Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[Cutty Shark]

I didn't misrepresent a thing.

Borf

could quite easily have thought about the merits and drawbacks of massclaim himself and given his opinion, instead he asks CTD to do the intellectual legwork for him.

Lol at the two independent misreadings of my name 2 years apart

I have no idea how I remembered that

-b

[The Fonz]

And you left the vote on him after he flaked, and it's still there. That's weird. If you were trying to recruit other people to wagon him, I'd have had fewer concerns.

I mean, at the moment, I don't actually see what you think is scummy about Flub's entry, (and it is not like FT's at all). To be clear, I just don't understand at all what Flub was trying to accuse you of in that post - it doesn't make any sense to me - so it's hard for me to glean anything from it in terms of town/scum mindset other than that he's minimally willing to challenge people from the get-go.

I'm pretty sure we've both outlined what we thought was scummy about it, but the gist of it was that he clearly read the thread (as he referenced something from the middle), picked out something objectively benign, made a really weak baiting post about it, and ignored everything else.

And it's both 1) That is scummy and 2) I don't see somewhere I'd rather be. My vote would be there if it did.

I mean you're acting like we knew that we'd get absolutely no feedback from his slot from the vote and he'd continue to lurk.

-b

I mean, no, I am acting like your vote is literally still there close to two full days after he has requested replacement. And describing your post as 'objectively benign' is strange, because for whatever reason, he subjectively thought it was scummy - I think - which is what matters. Again, I don't actually understand what he was saying. Do you?

[The Fonz]

LOL - Because 'Borfjerkin' scans better than 'Borkjerkfin'. Every time I type out your full name, I have to think about what order the consonants are in. True story.

[gossamer wings]

Just re-read half the game (up to page 13). Reading the rest now.

@ FT, I'm townreading Baboon because Mara's conviction feels genuine. Tammy's also played quite a few games with Mara and has her as town based on meta. She also liked Post 301 as something Mara is unlikely to post as scum. Post 311 is another reason I'm townreading Baboon. If they are scum, it makes little sense for them to limit their mislynch options within the neighborhood. Here are two games with scum-Mara for comparison. I played in the second one and Tammy played in both. From what I remember from the one I played in, she doesn't have the same conviction and certainty when she is making pushes as scum. Compare with NY 169 where she spent quite a bit of time pushing me when we were both town and it came across as very genuine. I also feel that Mara often hides her real reasons and gives up surface level reasoning so she doesn't truly give away how she reads people. Also, what about Honeybee's Post 308 resonated?

@ Baboon, 5-Off isn't newb scum. New to mafiascum maybe, but he's played plenty of mafia offsite and has a reasonably developed scumgame.

@ Lissa, can you explain your townread on Baboon and scumread on FT?

@ Cutty, I agree with your point on IHNC in Post 274 and I lean slight town on it. I think it was ika who posted it but I'm still wary of townreading a hydra with Beast for it. If he is scum, he can certainly drop fake towntells. In Mafia with the Quickness, Beast used his neighborhood as a hydra QT with Marquis and was scum then, so I wouldn't put it past him to drop a fake towntell.

~ F-16

[Cutty Shark]

I am acting like your vote is literally still there close to two full days after he has requested replacement.

Yep.

And describing your post as 'objectively benign' is strange, because for whatever reason, he subjectively thought it was scummy - I think - which is what matters. Again, I don't actually understand what he was saying. Do you?

He was saying I slipped about something and that slip was, apparently, alignment indicative.

If you can think of a thing that actually fits that description in that instance then I'll withdraw the 'objectively benign' point.

-b

[The Fonz]

My point is that interpreting something in a really weird way isn't necessarily scummy. It's at least as likely that he genuinely held a weird belief that your post was scummy, than that he didn't, but was scum and thought there was some benefit in expressing said weird belief anyway.

That said, it still might well have been enough to vote on on page 2. Keeping it 'til page 27 though?

[FourTrouble]

F-16, what're your thoughts on the specific points I've brought up about Baboon?

[gossamer wings]

I do agree on this though with 4, he seems to be fidigeting on who is scum in neighborhood.VOTE: trouble

How is he fidgeting? He said Baboon is scum and has been consistent with that read so far.

adding on, if 4 is town i would look at baboon next for the scum in the hood.

Why?

i will add in that many of his post seem to be appeasing others to try to get them to vote people.

Which posts have been appeasing? And why is it scummy of him to get people to vote for his scumreads?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

F-16, what're your thoughts on the specific points I've brought up about Baboon?

