Mini 1585: Muskoka Murder Mystery - Game Over

[don_johnson]

3 days. I'm thinking we push chevre and get a claim. get that reinoe case on the books so we have an alternative. thoughts?

[reinoe]

I have no idea how to tell scum Reinoe from town Reinoe. Maybe him and Konowa are scum buddies, and Reinoe wanted to bus him at first to make himself look town, and when that didn't work, just kind of moved on because he didn't actually want him lynched.

I promise to hammer konowa if he gets run up. If you recall the wagon on konowa dissolved against my will and I was one of the last people off that wagon.

[Boonskiies]

I think you and I were the only ones on that wagon, haha. I also will change my vote back. I only changed it because no one was really paying attention, and I'll have to gather more evidence before pushing for it again. I am on board with the Chevre lynch, but I don't want it to get to L-1 quite yet, so I will unvote until he posts more if he gets to L-1.

[don_johnson]

that's a dumb idea. we should be getting a claim. 3 days will fly by. if you don't want chevre lynched, then remove your vote.

[Misaka Network]

Chevre, please claim in your next post.

[chaoslord54]

Okay this is my case against Reinoe.

Spoiler:

He starts off by saying that we should lynch the miller claim which he defends in posts
164
167
169
187
193
Then he votes in194

Then further supports it in posts 196, 205, 208. 210, and 214.

Then in229, he suddenly makes a claim that’s scummy because he brings attention away from himself and the fact that he’s been claiming to lynch the miller half the time and tries to bring the idea of focusing on the other people he’s convince to get on his wagon.

242
Feels to me like he’s getting put in a corner and he’s trying to slip out of it


His posts against Guyett feel like he’s desperately trying to defend himself and have a sense of panick imo.

After running more up the miller in claim in 433 he randomly switched against EPM without much evidence on why.

On top of that his arguments on the wagon and using meta as his defense was just horrible.
And with him randomly joining sides with the person he’s been targeting the entire day so far, it just seems suspicious and scummy.

Again, overall I feel imo that Reinoe is being manipulative, panicky, and is riding an easy argument through the first day whilc trying to switch sides without much explanation whenever it's convenient for him.

[startfromtheheart]

this is getting real, yeah this is a prod doge until tomorrow morn

chevre never listen to fakegod

hes right too often beware

[startfromtheheart]

he's anti-fake.

if ure fake, he finds u. just saying

[Antihero]

i think the place we're most likely going to find scum is in:
[chevre, Aneninen, chaoslord54, BroodKingEXE]

[Antihero]

there's also bert, but guy acts like he knows what he's doing when he's reading him so i think i'll go with that.

^but yeah, the above post is the axis my reads are spinning on.

[reinoe]

Okay this is my case against Reinoe.

Spoiler:

He starts off by saying that we should lynch the miller claim which he defends in posts
164
167
169
187
193
Then he votes in194

Then further supports it in posts 196, 205, 208. 210, and 214.

Then in229, he suddenly makes a claim that’s scummy because he brings attention away from himself and the fact that he’s been claiming to lynch the miller half the time and tries to bring the idea of focusing on the other people he’s convince to get on his wagon.

242
Feels to me like he’s getting put in a corner and he’s trying to slip out of it


His posts against Guyett feel like he’s desperately trying to defend himself and have a sense of panick imo.

After running more up the miller in claim in 433 he randomly switched against EPM without much evidence on why.

On top of that his arguments on the wagon and using meta as his defense was just horrible.
And with him randomly joining sides with the person he’s been targeting the entire day so far, it just seems suspicious and scummy.

Again, overall I feel imo that Reinoe is being manipulative, panicky, and is riding an easy argument through the first day whilc trying to switch sides without much explanation whenever it's convenient for him.

That case is terrible and I'll pick it apart tomorrow because formatting on a phone is a pain in the butt.

Chaoslord is probably scum.

[chaoslord54]

Okay this is my case against Reinoe.

Spoiler:

He starts off by saying that we should lynch the miller claim which he defends in posts
164
167
169
187
193
Then he votes in194

Then further supports it in posts 196, 205, 208. 210, and 214.

Then in229, he suddenly makes a claim that’s scummy because he brings attention away from himself and the fact that he’s been claiming to lynch the miller half the time and tries to bring the idea of focusing on the other people he’s convince to get on his wagon.

242
Feels to me like he’s getting put in a corner and he’s trying to slip out of it


His posts against Guyett feel like he’s desperately trying to defend himself and have a sense of panick imo.

After running more up the miller in claim in 433 he randomly switched against EPM without much evidence on why.

