Newbie 1515: Old-Timey Mafia [GAME OVER]


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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:15 pm

Post by Thesp »

In post 149, Jake from State Farm wrote:The fact I got to L-1 and you were declaring somebody hammer me without a single valid reason really frightens me if you are town. It's probably the most reckless play I have ever seen all because i hurt your feelings. It's bad enough you report my posts to the game mod AND the site mods (obviously I'm assuming it was you because I don't see why anyone else would), but to try and use that to basically policy lynch me is ridiculous. There is literally no scum intent in any of my posts , there aren't even any scummy tones in my posts. You literally have nothing on me other than your grudge cause I said F you to you.
I don't think we're reading the same game.

(I'm
still
not sure what it is that you want me to respond to. Can you quote or otherwise highlight what you want me to "respond to"? I'm going to bed, so I hope in the morning I'll have an answer to this question.)
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:21 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

Post 109. The fact you aren't reading the game is also very worry some.
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:58 pm

Post by TheGottemer »

Jake from State Farm wrote: TheGotmer had no reason ( outside of he thinks I should have pm'd you my issues which is against the rules.)
Technically if you don't mention the game specifically it's not against the rules. You can just say that he could be doing a better job in general. And I even said that it was just the idea that counts:
In post 110, TheGottemer wrote:
Cheery Dog wrote:Actually Jake isn't looking at much motivation or stuff that actually effects this game, dammit now I'll have to look deeper into his, eh it can wait until the morning
In post 96, TheGottemer wrote:I do confess to bandwagoning earlier but now that I am better informed my opinion is that if you have an issue with someone and the way they IC, take it up with them over PM and don't attack them on the thread until this fails.
As this would be out of thread communication, it's not actually allowed. (therefore it should be done via yelling at the mod over pm, and postgame/deadqt)
Ok, but the concept remains the same. Don't turn a good fun game into one of shooting accusations.
If you have a problem with the way someone ICs, don't try to lynch them with accusations like that. This is seriously becoming too much of a fight rather than a game.
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:57 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

I'm not trying to lynch him cause of how he is ic'ing and if you read my posts you would know that. I've provided really good reasons why I think he's scum.
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:12 am

Post by Boonskiies »

VOTE: Thesp

I had voted for him earlier, and like I said before, my two scum reads have been Jake and Thesp this entire game. The way Jake is playing now makes me think he's town, so I'm going back to my original vote. Because I do believe one of them is scum, but not both.
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:44 am

Post by Jake from State Farm »

@theGotmer, I don't believe I can even vaguely reference the game. I've been warned before cause I was talking about an already completed game but somebody thought I was making a vague reference to an ongoing game. Plus Thesp reported me for cursing, I'm pretty sure he would make sure I got modkilled if I dare contacted him about the way he ic's a game.


But let's forget about that.

What are your current thoughts of the game? Who you suspicious of and why?
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:51 am

Post by Jake from State Farm »

I tried to PM maestro yesterday and he read my PM but still no posts from him in the thread, no updated VC and no update on prods/replacements.

I just sent the Newbie que mod a heads up that our mod may have gone MIA
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:16 am

Post by Thesp »

In post 151, Jake from State Farm wrote:Post 109. The fact you aren't reading the game is also very worry some.
Did...did you actually think I was saying that I wasn't reading this game? I thought it was apparent that I was trying to convey that I didn't think there was any way the comments you were making applied to this game. Perhaps I should have added a "/s" tag.

In any case, I didn't think Post 109 was worth responding to - I thought it was obviously absurd on its face, and I didn't see any questions in it directed to me, and you made it clear you weren't going to be changing your vote off of me (much less commenting on any other player in the game). However, if it will help other players, I'll talk about it.
In post 109, Jake from State Farm wrote:
You then complain about activity instead of doing something meaningful about it
Yet
In post 37, Jake from State Farm wrote:
mod please prod some random boy. He's never posted at all
In post 38, Jake from State Farm wrote:
and TheGottemer, it's been 48 hours since his last post
In post 39, Jake from State Farm wrote:
vote : theGottemer


Logged on earlier today and no posts.

