Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah, I basically just kept confusing myself. There's no way there isn't scum in the neighborhood.

[Cutty Shark]

Yeah, I basically just kept confusing myself. There's no way there isn't scum in the neighborhood.

Right, so I want you to explain to me why you said "likely" in 451. Just talk me through what you were thinking.

[gossamer wings]

Tammy, Cutty, what do you guys make of Baboon's "certainty" that I'm scum? How does their degree of certainty square with their reasoning?

It doesn't bother me how certain they are. I'm not sure Mara puts herself out there in the way she has as scum. I think she comes across certain about her reads as scum, and right now I wish that Bert hadn't had that meltdown troll that got them immediately lynched so I'd have more experience with Mara!scum behavior, but I think as scum she does it a bit differently and doesn't put herself out there so much front and center.

I don't understand the second question.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah, I basically just kept confusing myself. There's no way there isn't scum in the neighborhood.

Right, so I want you to explain to me why you said "likely" in 451. Just talk me through what you were thinking.

When I made the post "if there's scum in the neighborhood, which there likely is" I think I was considering the possibility that some bastard mechanic was at play with the scum in the neighborhood/PM thing. I'm honestly not sure. After that when you were asking me about it I didn't really understand what I was arguing and felt like I was arguing the difference between being 100% sure and being very positive about something, which is really all we can be about this until we know for certain it wasn't a town gambit. I know it's very unlikely but it is a (very small) possibility. I tend to overthink that stuff and I have seen worse gambits.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Does that make sense?

[Cutty Shark]

Yes, thanks. Now I need to figure out what I'm doing.

[FourTrouble]

Degree of certainty should match up to the gamestate. If someone is more certain than they should be, something's wrong.

Baboon's certainty that I'm scum is excessively high for the gamestate/reasoning. Their approach to the game suggests that they'll read me as scum, regardless of what I do or say, probably for the rest of the game. That degree of certainty should be evaluated against their reasoning. Their reasoning was: OMGUS + reactive play + a belief that I stole their idea. I don't believe their certainty matches up to their reasoning. Think about it. How much weight would you give each point? OMGUS? I'd give it none. And Baboon are experienced enough to not give it much if any. Reactive play? Arguably more weight than OMGUS but still, not much. Stealing their idea? That's a tougher question. If they can link this behavior to scum -- show how this behavior makes it very probable that I'm scum -- then maybe their certainty is justified. They'd be wrong that I stole their idea, but I'd understand where their coming from. If they can't link that behavior to scum, which is what I believe based on my own inability to link the behavior to scum + their reaction when I asked them the question (refusal to answer), then their certainty doesn't match up to their reasoning. That's the problem I'm having with them.

[I have no creativity]

I always assume players in hydras are good, which isn't always the case

We aren't good, we are excellent.

[Baboon Pride]

yeah, even if I wasn't ignoring you, and refusing to answer your question, I would highly doubt you would be able to understand where my mind is coming from, even if I were to explain it since you can't even seem to pick up why the basic reasons to why plagiarizing stuff I said, to increase your credibility all the while, attempting to decrease our credibility within the game is scummy as fuck. My points aren't ever based in empirical data, neither are the reasons to why I read people as scum or town, and why I trust people when I do. The game state doesn't need to be all that great for me to be able to get a read, and if it did, I wouldn't be able to pick off reads via first impression to which is what I generally do. No, my reasons are generally based of off theoretical ideas, and stuff that end up confusing me when I think about it to long. I see play from a systemic point of view, underlying motives that involves everyone in the game, and not just a few people of which you're interacting with. It takes to much of my time, and energy to explain my reasons to you. It takes a hellalot of my time to explain my reasons to anyone, including my own hydra partner so the people I am taking my time to work with, and understand where I'm coming from pretty much have to be my town-reads

[Baboon Pride]

Also waiting for people to realize that FT asked us to sign our posts, because he couldn't figure out who was posting when, and what but then, when F-16 talked to him about Cephrir, he was able to say that he was focusing on

my

posts and [/i]my[/i] reasons and focusing more on me, and able to realize that, even though he didn't know who was posting what to begin with.

