[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Wake1]

I like this design because the ones pushing this wagon could very well be Scum, so that team would have to modify their behavior so it doesn't look like all three Ice Scum are on a Fire Scum's wagon. Especially if one of those three get flipped later. Town just might connect those dots.

[mith]

Revenge of the Vengeful

Nightless

4 Vengeful Goons
7 Vengeful Townies

(A role with the Vengeful modifier may, when lynched, kill another player.)

Other possible setups with EV:

5p: 2:3 (47%)
7p: 2:5 (51%), 3:4 (33%)
9p: 3:6 (51%)
11p: 4:7 (41%)
13p: 4:9 (52%), 5:8 (33%)
15p: 5:10 (44%)
17p: 5:12 (52%), 6:11 (36%)
19p: 6:13 (45%)
21p: 6:15 (52%), 7:14 (39%)
23p: 7:16 (46%)
25p: 7:18 (51%), 8:17 (40%)

[mith]

The Coalition, v2

3 Mafia Goons
12 Vanilla Town

Each day, rather than lynching a single player, a coalition of some of the remaining players is formed (see below). The non-coalition players are lynched, and their alignments revealed, simultaneously. The Mafia then may kill one living player as normal.

Day 1: 15->11 (4 lynched)
Day 2: 10->7 (3 lynched)
Day 3: 6->4 (2 lynched)
Day 4: 3->2 (1 lynched)

3:12 is 40%. 2:8 (starting from Day 2) is 44%.

[Jingle]

Town Macho Cop
Town Doctor
Town Tracker
Town 1-Shot PGO
Macho VT (1-Shot Fireproof)
Macho VT (1-Shot Iceproof)
Macho VT (1-Shot Fireproof; 1-Shot Iceproof)
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

This seems a bit too townsided IMO. There's a massive potential for missed kills, but even with zero missed kills, you've got three kills per day, max. Assuming they never hit a fire scum that is an earliest possible win on D6, which is very improbable. With a cop, the game lasting that long is unacceptable. At the very least I'd make the scumteams 4 members, possibly turning the mafia cops into rolecops.

Also, does the cop return Town/Not Town or Town/Fire Mafia/Ice Mafia?

[LlamaFluff]

Town Macho Cop
Town Doctor
Town Tracker
Town 1-Shot PGO
Macho VT (1-Shot Fireproof)
Macho VT (1-Shot Iceproof)
Macho VT (1-Shot Fireproof; 1-Shot Iceproof)
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

Massclaim and you have way too many confirmed town running around. Lets say D1 is VT lynch and N1 two VT die... D2 massclaim is over a third of the game in 1v1 or clear.

Guess a better question is what type of modification are you trying to put on Fire and Ice. If its just "make it bigger" that probably isn't needed.

[Wake1]

I see. Maybe I should post it this way, and then try fitting in Town PRs slowly until it's balanced enough.

Town Macho Cop
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

[Wake1]

OR:

Town Fire Cop (1-Shot Fireproof)
Town Ice Cop (1-Shot Iceproof)
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

*Fire Cop can only get a 'Guilty' on Fire Scum. Ice Cop can only get a 'Guilty' on Ice Scum.
*For example if the Town Ice Cop investigates Town or Fire Scum, a result of 'Innocent' will be given.
*Just now added 1-Shot elemental BP to each Town Cop. This would give the Cops some survivability, and make it easier for Scum to lie and fakeclaim being a Town Cop.

[Cheery Dog]

On that lastest version
One of the town cops claims, and you go follow the cop.

After that team has been eliminated, the other cop claims.

[Cheery Dog]

I assume you meant to have the macho modifer in it still

But Llamafluff's last line in 7229 is very valid.

[Wake1]

I'd have them 'Macho.'

I'll review his 7229 later.

[Wake1]

Guess a better question is what type of modification are you trying to put on Fire and Ice. If its just "make it bigger" that probably isn't needed.

That's a fair question, and I'll answer it as best as I can, Llama.

The answer to that question comes in at least three parts.