So that accusation from him was a blatant lie.
I said you weren't doing anything meaningful about activity. You respond with how you'd requested the mod to prod players.
This is exactly my point.


You've requested prods from the mod, but you've not asked any questions of the truant players, tried to find out their alignment in any meaningful way, or (in those posts particularly) helped them with any framework for discussing things. As is clear, I've worked on trying to get people talking. You, on the other hand, have made it very apparent that you want people posting, but give them no reason to whatsoever, and have in fact tried to actively shut down discussions because you didn't think they were worthwhile, while simultaneously not giving any guidance for where to go next. This is
exactly
what I would expect scum to do - contribution without content.
The whole game you have epitomized posting without substance. Outside of railing on me, requesting prods, and answering obvious factual information about votes, you have done no scumhunting, no seeking information from players, and certainly no tying yourself to any of them. Your meaningful interaction with players outside of myself is nil. That is exactly how scum want to play this game.


What I posted several pages ago remains true:
In post 82, Thesp wrote:
4. Jake from State Farm has been doing nothing to scumhunt outside of attacking me.

He has used our playstyle difference as an excuse to provide otherwise empty content, and has been asking players to post, but hasn't been doing anything to get them to say anything substantive. He's done things like complain about a lack of activity:
In post 17, Jake from State Farm wrote:Hopefully activity picks up across the board on Monday, it's kind of abysmal right now
...but doesn't actually do anything to promote activity. That's the hallmark of trying to look busy while not accomplishing anything. It's crazy scummy and bad for the game.


You've also said:
In post 138, Jake from State Farm wrote:To answer your question, yes I think that you probnky think this technique is useful. Though based on your past games they haven't been useful.

Since you so it as either alignment though, it's not enough to determine your alignment and so I have to look at your play as a whole.
...and this...
In post 153, Jake from State Farm wrote:I'm not trying to lynch him cause of how he is ic'ing and if you read my posts you would know that. I've provided really good reasons why I think he's scum.
Forgive me if this looks like revisionist history, given this:
In post 64, Jake from State Farm wrote:Or cause I realize that this is you stalling from scum hunting?
In post 78, Jake from State Farm wrote:So again I say that as long as he's hung up on those questions, he's not trying to find scum.
In post 83, Jake from State Farm wrote:That would be to inquire as to why you would rather drag the game to a halt rather than start scum hunting.
In post 93, Jake from State Farm wrote:Vote stays on Thesp, still havent seen anything that resembles scum hunting from him.
In post 104, Jake from State Farm wrote:The fact that Thesp can't see that me trying to get him to stop asking those questions and to start scum hunting as being pro-town behavior to me proves he's not town himself.
In post 107, Jake from State Farm wrote:Thesp is more likely to be scum by trying to stall scum hunting
In post 109, Jake from State Farm wrote:Basically he has no reason to continue this charade because it doesn't actually help him find scum. It does stop people from playing the game because answering those questions isn't playing the game.
In post 130, Jake from State Farm wrote:Since i have already proven that RQS doesn't actually help Thesp find scum better, my original question is still out on the table (now slightly revised)

Why does he stat the game with RQS when 1. it slows the game down more than RVS does and 2. its been proven to NOT be useful in Thesp finding scum.
Look, I understand you don't like me opening the game with questions. You've also said that you believe
I
find the questions helpful in finding scum. You
also
have repeatedly hammered away at me for "not scumhunting", a charge which I disagree with even outside of the opening questions.*
These two positions are mutually exclusive. They are not consistent, and you have been attacking me the entire game based on playstyle difference, rather than trying to scumhunt.

In post 155, Jake from State Farm wrote:Thesp reported me for cursing
When you say things like this, it makes me think you're just not paying attention, or just willfully mischaracterizing me. I was very, very clear that my problems with your behavior were not about cursing.




I remain happy with my vote on Jake from State Farm. I look forward to contributions from our truant players, or their replacements as need be. (I think many of them have pending questions, or at the very least things that have happened in the game which need to be weighed upon. If you're around but not sure what to say, I'll be glad to give you further guidance on what I'm looking to hear about.)