I was addressing your concerns in general. Is there a specific post you want me to respond to?
~ F-16

[Anatole Kuragin]

damn, f-16 dropping bombs

I thought you were town reading four trouble?

I never liked the case on him - the only person I have a solid townread on is you.

(sorry, I'm mostly VLA on the weekends)

[gossamer wings]

@ IHNC, what between these two posts made you change your mind?

i gots no creativity - voting fourtrouble because he "is trying to appease people to vote who he want" and his reads seem "odd." Are you a detective dude?

I have POED it to be baboon or 4T as the scum in the hood, right now I'm leaning 4T. If one flips town, the other is scum IMO.

Okay, that reasoning makes sense, so long as we agree that I screw with peoples heads regardless of my affiliation. xD

I want this explained. vote 5-off. I was reading though and on par with ant.

I feel like their fight is TvT but if its SvT i would lean baboon.

First, you seem to imply that one of them

has

to be scum with a lean on FT. Then you switch to it being a TvT and

if

there is a scum, it is Baboon.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

F-16 You think FT's town?

What points do you not like?

I haven't nailed down a read yet but I think he's probably town. I don't agree with anyone's reasoning for voting him so far. Going over your case in Post 298:

1) FT hasn't played a lot of games on mafiascum and I doubt he would know that ika/Beast are easy targets. You got mislynched in Tales so he probably wouldn't see you as a difficult lynch although he might see Ceph as one. He also backed off once he thought that IHNC weren't as competent as he thought they were.

2) FT tends to OMGUS more as town than scum. As town, he tends to think that his attackers are scum or that something is wrong with them because he knows they are wrong. He is a vocal about his thoughts that OMGUS is more likely to come from town. I don't think he would try to "hide" it.

3) Why is demanding that people work with you more townish than scummy? I feel it depends more on playstyle than affiliation. Where have you "demanded" that people work with you anyways? Why is "demanding" proactive and "asking" reactive?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

(for some reason, I always assume players in hydras are good, which isn't always the case).

Why?

F-16, you might have a point about Baboon. I've been focusing more on Mara's posts than Ceph. Ceph is taking more of a backseat, which I suppose could be a town-tell, relative to other games. Still, their analysis is so shitty, hard to believe competent scum would be so bad as town.

What do you think of my point that Mara often hides her real reasoning for her pushes? Also, I think Ceph strongly prefers scum to town and his scumgame is more developed and articulate.

This is dead on. Just skimming through that game, huge difference in Mara's play here.

What are those differences? Also, did you skim through the game links that I posted?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Also, reason why my vote stayed: throwing out a three-person scumlist, without any effort to prioritise between them,

Why is this scummy? His playstyle differs from yours and he tends to hunt scumteams rather than individual scum.

having to be prodded into giving his reasons for his scumlist,

There are plenty of players who never provide cases or reasons for their reads and in my experience, the ones that tend to provide lots of reasoning as town also provide lots of reasoning as scum. He was also trying to sort me to see if I agreed with his reads and why. Why is this alignment indicative?

and asking Baboon to explain something that he'd clearly worded in such a way as to imply that discussion of it would be anti-town.

Which post are you referring to here?

Oh, and the whole posting to whine about someone who hadn't been online (moi) not answering his question, and flagging up his 'paranoia' - which comes across to me as consciously trying to signal 'town.'

We discussed the first part. The second is decent enough but I've seen town express paranoia as well.

Also, like, no consideration of what the actual town motive or potential scum motive for deciding to stick on him rather than wagon a newbie on page two might be, so it looks like an excuse, not a reason.

I read your MD article on why wagoning newbies early on is bad for the game. I doubt FT has and I wouldn't expect him to draw the same conclusions that you did. Although I don't follow his reasoning there either.

~ F-16

[I have no creativity]

I only glanced so im going to cut through shit so LITEN UP:

Lets assume TvT fight.
Lets assume scum doesnt post in it.

Know who it incrimminates in this if it is tvt?

VOTE: Anatole Kuragin

look at his progression of him trying to harp it further and furhter that baboon is scum. if it is indeed TvT all hes doing is adding fuel to the flames.

this is actualy who beast suspected who is scum. i asked him to elaborate on it but it left me confused. im not sure if i can quote QT notes we have so i am just asking him to post what he thinks so i dont buther it.

also fonz is still scummy, a lot of his post seem passive

[gossamer wings]

Why are

assuming

that the fight is TvT rather than figuring it out? Can you answer my questions in Post 657 and Post 660?