[Baboon Pride]

AK, shitty cases aside, why is FT town?

or, town enough that it warrants your defense of that player? because, that isn't actually explained

[Cutty Shark]

Also waiting for people to realize that FT asked us to sign our posts, because he couldn't figure out who was posting when, and what but then, when F-16 talked to him about Cephrir, he was able to say that he was focusing on

my

posts and [/i]my[/i] reasons and focusing more on me, and able to realize that, even though he didn't know who was posting what to begin with.

Thanks for reminding me about this.
FT?

[FourTrouble]

Fuck it, I'm gonna make a last go at explaining why Baboon should be lynched. I'll start with Baboon's shitty read on me:

We weren't told who is in the neighborhood, but someone in there was told that scum was part of it. So, scum could literally just lurk, gain information secretly, and negate any pro-town neighborhood-strategy. I just don't see the point of keeping it secret or harping on it. I'd rather move on and talk about things that matter. Like Baboon's alignment.

The basis of Baboon's certainty that I'm scum. Baboon had suggested that scum might be lurking in the Intern PM a couple hours earlier. I hadn't seen Baboon's post yet because I hadn't taken a look at the Intern PM for a few hours.

(But even if I had, I don't see what the problem is. Assume I saw Baboon's post. What am I doing here? I'm taking Baboon's idea and using it as justification for revealing the existence of the Intern PM. My post isn't about the possibility that scum are lurking, it's an explanation for why I did what I did. Assuming I got the scum lurking idea from Baboon, wouldn't it make sense to say I was moved to do what I did because of Baboon?)

Pretty basically, FT is taking some of her thoughts from the neighborhood and presenting them as his own (the bit about possible fifth lurking neighborscum)

I didn't see that in the neighborhood, but if Mara wants credit for that idea, she's welcome to take it. Doesn't really matter. But the idea that I stole her thoughts and presented them as my own is not true.

Here, I clarify that I didn't see her post in the Intern PM. I also say that if she wants credit for the idea, she can have it. The last thing on my mind is credit for the scum-lurking-in-the-Intern-PM idea. But I was intrigued by the idea that "stealing" the scum-lurking-in-the-Intern-PM idea was scummy, so I ask:

Baboon, just to clear something up, I never read what you wrote in the neighborhood. But even if I did, so what? Why is that behavior scummy?

She refused to answer for a couple hundred posts. Now, she kinda answers with this:

I would highly doubt you would be able to understand where my mind is coming from, even if I were to explain it since you can't even seem to pick up why the basic reasons to why plagiarizing stuff I said, to increase your credibility all the while, attempting to decrease our credibility within the game is scummy as fuck.

Which is such bullshit for a number of reasons. First, I explicitly gave Baboon credit for the idea, so her claim that I'm trying to decrease her credibility is bullshit. Hell, I don't see how taking the scum-is-lurking idea even increases my credibility, much less decreases hers? She clearly posted the idea in the Intern PM before I posted in here. So what's the scum motivation for basing my behavior on that idea? What is the scum motivation for any of the posts I've just quoted. What is the scum motivaiton for 191? How does that post increase my credibility while decreased Baboon's credibility?

Which is bullshit. This post, right here, is how I know Baboon never considered the scum motivation for her shiny plagiarism argument. And I wish more people just saw how obvious this all is, but since most of you probably won't, I'm gonna help you guys out and explain. This is what's going on. Baboon is grabbing onto a shiny idea -- the mistaken notion that I stole her idea -- and is running with it. She clearly hasn't considered the scum motivation BEHIND this shiny point. If she had, she'd have noticed earlier that there isn't any. And she would have dropped that argument, along with her certainty that I'm scum. Butshe's just running with it as far as she can. Still running with it. Why does this mean Baboon is scum? Behold:

If you want to get me lynched, I suggest finding actual scum motivation or, at least try to. I'm well aware of how easy it is to latch on to the shinest thing, as scum though!

