get that information will be by being proactive and asking for that information yourself.)

So, I'd like to start this game out with a question to each of you. Generally when I do these, I try to ask a question that I think will be more uncomfortable for scum to answer, or that I think may color their play, or tell me more about how they are likely to play. There can be reasonable skepticism over its overall usefulness, but I do think it is significantly better than arbitrary votes, and it helps me get started.

I'd like every player to answer these two questions:
How often have you played Mafia (or it's alternately-themed version Werewolf) before?
What do you think is the best way for a player to help the town?

Thanks!

I'd like to hear some opinions from some other players, as I doubt I'm going to convince Jake from State Farm that he's scum.

[TheGottemer]

I am quite confused by this conversation and don't know what to say about it. Therefore,
I am going to just leave my vote where it is for now and may end up changing it.

[Jake from State Farm]

Mini 1042 you asked 1 person a question , not everyone. I don't consider that similar.

You aren't going to convince anyone I'm scum cause 1. I'm not scum 2. I'm making more sense then anyone in the game 3. You look desperate hanging onto your shitty vote on me for not answering your questions and for questing your motives for asking them.

Not answering your questions isn't a scumtell. In fact the scum in that last game not only answered them, they answered them with detail. Just admit that you hate RVS and these questions have no bearing on anyone's alignment. If you can't do that then you really have no voice that anyone should listen to. The questions are BS and a time waster.

[Jake from State Farm]

I am quite confused by this conversation and don't know what to say about it. Therefore,
I am going to just leave my vote where it is for now and may end up changing it.

If you are town this is bad play. If you are confused ask questions. Sitting back doing nothing is the worst thing you can do as town

[Flames682]

V/LA til further notice

[Jake from State Farm]

Is " further notice" 2 or 3 days or is it like a week or more?

[BoroPhil]

mutinies?

VOTE: jake

[Jake from State Farm]

I don't even care about this game anymore. Some pansy had to not only whine to the game mod about cursing, they took it to the list mod. Well lookie lookie , I'm still here. You can't get rid of me that easy.

Now whoever it was, grow a pair please. I've had way worse things said to me and nobody got punished , saying the F word is like nothing. I hear teenagers say worse things.

Vote stays on Thesp, still havent seen anything that resembles scum hunting from him. Granted nobody else is doing any either and that's a big problem.

[Honey bee]

I really don't understand this argument here. Whether or not RQS is a viable option for starting a game really has nothing to do with anyone's alignment. Neither is refusing to answer the questions (which is more like a tell of personality). Either way, arguing about RQS has been extremely unhelpful to anyone.

All the lying accusations feel really weak.. People forget, people don't read, it's natural. Lying to me is only scummy when it comes to interpreting reads or PR information of the current game.

And just so you know, I don't like meta arguments. Maybe you all feel differently, and that's fine. If you want to convince me of anything, try a different way.

That's all I'm going to say on theses subjects. Anyways..

I'm not really being hesistant, I'm just suffering from typical D1 apathy.

Can someone start a fight with someone?

Basically the first page was full of a whole series of rubbish reasoning. Also fluff. Lots of fluff. Scum love fluff.

Cheery is worrying me as he has voted for me. This could be simple paranoia.

First off, Borophil, you realize that the first page was RVS, right? If you really thought "rubbish reasoning and fluff" was scummy, why not just vote someone and make some progress.

Why did you ignore Cheery dog's question? You need to explain what that last comment meant. Also why are you voting jake? Because they want to be IC?

I am quite confused by this conversation and don't know what to say about it. Therefore,
I am going to just leave my vote where it is for now and may end up changing it.

If you don't understand what they're talking about, you didn't understand the case in the first place, and were just bandwagoning.
VOTE: TheGottemer
TheGottemer, Can you tell us your thinking about the game at the moment?

Jake, do you still believe is TheGottemer is scummy? I think you changed your mind.. so I want to know why.

Thesp, can you give us your current reads at the moment? If you have made reads on anyone else, I must have missed it.

