Mini 1602: Game Over


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Post Post #500 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:21 am

Post by SleepyKrew »

VC 2.02


Oso
(2) - AGar, implosion
chaoslord54
(2) - Malakittens, DeasVail
tman2nd
(1) - Aneninen

Not Voting
(6) - Oso, chaoslord54, phokdapolees, shaddowez, tman2nd, rack

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 deadline will hit in: (expired on 2014-09-13 13:15:56).

I am beginning a replacement search for rack. If he posts before I find one, he keeps his slot.
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Post Post #501 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:21 am

Post by SleepyKrew »

Grandi replaces rack.
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Post Post #502 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:27 am

Post by Grandi »

Hi,

Reading up now, let me know if you want me to focus on stuff.
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Post Post #503 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:50 am

Post by chaoslord54 »

Okay so my strongest read at the moment as a town tell is Malakittens

From there I feel that it goes

Agar
Deasvail

My leans town are

Phokdapolees
Implosion

My Nulls are:

Grande
Shadoweez

My leans scum:

Aneninen
Tman2nd
Oso

I have not been able to feel strong enough about my list except for my read on Malakittens so that's why I don't want to say I have with complete certainty someone I feel is scum. I will post reasoning in my next post after my classes.
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Post Post #504 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:42 am

Post by Malakittens »

Hm.

Will post after work just need a day off to get things up and running.


Also ugh.
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #505 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:47 am

Post by Oso »

From Agar's #476:
The point is not what you could have done, or what you did eventually. It was your initial entrance. That speaks a lot louder than afterwords when you either had time to say "Oh shit, that was dumb!" or a scumbuddy possibly told you. The point is a town player's first mindset isn't "Oh let me not contribute!" If it is, they're bad.

Nice dichotomy you have going there. A couple of them actually. Putting aside what you think proper entrance play for a replacement is, how exactly would a scumbuddy have told me I was screwing up?

---

@Aneninen. Couple of points there I'll go ahead and answer.

Mala tied Chaos being scum with Niel being scum. That question was me wondering if she had anything independent of Niel's alignment to base Chaos' alignment on. Her saying she'd re-evaluate if Niel was the cop, told me she was using an association rather than what she considered solid evidence. I'd still like to know why she thinks they are connected though.

I had made it clear that I would hammer Niel. But I also wanted both Shadowez and Agar post their thoughts before it happened. They were the only two who had been on the wagon pre-claim that hadn't posted their thoughts on the claim after Neil made it. I couldn't guarantee that would happen but I could help make it happen by not voting. I point to Mala's requesting the Hammer a couple of times and the whole mood was leaning lynch Neil. If he had gotten to L-1 again, I was afraid there would be a hammer (not just by Mala, anyone could have decided to drop it). And I was right, Agar's post on the claim, Implosion's vote, Mala's hammer happened all in the space of about an hour. I was on the computer during that time frame and my e-mail notifier told me their had been posts in this thread but I wasn't able to view the topic until after the hammer had fallen. I didn't have a chance to vote after my personal vote conditions had been met.

When you said this, "... Also, I have a feeling that he tries keeping himself "under the radar"...." That is the absolute, 100% correct interpretation of my play so far. I replaced into a slot that was pretty much perceived as a null by the rest of the players as far as I could see. I wanted to keep it that way until the end of D1 if I could. Player at L-1, day nearing it's end. I could have always been randomly nightkilled, no way to help that, but I wanted to to be around for D2. Null players don't get NKed except randomly. They do get scumread though but that is correctable.

----

VOTE: phokdapolees

After the dust-up about Tammy's vote, he doesn't do a whole lot. To his credit, his subsequent votes do stay on 2 people he has scumread: Rack and Neil(Flames). But he mentions nothing, as in zilch, about Neil(Flames) that even justifies his suspicion of Neil(Flames) other than Post #270 and that is just his current scum list:

Also, AGar is town, Tammy is meh, Riabi is meh, chaos is town, mala's meh, aneninen is town, implosion is scum (his reads list in 210 has scumreads of pretty much every easy mislynch), I'm obvtown, shaddow is meh, tman's weird, flames is scum (PoE), elias is town, rack is scum
flames is listed as POE, no solid evidence.