* - Seriously. Go back and look through the meaningful interactions Jake from State Farm has had with players other than me. Then, go back and look through all the meaningful interactions I've had with other players. Then, consider who you think is actively scumhunting outside of each other.
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:17 am

Post by Thesp »

In post 154, Boonskiies wrote:The way Jake is playing now makes me think he's town
What is it about the way he's playing makes you feel like he's town?
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:39 am

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In post 154, Boonskiies wrote:VOTE: Thesp

I had voted for him earlier, and like I said before, my two scum reads have been Jake and Thesp this entire game. The way Jake is playing now makes me think he's town, so I'm going back to my original vote. Because I do believe one of them is scum, but not both.
Do you have independent reasoning on either of them?
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:37 am

Post by Jake from State Farm »

Having the mod prod inactive players is probably the single best effective way to get them to be active, because if they don't respond to a prod they get replaced. Asking people questions when they aren't around to answer them is pretty pointless. It's also pretty pointless to ask people what their preferred alignment is which is why I don't ask pointless questions.

The whole game you have epitomized posting without substance.
1. this isn't entirely true because I have been scum hunting the hell out of you and your posts/actions/and reactions all read scum to me
2. In just about every single game I have ever played, I make posts with substance and posts without substance. I am usually the person with the most posts and it's probably safe to say that a good portion of them will be without substance. So I don't see why you are pointing this out because it certainly isn't alignment related. It's my playstyle so you are going to have to deal with it.
Your meaningful interaction with players outside of myself is nil. That is exactly how scum want to play this game.
:facepalm: 1. This is incorrect because I have interacted with some people. 2. That actually isn't how scum want to play this game, there are much better techniques to utilize than avoiding interaction with people.
What I posted several pages ago remains true:
In post 82, Thesp wrote:
4. Jake from State Farm has been doing nothing to scumhunt outside of attacking me.
actually you just proved what you said several pages ago does not remain true because what you call "attacking" is actually called scum hunting. so thanks for actually proving that I am doing scum hunting and you saying I am not is actually a misrep or a lie (whatever you want to call it, personally I consider it a lie but some may consider it just a misrep)
In post 157, Thesp wrote:Forgive me if this looks like revisionist history, given this:
In post 64, Jake from State Farm wrote:
Or cause I realize that this is you stalling from scum hunting?

In post 78, Jake from State Farm wrote:
So again I say that as long as he's hung up on those questions, he's not trying to find scum.

In post 83, Jake from State Farm wrote:
That would be to inquire as to why you would rather drag the game to a halt rather than start scum hunting.

In post 93, Jake from State Farm wrote:
Vote stays on Thesp, still havent seen anything that resembles scum hunting from him.

In post 104, Jake from State Farm wrote:
The fact that Thesp can't see that me trying to get him to stop asking those questions and to start scum hunting as being pro-town behavior to me proves he's not town himself.

In post 107, Jake from State Farm wrote:
Thesp is more likely to be scum by trying to stall scum hunting

In post 109, Jake from State Farm wrote:
Basically he has no reason to continue this charade because it doesn't actually help him find scum. It does stop people from playing the game because answering those questions isn't playing the game.

In post 130, Jake from State Farm wrote:
Since i have already proven that RQS doesn't actually help Thesp find scum better, my original question is still out on the table (now slightly revised)

Why does he stat the game with RQS when 1. it slows the game down more than RVS does and 2. its been proven to NOT be useful in Thesp finding scum.

Look, I understand you don't like me opening the game with questions. You've also said that you believe I find the questions helpful in finding scum. You also have repeatedly hammered away at me for "not scumhunting", a charge which I disagree with even outside of the opening questions.* These two positions are mutually exclusive. They are not consistent, and you have been attacking me the entire game based on playstyle difference, rather than trying to scumhunt.