Boonskies, what makes ashura voting you scummier than joining any other wagon? I mean there was plenty of other wagons to join at that time.

[Thesp]

Just admit that you hate RVS and these questions have no bearing on anyone's alignment. If you can't do that then you really have no voice that anyone should listen to. The questions are BS and a time waster.

Since you specifically asked for comment on this I will, but I expect this to be the last thing I say about my habit of asking questions to begin the game. I'm not suggesting that the questions give away people's alignments right away. I

am

suggesting that they help me get to know players better, and that knowing players better helps me figure out who scum are. I still don't understand why that's such a controversial opinion.

My vote on you isn't for not answering questions. My vote is for reasons stated before - I think

you

are using it as an excuse to provide vacuous posting - to look active without actually contributing.

---

I'm more than a little disturbed at multiple people who posted votes with little to no content following. (This applies specifically to The Gottemer, Flames682, and BoroPhil.)

---

TheGottemer, Can you tell us your thinking about the game at the moment?

Jake, do you still believe is TheGottemer is scummy? I think you changed your mind.. so I want to know why.

Thesp, can you give us your current reads at the moment? If you have made reads on anyone else, I must have missed it.

Boonskies, what makes ashura voting you scummier than joining any other wagon? I mean there was plenty of other wagons to join at that time.

These are good questions, and I also want to see them answered.

As to the question for me: I'm a bit confused by this gamestate. There's plenty actually happening right now, and there are lots of people posting but simultaneously checking out. The TheGottemer/Flames682 votes are the ones that interest me the most. Both post votes on me with no reason stated, and immediately post V/LA "until further notice". I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it. I doubt scum would act together like this. TheGottemer comes off as genuinely confused/lazy townie here, and Flames682 as riding his coattails.

My vote is staying on Jake from State Farm because his approach is just so anti-town I can't convince myself a pro-town player would act that way (though I've been trying to convince myself of it). I'd be happy to see some pressure on Flames682 as well, and I'd be happy to swing my vote that way to secure a lynch.

I'm still forming opinions on others at this juncture. I think you're more likely to be pro-town. I'm liking

ashura525, who are your two best picks for scum right now?

Flames682, how old are you? You can give a range if you'd rather not be specific.

Echoing that I'd like to hear an answer for Honey bee's question to Boonskies.

More thoughts expected later today. I will have family in town this evening through Saturday, so after today I may not be as active and available as I'd like until Sunday. Thanks.

[TheGottemer]

Ok, time for the truth. My last post was just to avoid another prod. This one is for real.
I think that the current play is becoming too personal. That is, people are attacking each other personally rather than just trying to win. *cough* jake *cough*. I do confess to bandwagoning earlier but now that I am better informed my opinion is that if you have an issue with someone and the way they IC, take it up with them over PM and don't attack them on the thread until this fails.
Again I apologize for my previous transgressions but I also am a little bit awkward. If I am doing something unacceptable don't hesitate to tell me but please be gentle.

[TheGottemer]

And on that note,

vote: Jake From State Farm

[Cheery Dog]

I'd like to hear some opinions from some other players, as I doubt I'm going to convince Jake from State Farm that he's scum.

Sorry your argument is one that I care little for, while I'm not to the stage of skipping the posts entirely (well actually I think I might be, I didn't see this part to respond to earlier in the day), I'm not able to see alignment indicative stuff coming from either of you within an argument over rqs.
I'm not sure of either of your playstyles, (even if I have kind of played with Jake before, and know him to a brash player (but then you don't have to have played with him to know that))
but neither of you feel like you're really generating reactions and it's just going to consume game time with no gains.

[Cheery Dog]

Actually Jake isn't looking at much motivation or stuff that actually effects this game, dammit now I'll have to look deeper into his, eh it can wait until the morning

I do confess to bandwagoning earlier but now that I am better informed my opinion is that if you have an issue with someone and the way they IC, take it up with them over PM and don't attack them on the thread until this fails.

As this would be out of thread communication, it's not actually allowed. (therefore it should be done via yelling at the mod over pm, and postgame/deadqt)