He sheeps Tammy onto Neil and does give a follow up post as to the parts he doesn't like but there is no explanation with them. Just 2 naked quotes. Post #329 and a comment on how he too thinks it is weird that Neil didn't know what slot he was replacing into.

Post Neil's cop claim all we get is site Meta from him, not even player meta. I saw this dood do that the other the other day..." sort of thing.

Of all the people that voted Neil, all had some sort of justification for it based on either player meta or based on the game so far even if I don't exactly agree with some of the reasons.

All except Phok.



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My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Post Post #506 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:36 am

Post by Grandi »

Ok, done with my read through. Processing power was a bit low through the last few pages. Definitely need to do some more in depth reading tomorrow, but here's a list of initial reads.

AGar - town
Oso - his predecessor was a non entity, and his posts were pretty null to me
chaoslord54 - earlier posts pinged my scumdar, later ones were a bit better, but still leaning scum
Malakittens - leaning town
Aneninen - town
implosion - town
phokdapolees - can barely remember anything he said, which is probably not a good sign. I'll get to him after ISOs tomorrow
shaddowez - leaning town
tman2nd - null
DeasVail - didn't like Elias that much, but his catch up looked pretty good

Bigger post coming tomorrow, with a fresh mind. Need some sleep now, job interview in the morning.
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Post Post #507 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:37 am

Post by phokdapolees »

Chaos's reads list is really lazily put together, going after Oso, who's been scrutinized for most of the day, and anen and tman, who would most likely be pretty easy (mis)lynches. Plus chaos has been laying low for most of the game, which he also did in my mini normal, where he was scum.
VOTE: chaos

Agar makes some good points on Oso wanting to stay clear of his partner's wagon until he saw where it went and thinking he picked up on a "cop tell" from Tammy, and looking through Riabi's iso, he conveniently avoided giving any reads throughout his first few posts, and then is overly cautious about quickhammering in his post 184. From his one post after that, he calls rack, the biggest wagon at the time, scum and only gives one townread (Agar).

Also, here's flames' one full reads list-
Flames682 wrote:Townreads - AGar, Elias, shaddowez, Tammy, mala
Scumreads - rack, phok,
Everyone else - Not really sure

I have already explained my reads for rack and phok, so I don't really need to explain more. Also what is White Knighting?
As you can see, he conveniently leaves chaos and Riabi in his "not sure" category, making a flames/neil, Riabi/Oso and chaos scumteam seem like a big possibility.
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Post Post #508 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:26 am

Post by Oso »

No Rebuttal to my vote of you in #505, phok?
My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Post Post #509 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:30 pm

Post by chaoslord54 »

phokdapolees wrote:Chaos's reads list is really lazily put together, going after Oso, who's been scrutinized for most of the day, and anen and tman, who would most likely be pretty easy (mis)lynches. Plus chaos has been laying low for most of the game, which he also did in my mini normal, where he was scum.
VOTE: chaos

Agar makes some good points on Oso wanting to stay clear of his partner's wagon until he saw where it went and thinking he picked up on a "cop tell" from Tammy, and looking through Riabi's iso, he conveniently avoided giving any reads throughout his first few posts, and then is overly cautious about quickhammering in his post 184. From his one post after that, he calls rack, the biggest wagon at the time, scum and only gives one townread (Agar).

Also, here's flames' one full reads list-
Flames682 wrote:Townreads - AGar, Elias, shaddowez, Tammy, mala
Scumreads - rack, phok,
Everyone else - Not really sure

I have already explained my reads for rack and phok, so I don't really need to explain more. Also what is White Knighting?
As you can see, he conveniently leaves chaos and Riabi in his "not sure" category, making a flames/neil, Riabi/Oso and chaos scumteam seem like a big possibility.


Notice that I mentioned that I was going to update it more thoroughly later tonight because I started school today. That's why it was hastily done. That and I was trying to dodge a prod. Also, in context Flames' mentioned that towards me because I was inactive at the moment (a comment that a couple people made earlier on on their lists).
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Post Post #510 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:31 pm

Post by Malakittens »

Probably townphoka OSA, he's prob town
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #511 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:15 pm

Post by implosion »

I remember thinking I had a good reason to townread phok. I'll look more at shit later. This is mostly a prod dodge.
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Post Post #512 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:40 pm

Post by AGar »

Weekly prod dodge. Tomorrow!
Ski mask? Check! Sawed off? Check! Guilty conscience, fear of death? Check! Check! Check!

