[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[BBmolla]

have the second mafia gain BP

And have them start as Mafia Doc/Goon or two goons?

[TierShift]

I like the goon/goon shared 1-shot BP idea by nikanor.

[BBmolla]

kk

[Cheery Dog]

What if the non-doc mafia dies, the doc becomes BP

Give it self-doc powers?

[ika]

have the second mafia gain BP

And have them start as Mafia Doc/Goon or two goons?

i would do doc/goon first the have other be full BP. and the mafias can deicde who gets doc in pregame.

but i did already get ninjaed

[Jingle]

have the second mafia gain BP

And have them start as Mafia Doc/Goon or two goons?

i would do doc/goon first the have other be full BP. and the mafias can deicde who gets doc in pregame.

but i did already get ninjaed

This would work but its also complicated to explain. I think the shared one-shot works just as well. It's not like multiple mafdoc protects were going through anyway.

[Kaiveran]

I was watching this game, and I feel like the biggest non-gameplay contributor to the Mafia's loss was the lone Doc having no protection.

1-Shot shared BP sounds okay, but I was originally going to suggest both be 1-Shot BP.

How is there a confirmed town if SK is lynched Day 1?

[Not_Mafia]

Town doctor is safe to claim as mafia don't have a kill

[Kaiveran]

Town doctor is safe to claim as mafia don't have a kill

Oh right, and if Mafia counterclaims, they will just eventually confirm themselves scum.

Lemme think a bit.

[Kaiveran]

There are No EVs for Nightless setups D:
and I doubt my abysmal figure of 20% win rate for Mafia after D1 SK lynch is correct. Some help in this department would be appreciated.

In the mean time, since you're meaning to mitigate the impact of an SK dying early: why not give the Mafia a 1-Shot Kill if SK is lynched?

[BBmolla]

There are No EVs for Nightless setups D:
and I doubt my abysmal figure of 20% win rate for Mafia after D1 SK lynch is correct. Some help in this department would be appreciated.

In the mean time, since you're meaning to mitigate the impact of an SK dying early: why not give the Mafia a 1-Shot Kill if SK is lynched?

Because then town can't win in a 1 Mafia, 1 SK, 2 Townie situation.

[Not_Mafia]

Town can no lynch if the mafia aren't permanent bulletproof

[BBmolla]

True.

I guess what I really wanted out of the setup is the SK is the urgent need to be taken care of, and then once that happens Mafia can become the focus. BUT you want to try to lynch one mafia so they don't slip away with the victory.

But eh.

I wanted the dayplay to be the biggest part, with the SK getting a nightkill off like 50% of the time.

[ika]

personally i would make it nightless and have them submit actions. unless maf only has night chats.

it would be intresting to experiment with maf day chats in this setup

[Salamence20]

Baby Enough Scum 8P

2 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

1-Shot Bulletproof Townie
4 VTs

• Daystart
  
• The mafia have a shared 1-shot bulletproof ability
  
• The mafia team do not possess a nightkill
  
• Serial Killer may choose not to kill.
  
• Serial Killer wins 1-1-1 endgames and 1-1 endgames.
  
• Mafia wins 1-2-1 endgame.

In this scenario, mafia do not know if they were shot, and the SK doesn't know if he shot mafia or town, also if SK is lynched D1, town doesn't get a clear. I'm wondering if mafia should get a shot if SK is lynched D1, since it goes to nightless, or that mafia have to choose one townie to clear since nightless is scumsided. What do you think?

[BBmolla]

Town still have a clear in that setup btw, the BP claims to be clear.

But 1-shot BP for town might still be better to stop accidental confirmed towns?

[Kaiveran]

In the mean time, since you're meaning to mitigate the impact of an SK dying early: why not give the Mafia a 1-Shot Kill if SK is lynched?

Because then town can't win in a 1 Mafia, 1 SK, 2 Townie situation.[/quote]

Fair enough

Also @salamence, 2:7 Nightless is not scumsided with a confirmed town. Nightless is inherently a bit townsided (compared to the mathematical result) because there's no possibility of countering strong townies. Throw what is basically an IC into the mix and odds look rather slim for the Mafia.

@molla: I think Salamence's idea plus your "1st Mafia lynched vengekills" bring this up to par.