On top of that his arguments on the wagon and using meta as his defense was just horrible.
And with him randomly joining sides with the person he’s been targeting the entire day so far, it just seems suspicious and scummy.

Again, overall I feel imo that Reinoe is being manipulative, panicky, and is riding an easy argument through the first day whilc trying to switch sides without much explanation whenever it's convenient for him.

That case is terrible and I'll pick it apart tomorrow because formatting on a phone is a pain in the butt.

Chaoslord is probably scum.

If it's terrible it's because it is my first time really trying to present a full case and my wording my not be the best. Also, if I need to claim to make you know I'm not scum I will. I don't want to just because I think it's better for me to keep my role hidden for now but I will if need be

[Aneninen]

Okay, Chevre, tell us something.

VOTE: Chevre

That's L–1 now and that's the main reason for my vote.

i think the place we're most likely going to find scum is in:
[chevre, Aneninen, chaoslord54, BroodKingEXE]

What exactly are your arguments for this list?

[Chevre]

OK, I am a vanilla town, but if this is my last post I need to make it count for town's sake, so I'm going to comb through the game once more and see what I root up, with a summary of everyone at the end. It's going to be a wall I think, and you can call it parroting, rehashing, whatever, but these are my thoughts of the game so far.

6: Given startfromtheheart's play throughout the game, I'm now extra wary of this random.org "read list". Given his playstyle it seems like an excellent way to stir up drama which he would be able to steer relatively clear of.

24: Misaka Network's reaction to the miller claim feels right to me.

64: I didn't notice this before because I merely ISO'd Boonskiies but this post follows right after the third vote on his "wagon" from Misaka. I also noticed that once I turned my attention to him he turned up immediately to defend himself but post none of the promised content.

74: This strikes me really weird. I was going to note it because we have now seen BroodKing himself require prodding, but then I reread this and realized that he already says "if your active lurking, I won't hesitate to try and lynch you...but I lurk sometimes too."

79: I still don't like BroodKing here. Like 74, it's contradictory; he accuses Boon's asking for reads of being suspicious yet does the same without providing any of his own reads.

87: Has anyone acknowledged how fudged Boon's reasoning for suspecting Konowa's vote on him while disregarding Misaka's? The two votes are identical in that they don't provide any reasoning, but Boon treats them entirely differently. He asks Konowa to explain, but essentially provides reasons as to why Misaka may have voted him. I think it's a bit suspicious but also a definite link should one of them turn up scum, considering Boonskiie's newbieness.
88: I know this post is mentioned later as evidence to show why Boon is newb town rather than newb scum but it doesn't really do anything for me. I think newb scum is just as capable of that confusion.

126 and 130: I still think these are super fishy. The first is screaming, "look at me! I'm doing something " and the second, as Guyett notes, is just a strange treatment of an RVS vote for so far in the game.

150: Guyett's response to Antihero is suspicious, instead of denying Antihero's blatant claim that he is scum, he just sort of asks to explain it, as though he's scum who is disappointed and a bit amazed by Antihero's investigative powers.

188: don_johnson's reasons for suspecting Konowa's miller claim seem farfetched to me. The first is one is circumstantial, and I'm not sure what the second even means. What exactly is proper "follow-up" to a miller claim?

The "suspicion" that formed on me on Page 8 is really strange and out of place. I'm not even remotely sure where any of the suspicion came from, given I hadn't really delved into the game at all at that point, in my opinion.

260: Not that I necessarily want to bring the game back full circle to miller claim discussion, but this post reminds me that there seem to be warring interpretations of what to do in the event of such a claim. Antihero calls it null and says to disregard it completely, and Guyett agrees with this, but earlier Broodking was suspecting people who did not react to the claim, yet he isn't attracting near as much suspicion as reinoe is simply because reinoe concretized his stance more to the point of arbitrariness.

262: I still haven't heard much in the way of any of Anti's claims about my posts and it boggles me to no end that people actually see verity in such a raw-edged case.

purl=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5993775]451[/url]: I think it's interesting that once epm starts getting serious pressure from Antihero and co. he attempts to re-encourage the townbloc idea, which was previously proposed by don_johnson and included epm in it

Responding to newer stuff:

482: I'd say this is WIFOM, Aneninen. You could have your vote parked exactly where it is to dodge questions like this in such a manner. Doesn't really refute my points anyway, though after readthrough I'm more inclined to believe you aren't scum.

483: Exactly how is a townbloc "formed naturally" but not "manufactured"? The block in the game you mentioned is you and one other person, and I'm not exactly sure of what it's effect was.

500: omg. don_johnson literally tells Misaka to read the game so that he can know where he stands. ahahahaha. I. can't. deal.