~ F-16

[I have no creativity]

I do agree on this though with 4, he seems to be fidigeting on who is scum in neighborhood.VOTE: trouble

How is he fidgeting? He said Baboon is scum and has been consistent with that read so far.

TBh i dont recall, i think it was somethign with him scum reading me

adding on, if 4 is town i would look at baboon next for the scum in the hood.

Why?

this was under first premisis that its TvS.

i will add in that many of his post seem to be appeasing others to try to get them to vote people.

Which posts have been appeasing? And why is it scummy of him to get people to vote for his scumreads?

more of how hes doing it.

~ F-16

@ IHNC, what between these two posts made you change your mind?

i gots no creativity - voting fourtrouble because he "is trying to appease people to vote who he want" and his reads seem "odd." Are you a detective dude?

I have POED it to be baboon or 4T as the scum in the hood, right now I'm leaning 4T. If one flips town, the other is scum IMO.

Okay, that reasoning makes sense, so long as we agree that I screw with peoples heads regardless of my affiliation. xD

I want this explained. vote 5-off. I was reading though and on par with ant.

I feel like their fight is TvT but if its SvT i would lean baboon.

First, you seem to imply that one of them

has

to be scum with a lean on FT. Then you switch to it being a TvT and

if

there is a scum, it is Baboon.

~ F-16

More of guts, this is most of my day 1 play where i just go what what just feels right.

there have been a lot of "if this, if that" things like:

TvT
Scum not posting in hood
why must we lynch from the hood
ect

on basic level i jsut go with what i had atm. when i take into unknonwns or other ideas (TvT, scumnot posting) i rethink and see whats more plausable.

then taking into account what BC gave me (ant!scum) it would make sense for it to be TvT if hes scum.

makes sense?

[I have no creativity]

boled in the words on the first one

[gossamer wings]

Initially, I cast my finger at Baboon because of Ceph's post in the Intern PM, which reminded me of the kinda manipulative posts that F-16 was talking about. That was a very weak read, though. I didn't vote them until recently. And the vote -- the stronger read -- is based on Mara's posts, after Ceph started signing.

What did he say in the intern PM and which manipulative post in particular did it remind you of?

~ F-16

[Natirasha]

Vote Count 1.5

An impasse.

Nashville Dreams(0):

Honey bee(0):

Cutty Shark(0):

FourTrouble(3):

Lissa, The Fonz, Baboon Pride

5-Off(0):

AnatoleKuragin(1):

i have no creativity

The Fonz(1):

Honey bee

i have no creativity(0):

gossamer wings(1):

Nashville Dreams

Baboon Pride(2):

Anatole Kuragin, FourTrouble

Mr_Ree(0):

Flubbernugger(1):

Cutty Shark

Lissa(0):

Not Voting(4):

5-Off, Mr_Ree, Flubbernugget, gossamer wings

With thirteen alive, it is seven to lynch.

(expired on 2014-09-13 16:00:00)

[Cutty Shark]

Hey Fonz
Why would a scumread replacing out necessitate unvoting that scumread?

[The Fonz]

Hey Fonz
Why would a scumread replacing out necessitate unvoting that scumread?

It doesn't always. When your 'scumread' is based on as little as yours is, though...

[FourTrouble]

I'm townreading Baboon because Mara's conviction feels genuine. Tammy's also played quite a few games with Mara and has her as town based on meta. She also liked Post 301 as something Mara is unlikely to post as scum. Post 311 is another reason I'm townreading Baboon. If they are scum, it makes little sense for them to limit their mislynch options within the neighborhood. Here are two games with scum-Mara for comparison. I played in the second one and Tammy played in both. From what I remember from the one I played in, she doesn't have the same conviction and certainty when she is making pushes as scum. Compare with NY 169 where she spent quite a bit of time pushing me when we were both town and it came across as very genuine. I also feel that Mara often hides her real reasons and gives up surface level reasoning so she doesn't truly give away how she reads people. Also, what about Honeybee's Post 308 resonated?

re: Honey -- He agreed with me about Fonz and the neighborhood, and I could see what he was saying about 5-Off and Nashville. I was hoping to hear more from Honey but he's disappeared and that's not good.

re: 301 -- Why wouldn't scumMara post that?

re: 311 -- I disagree that scum wouldn't limit mislynches to the neighborhood. It would remove pressure on partners, so if you're confident you won't be lynched, you're making it very easy to kill town. We also don't know the ratio of town/scum, but the neighborhood might be a better ratio for the scum than the game itself.

re: Mara's scum meta -- I haven't read the two scum games yet. I might later but I'm terrible with meta analysis so I'm gonna just defer to you on this. What I noticed is that the games are from over a year ago, so even if they lacked certainty then, I don't think it's very conclusive evidence for their play in THIS game. Especially since that's a normal progression in developing one's scum game -- newer scum tend to lack certainty, then they overcompensate trying to fix that. So I don't think your meta analysis is applicable to this game.

re: Mara's town meta -- I started reading that town game but it's extremely long and, given how bad I am at meta, not the best use of my time. Are there any specific posts you can direct me to for your point (hiding reasoning and certainty)? If not, that's fine. I'll defer to you on this too.