This is Baboon speaking as town. And what she's saying is that scum often do exactly what she's doing here. They find something shiny -- stealing someone's idea? -- and latch on without ever evaluating the "actual scum motivation." So, now with this post, we got Baboon (or Mara, same shit) telling us how she plays as scum and how she plays as town. Town means looking for scum motivations, not just the shiny surface-level behaviors. Scum means finding a shiny surface-level behavior, or in this case, misrepresentation (since I didn't even see her idea before using it), latching on, and disregarding whether the shiny object has any scum motivation underneath.

So please, F-16, Tammy, 5-Off, Cutty, fellow townies whoever you are, seriously interrogate Baboon's thought process. Is Baboon latching onto something shiny? Or is Baboon looking for actual scum motivation? And if you find yourself leaning towards the former of these options, for the love of God, do something about it. Please.

[5-Off]

Seriously don't respond. I'm already annoyed with you and all you will do is annoy me further and I'd rather be able to work with your hydra.

Ugh.

this is tammy or Falcon?

I'd looooooove for you to call this is non town tammy tone.

This is non-town tammy tone.

Was this a joke? Why did you drop that and not pursue it anymore?

I have already said that this was a joke.

[FourTrouble]

Also waiting for people to realize that FT asked us to sign our posts, because he couldn't figure out who was posting when, and what but then, when F-16 talked to him about Cephrir, he was able to say that he was focusing on

my

posts and [/i]my[/i] reasons and focusing more on me, and able to realize that, even though he didn't know who was posting what to begin with.

Thanks for reminding me about this.
FT?

There were a few posts where I could tell and some where I couldn't. But that's beside the point. I started focusing on Mara after Ceph started signing his posts.

[FourTrouble]

Initially, I cast my finger at Baboon because of Ceph's post in the Intern PM, which reminded me of the kinda manipulative posts that F-16 was talking about. That was a very weak read, though. I didn't vote them until recently. And the vote -- the stronger read -- is based on Mara's posts, after Ceph started signing.

[Baboon Pride]

I actually still haven't been consistently signing.

Also, I'm not playing this game today because reasons.

-Ceph

[5-Off]

5-off has stated multiple times that this is not a gambit, so that means either he's town and telling the truth or he himself is scum. Either way, there IS scum in the hood.

PEDIT: I'm more confused ^_^ and this is probably going nowhere anyway but I want to pursue it because

Just keep in mind that my pm specifically stated that there are "rumors" of scum being in the PM. I don't know why the mod would drop the info at all if it wasn't true though, unless he's just being a bastard.

[5-Off]

Seriously don't respond. I'm already annoyed with you and all you will do is annoy me further and I'd rather be able to work with your hydra.

Ugh.

this is tammy or Falcon?

I'd looooooove for you to call this is non town tammy tone.

This is non-town tammy tone.

Was this a joke? Why did you drop that and not pursue it anymore?

5-off has stated multiple times that this is not a gambit, so that means either he's town and telling the truth or he himself is scum. Either way, there IS scum in the hood.

PEDIT: I'm more confused ^_^ and this is probably going nowhere anyway but I want to pursue it because

[5-Off]

Nashville, what about Bork and Ika are specifically town to you?

Answer this please, in context of what you believed at that time.

[5-Off]

I really, really hate my quote button. :/

[Baboon Pride]

Butshe's just running with it as far as she can.

I'm not even using that reason to push you, anymore. I havn't been for a while, I was just stating what I thought at that time, while saying why I have zero reason to try and interact with you and my scum-read has gone beyond "plagarism". That's the only point you're harping on when I've given a couple others

like

timing of your activity

and

your ability to tell the difference between us when it's convienent

[Baboon Pride]

also

pushing easy targets was also a reason

and, I'm still convinced you wouldn't have even moved to me if I showed no intention of backing off

[Baboon Pride]

*if I showed intention of backing off

[Baboon Pride]

Also, Ceph and I are/were kinda laughing because we both think you're kinda digging yourself deeper with how you're trying to appease people, and how you're unwilling to step on people toes unless someone steps on yours first.

I also don't weave stories, nearly everyone knows everything that comes out of my mouth is pretty much true regardless of my alignment, and I actually tag on reasons I think are scummy, even as scum