Final Player Reads

Boonskiies: I'm still really sold on this; a readthrough of the thread didn't really produce anything standing in the wayside of his scumminess. Like I said, 88 was brought up but it didn't really convince me that he was newbtown. I don't like the way he's reacted to my vote on him at all; it's just been defense-defense-defense with none of the content he keeps promising.

Aneninen: I don't really feel like Aneninen has been an influential entity in this game. He's really emotionally charged though, and I've questioned if that is sincere or a sort of confident-scum. For now I'm inclined to believe he's town whose play is off, but should he escape into later days with a lot of the same, I'd be wary.

Misaka Network: I actually think I align with a lot of Misaka's reads (except that which is on me obviously). His analysis and stance on the apathy of this game feel very town. While his votes are never explained within the same post, they do not feel opportunistic.

BroodkingEXE: I'm wary. The meta thing, which has been by far Broodking's biggest contribution, was kind of half-baked. Since then, he's promised content which we really haven't gotten.

chaoslord54: I'm actually going to abstain from discussing chaoslord, but from his few posts, he's town.

evilpacman18: He's not useful, but he's like the first of three for whom I could say that. What makes him a bit scummy is that he's always quick and eager to defend himself, but little else.

Antihero: Playstyle-wise, I have a problem with Antihero's flippant, confident attitude; it's producing big statements with little to no explanation, such as his bracketed suspect lists and his case on me. That aside though I think he is town because what explanation escapes him has been relatively logical. He's also, as he promised, explosive; I questioned his move from EPM to me even though he said he wasn't moving but now I think that's just how he is.

Guyett: Not really impressed? Despite his numerous posts I can't really recall anything original aside from his case on me. He feels as though he plays lackey to Antihero a lot. In my gut he feels scummy, his posting just doesn't feel as town as Misaka, Konowa, or even Antihero.

don_johnson: oh my jesus. Where do I begin. I have tried to avoid confrontation with his posts recently because we are honestly going to get nowhere with him. Everything he said on Day 1 was contradictory, but I knew for sure his playstyle was NOT the same as ours and it worked FOR HIM and no matter how you tried to restate it you were MISREPPING him and SPINNING his words and he was just not fun to talk to. I know this is all playstyle related and I probably should leave it alone, but it explains my null read on him because he simply attributes anything which one would consider scummy about him to be playstyle-related and when anyone questioned that it was instantly greeted with claims of word entanglement and "scum!". Unless he magically erupts from this vile cocoon and becomes a magical scum-finding vote-count-analyzing butterfly tomorrow, I recommend he be vigged at once.

startfromtheheart: Speaking of obfuscating playstyles...however I feel his uselessness is 100% intention. Yet I also think there is a chance that he could choose to become helpful, which don_johnson or evilpacman18 honestly have little potential for IMO. I'd put Bert in the same boat as Aneninen.

Konowa: The miller claim feels pretty legit and I think he's been fairly analytic and critical all day, so he seems like one of the more clear cut town in this game

reinoe: He was certainly flailing today, and I don't think I can forgive that 180 flip on his stance on millers regardless of the context that influenced it. I do think after that settled down though he didn't seem to shrink away as much as say Boonskiies did when the pressure left him. So I'd probably have him leaning town.

Final ranking, scum to town
Boonskiies
evilpacman18
BroodkingEXE
Guyett
startfromtheheart
Aneninen
reinoe
Antihero
Konowa
Misaka Network
chaoslord54

[Guyett]

God you are such scum and need to die

VOTE: Chevre

[]====

[BipolarChemist]

Official Vote Count

Chevre (6)

: Boonskiies, don_johnson, Antihero, Guyett, Misaka Network, Aneninen [L-1]

evilpacman18 (2):

reinoe, Konowa

Boonskiies (2):

Chevre, startfromtheheart

reinoe (1):

chaoslord54

Not Voting:

BroodKingEXE, evilpacman18

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

evilpacman18 is V/LA until July 8th

[Guyett]

Spoil sport
I wanted a reaction from people

[Antihero]

hold on, not ready yet UNVOTE:

[reinoe]

Okay this is my case against Reinoe.

He starts off by saying that we should lynch the miller claim which he defends in posts
164
167
169
187
193
Then he votes in194

Then further supports it in posts 196, 205, 208. 210, and 214.

Yes I talked about lynching the Miller. There were two reasons for me saying so and despite you detailing that I had approximately 11 posts dedicated to the project you don't actually mention what's scummy about wanting to lynch the miller. You simply say I wanted to do it. Bizarre since I was taking a megaton of flak for it and you could have at least picked a reason that someone mentioned. Furthermore I had perfectly valid reasons for wanting to lynch the miller.