Get to know me. Or don't. I won't tell you what to do. I'm not God. Or your father. Or your boss.
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Post Post #513 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:20 pm

Post by shaddowez »

Alright, I promised some reads last night, so here they are.

Elias
- Most of D1 was a null read for me, leaning slightly townish. He was casting votes, asking questions, and generally providing reasons for what he was doing. When he asked Mala for her town read on Rack and accepted her answer as "Gut and ~reasons~." I started to pay a bit closer attention, but didn't really find anything scummy. is where things start getting wonky. He was on the Flames wagon, then hopped off because he wanted an answer from me and because he was going to be V/LA. He replied to my answer, saying he would "buy that", but never hopped back on the wagon, then started questioning why we were voting Neil. He goes back to voting Rack, who he'd basically been tunneling for the first part of the day.

Elias_the_thief wrote:This is disappointing. I don't buy the claim either. Which makes it unfortunate that I've been the only one defending the slot this whole time.

I don't buy this either, and already called him out on it. He says he was defending the slot, but has only been defending Neil, and by defending we're just talking about the same post again.

I don't have quite enough info from
DV
to change my scum read yet. I like the detail he went into on some of his reads list, but he seems very wishy washy on some of the other reads, sounding as though he wants to follow popular opinion without having much of his own reasoning to back up said opinion.

tman
- He seems to be buddying tammy a little bit in the beginning. He defends the Flames/tammy joke argument that Phok was making, and then brings up tammy's insistence she's town. Doesn't provide much content, and then comments in his read regarding tammy that "I mean, I read her as town, but she's not outstandingly so." () Breaks down Anen's reads list, and again doesn't provide much in the way of content. He continues to ask questions, and I like , but then he seems to fade back and not contribute as much. Also noted, he hasn't posted since the flip except to say he'd post more later.

chaos
- Votes Rack with a naked vote in when there's already a decent wagon. When he does give reasons in , he can't really give reasons on why he finds Rack scummy, although he labels him as an "OMGUS town". Part of why he reads Mala as scummy is she's trying to be "trolly", but Flames' posts were in a "joking nature". He never saw Flames as scum, and then posts

chaoslord54 wrote:From there his argument with Tammy just comes off to me as someone who realized they were caught in their ways and then is desperately trying to push eyes away form him and onto someone else.

So
Vote:Neil113

I feel that chaos' line here accurately describes exactly what he's doing as well.

He continues to push on Mala, and then in states that Mala is his strongest townread, with no reasoning whatsoever.

I'm going to look into some more people as well, but for now I'm going to say my strongest scumread is chaos, and am actually going to
VOTE: chaos
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Post Post #514 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:40 pm

Post by tman2nd »

Sorry, I haven't gotten around to posting yet. I'll do that now starting with a look at everything that concerns me specifically. Then I'll post updated reads on everyone.
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Post Post #515 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:41 pm

Post by tman2nd »

Aneninen wrote:As it has been pointed out by Implosion, the Flames/Neil wagon is very interesting.

About this topic...

Spoiler:
It started to gain steam around (Agar, Implosion, Aneninen), by it consisted of (Agar, Implosion, Aneninen, Tman, Elias).
Elias unvoted in , right after Shadowez had joined in . Look at this:
"Shadow, how is this situation at all different than the wagon on Rack?"
(Elias, ). I strongly think that the Flames-wagon was
greatly
different than the Rack-wagon. Shadowez pointed out the same thing in :
"Mainly, post count. The wagon on Rack started day 1 with an RVS vote, and grew in just a few days. In that timeframe, and the time since the Flame wagon started, everyone has been posting, and there's been more content to scrutinize."
. (Though, there is a small error in his logic: The Flames wagon was started with a RVS vote too, Agar never changed his vote on Day1.)

Before the replacement, the wagon was (Agar, Implosion, Aneninen, Tman, Shadowez), . Tammy joined for a short while, Implosion and Shadowez jumped off afterwards.