You were the one who said yourself that the answers of these questions don't help you determine their alignment did you not?
In post 95, Thesp wrote:I'm not suggesting that the questions give away people's alignments right away. I am suggesting that they help me get to know players better, and that knowing players better helps me figure out who scum are.
1. the questions don't help you determine their alignment so asking them can't possibly be considered scum hunting
2. You THINK these questions help you figure out who scum is, but based on your previous games they don't actually help you at all.

When you say things like this, it makes me think you're just not paying attention, or just willfully mischaracterizing me. I was very, very clear that my problems with your behavior were not about cursing.
but I got warned for the cursing so in mind it's always going to be about the cursing despite what you say...
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:50 am

Post by Thesp »

In post 160, Jake from State Farm wrote:Having the mod prod inactive players is probably the single best effective way to get them to be active, because if they don't respond to a prod they get replaced. Asking people questions when they aren't around to answer them is pretty pointless.
What's stopping you from doing both? Why not engage other players
as well as ask for their prods
, in your newfound mutinied IC status?
In post 160, Jake from State Farm wrote:You were the one who said yourself that the answers of these questions don't help you determine their alignment did you not?
In post 95, Thesp wrote:I'm not suggesting that the questions give away people's alignments right away. I am suggesting that they help me get to know players better, and that knowing players better helps me figure out who scum are.
1. the questions don't help you determine their alignment so asking them can't possibly be considered scum hunting
2. You THINK these questions help you figure out who scum is, but based on your previous games they don't actually help you at all.
That's not what it says at all. I'm saying it
does
help me, but it is not (in and of itself) the sole determiner of scumminess. At this point I don't know if you really don't understand my position, or are simply being willfully ignorant.

I hope it's evident that I entirely disagree with you in the rest of your post as well.
In post 160, Jake from State Farm wrote:
When you say things like this, it makes me think you're just not paying attention, or just willfully mischaracterizing me. I was very, very clear that my problems with your behavior were not about cursing.
but I got warned for the cursing so in mind it's always going to be about the cursing despite what you say...
So the facts don't matter to you, regardless of what I say? I feel like that's a pretty accurate representation of your play in this game.

I'd love to hear from some people other than Jake from State Farm.
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:21 am

Post by Jake from State Farm »

In post 161, Thesp wrote:What's stopping you from doing both? Why not engage other players as well as ask for their prods, in your newfound mutinied IC status?
I mean I was already voting random when I asked for him to be prodded, he ended up getting replaced. I did change my vote to a player who was logging on and not posting which is another way to get people to post, especially if that player is active lurking.

I don't engage in players because that's not my playstyle. My playstyle is find the person I think is scum and lynch them. If people were actually posting more maybe I would respond to some of that but right now nobody is posting anything of significance that needs to be responded to and the only thing I want to do is to convince people they should be voting you, which I have been doing.

That's not what it says at all. I'm saying it does help me, but it is not (in and of itself) the sole determiner of scumminess. At this point I don't know if you really don't understand my position, or are simply being willfully ignorant.

I hope it's evident that I entirely disagree with you in the rest of your post as well.
I am pretty much going to just move on from this one. I don't think what you are doing is useful and i don't consider it scum hunting. regardless what you actually think of it doesn't matter to me. My perception is all that matters and you can't convince me I am wrong just like I can't convince you that you are wrong (btw you are wrong because your past town games prove you aren't successful with these questions)
So the facts don't matter to you, regardless of what I say? I feel like that's a pretty accurate representation of your play in this game.
I am done talking about this also, I am still pissed off that instead of trying to handle things like a man, you had to go and whine to a mod.

When someone insults me in a game I ask them to stop, if they don't then I escalate it. You just skipped doing the right thing and went straight to tattling on me like we are in elementary school. I would tell you how I really feel but that would get me modkilled.
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:35 am

Post by Thesp »

In post 162, Jake from State Farm wrote:
That's not what it says at all. I'm saying it does help me, but it is not (in and of itself) the sole determiner of scumminess. At this point I don't know if you really don't understand my position, or are simply being willfully ignorant.