A bit contrived for sure, but then so was Hope Plus One.

[Jingle]

^ I think this rewards mafia for lynching town D1, and then SK hunting too. Not sure if that's intentional, but mafia actually doesn't want to hit the real SK on D1.

[Jingle]

In fact, mafia doesn't want to hit the SK until a kill has been missed.

[BBmolla]

Doctor or Bulletproof, which is better

I think Bulletproof might be better to stop more people being confirmed town

[BBmolla]

Baby Enough Scum 8P

2 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

1-Shot Bulletproof Townie
4 VTs

• Daystart
  
• The mafia team do not possess a nightkill
  
• The mafia have a shared 1-shot bulletproof ability
  
• The first mafia lynched recieves a vengekill.
  
• Serial Killer may choose not to kill.
  
• Serial Killer wins 1-1-1 endgames and 1-1 endgames.
  
• Mafia wins 1-2-1 endgame.

A lot of "details" but might work okay in practice?

[Kaiveran]

I think points 3 and 4 could be condensed into "Mafia have the factional abilities of a 1-Shot BP and 1-Shot Vengeful Kill" or suchlike. But yeah, looks good to me.

[mith]

A couple of vanilla variants I came up with playing around with my probability spreadsheet...

Blind Rage

If an unrevealed Mafia is lynched, the Mafia group chooses another of their members to be revealed by the Mod the following Day.

Setups with good EV:

11p: 3:8 (33%), 4:7 (32%)
13p: 3:10 (39%), 4:9 (43%)
15p: 3:12 (44%), 4:11 (51%)
17p: 3:14 (48%), 6:11 (27%)
19p: 5:14 (30%), 6:13 (34%)
21p: 5:16 (34%), 6:15 (41%)
23p: 5:18 (38%), 6:17 (46%)
25p: 5:20 (41%), 6:19 (51%), 8:17 (28%)

Odd scum counts are worse for town, of course. Somewhat similar to the Paired Lovers setup in terms of EV, but in practice gives the scum more flexibility in when to bus and who to sacrifice, and the days with a revealed scum to lynch speed things up (though not as much as with Lovers), while also giving the town the option to slow down and discuss a bit before the lynch happens.

The Bus Stop

If the day 1 lynch is Mafia, the Town wins immediately.

Setups with good EV:

7p: 2:5 (38%)
9p: 2:7 (40%), 3:6 (37%)
11p: 2:9 (43%), 3:8 (36%)
13p: 2:11 (45%), 3:10 (36%)
15p: 2:13 (48%), 3:12 (37%), 4:11 (33%)
17p: 2:15 (50%), 3:14 (38%), 4:13 (33%)
19p: 3:16 (39%), 4:15 (33%)
21p: 3:18 (41%), 4:17 (33%), 5:16 (31%)
23p: 3:20 (42%), 4:19 (34%), 5:18 (31%)
25p: 3:22 (43%), 4:21 (35%), 5:20 (31%)

The goal here is to force the generation of more information day 1, as the Mafia can't bus. The theoretical percentages stay relatively flat for long ranges here, as two factors balance: when the Town only outnumbers the Mafia by a small count, the likelihood of winning day 1 increases (approaching 50% for large X:X+1), but the after day 1 the town is better off with more mislynches.

The Bus Stop 2

If the day 1 or day 2 lynch is Mafia, the Town wins immediately.

Setups with good EV:

13p: 2:11 (55%)
15p: 2:13 (55%)
17p: 2:15 (56%)
19p: 2:17 (56%), 3:16 (50%), 4:15 (51%)
21p: 3:18 (50%), 4:17 (49%), 5:16 (52%)
23p: 3:20 (50%), 4:19 (47%), 5:18 (49%)
25p: 3:22 (50%), 4:21 (47%), 5:20 (47%), 6:19 (50%)

[mith]

(And actually the Bus Stop 2 would be just fine at even player counts; EV would be a bit less than with one fewer townie, as the probability of winning days 1 and 2 are lower but afterward the town has to no lynch to restore parity.)

[Jingle]

I think that at anything at a large level on the bus stops setups, optimal play for scum is to spam walls and try to clog up the thread as much as possible. A Day 1 no lynch to lack of consensus would be pretty crippling to town.