Then in229, he suddenly makes a claim that’s scummy because he brings attention away from himself and the fact that he’s been claiming to lynch the miller half the time and tries to bring the idea of focusing on the other people he’s convince to get on his wagon.

This post does not make any sense, awkward post or not. How am I bringing attention away from myself? I'm answering a question that is predicated on focusing on other people. I'm in no way shape or form trying to convince anyone to get on the Konowa wagon at that point. Your "scumread" here is complete fabrication.

242

Feels to me like he’s getting put in a corner and he’s trying to slip out of it
His posts against Guyett feel like he’s desperately trying to defend himself and have a sense of panick imo.

Another complete fabrication. That's me building a cursory case one someone whom I'm starting to believe is scum. Look carefully: I'm seeing a behavior and then labeling what's scummy about it, which is not what you're doing in your "case" against me. You're simply saying "look at reinoe he's posting" without saying what's scummy about it and you can't because there's really nothing scummy about it. Look at this case:

he’s desperately trying to defend himself

.
1) That tone is not one of desperation
2) You're saying that trying to defend myself is scummy
This is trash masquerading as a "case".

After running more up the miller in claim in 433 he randomly switched against EPM without much evidence on why. On top of that his arguments on the wagon and using meta as his defense was just horrible. And with him randomly joining sides with the person he’s been targeting the entire day so far, it just seems suspicious and scummy.

Finally you made a semi-worthwhile point in your first sentence. Except that I was phone posting so I couldn't give a detailed explanation for my scumread on EPM. Furthermore Anti listed the reasons for why EPM could be scum and it's rather inconvenient to rehash something someone else says when phone posting.

I don't even know what your second sentence even means.

The third sentence: I'll see if I can decipher it...
You think it's suspicious for two people to join in on the same wagon if they've been targeting each other all day. Except I already mentioned I'm not entirely convinced Konowa is scum. I said that it's 50/50: part of my push on Konowa is because I wanted to test the miller claim and that it's part policy lynch. If that seems strange to you then too fucking bad.

Again, overall I feel imo that Reinoe is being manipulative, panicky, and is riding an easy argument through the first day whilc trying to switch sides without much explanation whenever it's convenient for him.

How am I being manipulative? You've never once mentioned how I'm being manipulative in your entire "case". You're claims of me being "panicky" are false. Riding an easy argument? Did you see the megatons of shit being thrown my way for wanting to policy lynch the miller and sticking to my guns on that? Switching sides without much explanation is a trashy excuse in the context of how your presented it and your case is on me is scum motivated.

Here's a challenge for you chaos...
What's your case on Chevre and why aren't you voting for her. You claim that "I'm more scummy" than Chevre but that's not a detail you said when you made this post...

Okay I have read through all of the posts to the best of my ability and I feel that the scummy people standing out to me are Reinoe or Chevre. Also, I feel the wagon on EPM is ridiculous, nobody pointed out any real good evidence against him and everybody so easily jumped on him for almost no reason.

So this is my vote

Vote:Reinoe

If I need to explain this I will.

Nowhere do you mention that I'm more scummy than Chevre until you get called on it. If both myself and Chevre are your scumreads then why aren't you voting for Chevre? She's more likely to be lynched because she has a bigger wagon. Your vote has multiple scum motivations behind it...

1)If you're both scum you can form a counterwagon
2)If you're scum and you know Chevre is town you can say "oh well she was a scumread of mine let's move on to my next scumread". You're subtly advocating for Chevre's lynch without getting your hands dirty.

[reinoe]

Chevre's last post is kinda townie.

[Guyett]

VOTE: chaoslord

[Guyett]

jusf fucking around

VOTE: chevre

[Aneninen]

Guyett!
As for your last two posts

Spoiler:

You have been pigeoned! TROLOLOLOLOLOL!

[chaoslord54]

Nowhere do you mention that I'm more scummy than Chevre until you get called on it. If both myself and Chevre are your scumreads then why aren't you voting for Chevre? She's more likely to be lynched because she has a bigger wagon. Your vote has multiple scum motivations behind it...

1)If you're both scum you can form a counterwagon
2)If you're scum and you know Chevre is town you can say "oh well she was a scumread of mine let's move on to my next scumread". You're subtly advocating for Chevre's lynch without getting your hands dirty.

Fine Reinoe, I will back off of you for now and focus on my other scum read. But, if she ends up being town then I am going to go after you tomorrow and build a better case. But for now,

Vote:Chevre

[BipolarChemist]

Prodding BroodKingEXE