Mind the fact, that at this point of the game Neil had 3 (and 4, after Phok) votes, while there were two 2-votes-wagons, Rack and Tman. Phokdapolees joined and Implosion rejoined, Chaos put Neil at L–1 afterwards. Anyone of them, especially Phok could have jumped on any of the counterwagons. Phok had never been on this wagon before, so I think that's a very strong towntell. Implosion's a bit strange, but the post
"The very first thing I find when I look at neil's meta leads me to believe he has a history of fakeclaiming as town."
seems to be genuine. (Or at least, I did a similar thing later, on Day1). A moderately strong towntell on him. Chaos' vote would have been an unnecessarry bussing if he were scum. Though, it's possible that he jumped on because he felt that Neil would go down. Still, a mild towntell.
And who jumped off the wagon in ? Tman!

Shadowez returned to the wagon in , L–1 again. Neil claimed Cop in , Aneninen and Implosion jumped off next. Both of them are returned later (considering the claim a fake one). The other 4 names – AGar, Phok, Chaos, Shadowez – could have left the wagon after the claim. Another small townread on all of them.
Tman said in
"I'm going to hop back onto the wagon if nobody has any objections to him being at L-1."
– but, at that point his vote would have been the L–1! (He even added in that he would wait for AGar and Shadowez – why?)
MalaKitty's hammer is a null in my eyes: if it hadn't been for her, someone else would have hammered Neil.

Another notice: considering the living players and excluding the RVS, Rack, and Oso weren't ever on the Neil-wagon. Maybe we should examine them later.


Summary.
Having examined the votes I got the following conclusions.

Town: AGar, Phokdapolees
Lean town: Chaos, Implosion + MalaKitty (the latter one is a general read, it has nothing to do with the votes)

...Huh? (can't sort them, the list shows a town -> scum order, though it's mostly intuitional):
Shadowez – He could have been lean town on this list but Implosion's wall about the topic made me think. Maybe my reads are wrong.
Oso – More information is needed.
Rack – Away from the Flames/Neil wagon but, Flames was on his wagon for a long time. Rack's posts don't give me town vibes.
Elias – Away from the wagon, weak defense attemps on that slot eg. , , weak explanation for that in but, in general his posts are not particularly scummy.

Scum: Tman

VOTE: Tman2nd

Hold on, what exactly are you scum reading me for?
shaddowez wrote:the best bet I have regarding Tammy's death points to tman.

I don't see you elaborating this in your current post.
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Post Post #516 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:42 pm

Post by Aneninen »

Tman: my scumread on you is based upon the Day1 vote movement, you can check it in the spoiler part of the post linked by you. However, I think I should examine other possibilities too. I might have misinterpreted or skimmed over facts.
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Post Post #517 (ISO) » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:22 pm

Post by Aneninen »

@Grandi: Hi there! I'm waiting for some details about your readlist. It seems that there are too few scums on it. And good luck for the interview! ^_^

@Chaos: I'm waiting for some details about your read list.

___

On Oso:

Spoiler:
Oso wrote:
Mala tied Chaos being scum with Niel being scum. That question was me wondering if she had anything independent of Niel's alignment to base Chaos' alignment on. Her saying she'd re-evaluate if Niel was the cop, told me she was using an association rather than what she considered solid evidence.
I'd still like to know why she thinks they are connected though.


That is an interesting question.

Oso wrote:
I had made it clear that I would hammer Niel. ... (
post has been edited by me
)


This part may or may not be true and I don't think it would be ever proven or disproven.

Oso wrote:
When you said this, "... Also, I have a feeling that he tries keeping himself "under the radar"...." That is the absolute, 100% correct interpretation of my play so far. I replaced into a slot that was pretty much perceived as a null by the rest of the players as far as I could see. I wanted to keep it that way until the end of D1 if I could. Player at L-1, day nearing it's end. I could have always been randomly nightkilled, no way to help that, but I wanted to to be around for D2. Null players don't get NKed except randomly. They do get scumread though but that is correctable.


...I think a gameplay like this helps merely your own survival instead of the town. In addition, I don't think a freshly-replaced-null player has more chance for surviving a Night than a townread one.

Oso wrote:
vote: phokdapolees
... (
post has been edited by me
)
Of all the people that voted Neil, all had some sort of justification for it based on either player meta or based on the game so far even if I don't exactly agree with some of the reasons.
All except Phok.


I think this case is very weak.