F-16, what're your thoughts on the specific points I've brought up about Baboon?

I was addressing your concerns in general. Is there a specific post you want me to respond to?
~ F-16

The "certainty" point, in posts 531, 537, and 576. Your response seems to be, "Mara's certainty is genuine, plus she hides her reasoning as town." What is genuine about her certainty? Has she really put that much effort to get me lynched? Which posts are showing you genuine conviction? Also, do you think Mara is hiding her reasoning in this game? Or is her reasoning just very weak? Or are her stated reasons not her real reasons (i.e. they're "contrived" reasons)? Can you see what I'm getting at here? If someone hides their reasoning, how do you know the certainty is genuine? I'm very wary of calling certainty genuine unless it squares up with a thought process. The thought process doesn't even have to be THAT good but there needs to be one.

(for some reason, I always assume players in hydras are good, which isn't always the case).

Why?

F-16, you might have a point about Baboon. I've been focusing more on Mara's posts than Ceph. Ceph is taking more of a backseat, which I suppose could be a town-tell, relative to other games. Still, their analysis is so shitty, hard to believe competent scum would be so bad as town.

What do you think of my point that Mara often hides her real reasoning for her pushes? Also, I think Ceph strongly prefers scum to town and his scumgame is more developed and articulate.

This is dead on. Just skimming through that game, huge difference in Mara's play here.

What are those differences? Also, did you skim through the game links that I posted?

re: hydras -- I have no idea. I just realized it this game, but all the hydras I've played with have had at least one strong player.

re: Mara -- I commented on this briefly above but to go further into it, I don't see Mara hiding her reasoning here. She provided reasons. The problem was the lack of depth to those reasons, which made me think they were fake. If you're saying she's town but still articulating false reasons for suspecting me, that's strange. How do you distinguish between fake reasons from town and fake reasons from scum?

re: Timeshift -- I made an error when skimming that game. I just took a look at Mara's posts but it turns out Mara was in a hydra, and I was only seeing her posts that were a mistake and the ones from after she replaced in.

Initially, I cast my finger at Baboon because of Ceph's post in the Intern PM, which reminded me of the kinda manipulative posts that F-16 was talking about. That was a very weak read, though. I didn't vote them until recently. And the vote -- the stronger read -- is based on Mara's posts, after Ceph started signing.

What did he say in the intern PM and which manipulative post in particular did it remind you of?

Can I quote from the Intern PM? Not sure what the rules are here but that'd be helpful to explain. There is a line of posts there that I felt manipulated by in the same way I felt during Tales of You. The posts are different in approach but similar in how I felt in response (my immediate reaction to them was, "Baboon is 100% town," followed by, "wait, this is so fake, can't believe I got tricked by that").

[gossamer wings]

@ FT, don't quote. Pretty sure that's not allowed. I was asking you to explain in your own words. I'll read the rest of your post in a bit.

~ F-16

[FourTrouble]

I figured it wasn't allowed, that's why I asked before doing it. I'll try to paraphrase, but it's gonna lose the tone of it, which is definitely relevant. He started with, "I want to clear something up. Are there any scum in here?" -- then followed that with, "I think we've caught scum on pg. 2 in Nashville. Nashville's continued reaction is really bad. I don't want to say anything because I want to see how they'll continue to react. But I'm telling you guys because I trust you." This is a bad paraphrase but it gets across the main ideas I was concerned with.

At first, I thought this guy was town. Then I realized a couple problems and felt like an idiot. If you're asking, "are there scum in here," you're not gonna start trusting people in the Intern PM when no one has even posted yet (at that time, only Lissa had posted besides Ceph). Nashville could have been IN THE PM, for all Ceph knew. The degree of trust made no sense. I didn't understand it, given an earlier post about possible scum in the PM. Suddenly, the whole, "we've caught scum already! yay!" was very manipulative, as was the, "guys, let's watch Nashville's continued reaction together, we're in this together" vibe. It felt like scum buddying up to the folks in the neighborhood.