I hope it's evident that I entirely disagree with you in the rest of your post as well.
I am pretty much going to just move on from this one. I don't think what you are doing is useful and i don't consider it scum hunting. regardless what you actually think of it doesn't matter to me. My perception is all that matters and you can't convince me I am wrong just like I can't convince you that you are wrong (btw you are wrong because your past town games prove you aren't successful with these questions)
But that's the thing - you've stated that
I
think it contributes to scumhunting. You've also said I'm not doing scumhunting (which I continue to disagree with).
Your own statements are contradictory.
(You have brow-beaten into us that you don't think it's
effective
. We get that.
That's not the issue here.
)
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:02 am

Post by Jake from State Farm »

In post 163, Thesp wrote:you've stated that I think it contributes to scumhunting
Well let's be honest here. This is what I actually said (the below is only edited to fix the typo where I misspelled probably)
To answer your question, yes I think that you probably think this technique is useful.
You said yourself it doesn't directly contribute to determining people's alignment which means it isn't scum hunting. All it does is help you get to know people better which isn't a reliable way to catch scum imo (and proven by your previous town games)


But I have a question for you. If you as town think it's useful to you, why do you also do it as scum?
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:12 am

Post by Thesp »

In post 164, Jake from State Farm wrote:But I have a question for you. If you as town think it's useful to you, why do you also do it as scum?
At the risk of veering off into theory discussion rather than game discussion, I'll answer. I open games by asking questions whether I'm town or scum because it helps me get a feel for the players, and because Mafia is a
social
game. I'm an avid boardgamer, and part of the enjoyment I get from games is by interacting with people. I
like
getting to know people over the course of the game (however little that can actually be). My signature partly attests to that in the Knizia quote: "When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning."

I also think that games where players are engaged with the game are games which are
more fun
. I'm not convinced that the Arbitrary Voting Stage actually engages players in any meaningful way, and I feel that questions do that better,
especially
for new players, because it gives them some kind of focus for what they can do at the start of the game. As they begin to get comfortable posting in the first place, they are more likely to open up and engage the game in meaningful ways, which is productive (if I'm town) and more entertaining as a game (if I'm town or scum).

I've also never said that asking questions "doesn't directly contribute to determining people's alignment". Instead, I've said it's not the sole determiner, but helps me get a sense of who players are, which helps me figure out players' alignments. That's the
definition
of scumhunting.
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:19 am

Post by Jake from State Farm »

guess we are going to have to agree to disagree then
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:04 am

Post by Thesp »

Just to help out a bit here:

Unofficial Vote Count


Thesp
(3): Jake from State Farm, Flames682, Boonskiies
Jake from State Farm
(2): Thesp, TheGottemer
Boonskiies
(2): ashura525, Cheery Dog
TheGottemer
(1): Honey bee

Not Voting
(1): BoroPhil

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. Our deadline is in
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:23 am

Post by BoroPhil »

I exist.
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:29 am

Post by Thesp »

In post 168, BoroPhil wrote:I exist.
Why make this post? Do you have
anything
to contribute?
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:16 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

OH I HAVE NO CLUE!!! AAAAAH

UNVOTE: Thesp

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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:57 pm

Post by Honey bee »

Vote: BoroPhil


You're just proddodging and you are an SE, there is no excuse. You really don't want to post anything constructive. And you ignored me again.

well.. Pretty much everyone ignored me lol.. Except maybe boonskiies..

I really haven't seen anything in this argument thats going to make me vote either Thesp or Jake now. The argument is coming off as a big misunderstanding.
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:00 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

I didn't ignore you...

I'm beginning to think you have a point about a misunderstanding between us but aside from that, can you honestly say Thesp looks protown?
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:15 pm

Post by Honey bee »

Oh i didn't mean you. I just meant the people I directed questions to.

Oy.. Protown? Nah, I can't really say his posts have been very productive. I wouldn't dismiss him at all, but he hasn't done anything I think is scummy enough to need my vote. I don't really think of this game in terms of towniness though, and in this game I am not seeing many slots I can call protown (possibly cheery dog).

Do slots have to be protown to not be scummy? And if so, who is protown in this game?
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:18 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

No I guess they don't, they can be null. You/ cheery are probably the closest I have to town reads
Show
Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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