In general, I'm still unsure about Oso. The first part gives town vibes (unless there's an Oso/Chaos scumteam), the next part is null, the third part gives scum vibes (survival gameplay), and the case against Phokdapolees may come from a townie or a scum either (a kind of WIFOM, jumping on an existing wagon would be scummy while a new case is town-ish, but the case in itself is weak...) The fact that Oso's answer is very detailed and seems to be well-based (even if I disagree with many things) is a mild townread.
Frankly, I don't know.

___

phokdapolees wrote:Chaos's reads list is really lazily put together, going after Oso, who's been scrutinized for most of the day, and anen and tman, who would most likely be pretty easy (mis)lynches. Plus chaos has been laying low for most of the game, which he also did in my mini normal, where he was scum.


You may be true about the Oso part.
However, I don't think either Tman or me are easy lynches now. Tman has only one vote now, my one, even if many players have mentioned him in their posts. As far as I can remember, most players have a townread on me right now. By the way, how do you know that we're "
(mis)
lynches"
?

___

@Shadowez, .
As for DeasVail, we need more posts.
As for Tman, you're right, he doesn't provide too much content. I've examined only his votes before but this might strengthen my scumread on him. (Though I know that I might be wrong about him.)
As for the first two posts you mentioned about Chaos: I've already seen a town-Chaos doing the same – though, it doesn't prove that he's town now.
By the way, your links are not working.

Nevertheless, I'll ISO Chaos as soon as I have time for that but meanwhile, I'd like to hear more from MalaKitty and DeasVail about the topic.
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Post Post #518 (ISO) » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:00 pm

Post by tman2nd »

I'm sorry I flaked again. I have a hard time getting reads on people. Does anyone have any advice?
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Post Post #519 (ISO) » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:21 pm

Post by phokdapolees »

@anen: True, you're not easy lynches at this very moment, but it'd be most likely be much easier to push a case and lynch on you or tman than anyone else. And I don't definitively know that you'd be mislynches, I was just announcing the possibility of chaos scum going after you two as opposed to trying to take on anyone else, and as such would be mislynches (which is what I believe at this point).
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Post Post #520 (ISO) » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:09 pm

Post by AGar »

Oso wrote:From Agar's #476:
The point is not what you could have done, or what you did eventually. It was your initial entrance. That speaks a lot louder than afterwords when you either had time to say "Oh shit, that was dumb!" or a scumbuddy possibly told you. The point is a town player's first mindset isn't "Oh let me not contribute!" If it is, they're bad.

Nice dichotomy you have going there. A couple of them actually. Putting aside what you think proper entrance play for a replacement is, how exactly would a scumbuddy have told me I was screwing up?


Not sure when you last played but daytalk has become pretty standard fare. Also, yes. It is a strong dichotomy. Because it's correct. I still have yet to see anything I would find as genuine posting from you. Mostly deflecting back to the player who initiates conversation with you rather than carrying it on, with a tone to shut down the alley. You're acting like you don't want to carry on conversations that aren't specifically on your terms and under your own control.

Please explain this away.




Aneninen wrote:AGar, what's your opinion about Tman?


Been reading as townish. Seen nothing to change that. Carrying on as usual.




I keep seeing people say chaos is scum and I keep forgetting that chaos is a person so I'm fairly OK with chaos being scum here.
Ski mask? Check! Sawed off? Check! Guilty conscience, fear of death? Check! Check! Check!

Get to know me. Or don't. I won't tell you what to do. I'm not God. Or your father. Or your boss.
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tman2nd
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Post Post #521 (ISO) » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:12 pm

Post by tman2nd »

I've decided that getting my reads by attempting reads lists isn't the best strategy for me. I think I'll do better focusing on a couple people at a time. I'll post more tomorrow morning. (I promise this time.) One thing of note is that Aneninen's scumreading of me is strengthening my townread of them.
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Malakittens
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Post Post #522 (ISO) » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:45 pm

Post by Malakittens »

I need to stop being addicted to league and a show. PROMISE THIS GAME HAS MY ATTETION RIGHT AFTER WORK!
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


Get to know a Mala~Grey<3 4.7.2015
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Oso
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Post Post #523 (ISO) » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:59 pm

Post by Oso »

AGar wrote:

Not sure when you last played but daytalk has become pretty standard fare....

[snip]


But you don't believe that is the case here. Why even bring up daytalk?
My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
-
I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.
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Post Post #524 (ISO) » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:16 pm

Post by SleepyKrew »

yawn
To be clear: my avatar was drawn by SaveTheDragons.
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