1) I want it to be large enough to accommodate two 3-player Scum teams.

2) The dynamic where Fire/Ice can't NK each other, and NKs turn into 'Guilties" is a must. Both Scum must have Daytalk. If they have Daytalk, I can shorten the Night phases.

3) A far more mental, thought-provoking game. By making it so that if both Scummers target the same target, causing them to cancel one another out, it gives the Town more time. I've witnessed this. It also makes both Scum teams really think, because if someone claims Doc they'll be paranoid about the other team targeting the same perp. Just as well, making it so that they casn't kill each other... instead turning those NKs on Scum into 'Guilties'... makes for a deliciously-complex game where Scum has to work really, really hard to appear Townish and innocent. The blocked NKs also gives Town more time to Scumhunt and notice stuff, too.

If I can balance this without needing to use a Cop, I would love that.

If I can make the game balanced, by sacrificing power in favor of more thinking and Scumhunting, that would be optimal.

What do you think of turning two Goons into Mafia Traitors? One fire, one ice.

[Jingle]

I'd suggest going power light, and switching the cop to a tracker or similar role. Possibly dropping it to 12-3-3. If you decide you want heavy PR's, I think you're much better served making this a closed or semi-open (something like between 0-3 BP townies, chosen at random) to prevent mass-claim shenanigans.

Revenge of the Vengeful

Nightless

4 Vengeful Goons
7 Vengeful Townies

(A role with the Vengeful modifier may, when lynched, kill another player.)

Other possible setups with EV:

5p: 2:3 (47%)
7p: 2:5 (51%), 3:4 (33%)
9p: 3:6 (51%)
11p: 4:7 (41%)
13p: 4:9 (52%), 5:8 (33%)
15p: 5:10 (44%)
17p: 5:12 (52%), 6:11 (36%)
19p: 6:13 (45%)
21p: 6:15 (52%), 7:14 (39%)
23p: 7:16 (46%)
25p: 7:18 (51%), 8:17 (40%)

This sounds crazy fun and seems to get around the boring part of Nightless games. (They take forever after a while.) I'd suggest that on a forum this would benefit from shorter than average deadlines.

The Coalition, v2

3 Mafia Goons
12 Vanilla Town

Each day, rather than lynching a single player, a coalition of some of the remaining players is formed (see below). The non-coalition players are lynched, and their alignments revealed, simultaneously. The Mafia then may kill one living player as normal.

Day 1: 15->11 (4 lynched)
Day 2: 10->7 (3 lynched)
Day 3: 6->4 (2 lynched)
Day 4: 3->2 (1 lynched)

3:12 is 40%. 2:8 (starting from Day 2) is 44%.

I want to play this. This looks awesome.

[AngryPidgeon]

Happy Birthday Jingle ^^

[Jingle]

Shh. It's a secret. Run Mith's setup for me as a present.

Also, thanks AP.

[Wake1]

Does this look game-ready?

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

[BBmolla]

I'd play that face to face

I'd get too bored on the forum

[mith]

Seems like the Mafia groups will figure each other out too quickly for that size of setup. Which I guess could be interesting in its own right? But I would expect town to win most games. I'd get rid of the Mafia Cops.

[Wake1]

I'd play that face to face

I'd get too bored on the forum

Really? I figured if I made the player count smaller it'd up Scum's chances of winning.

You've got me thinking more on this...

Seems like the Mafia groups will figure each other out too quickly for that size of setup. Which I guess could be interesting in its own right? But I would expect town to win most games. I'd get rid of the Mafia Cops.

You, too.

I figured the current Setup was tilted towards Scum winning. Hm...

What... Hm. What do you reckon would happen if the current Setup was changed to this:

- x2 VTs
+ x2 Mafia Traitors (One

Ice

, One

Fire

)

I can just imagine the subtle, mental dynamics at play here. If Ice Scum NK-target Ice Traitor, they recruit instead. Same with Fire.

And... and then if Fire decides to to try to hit their Traitor instead of killing Town or suspected Ice, Town gets more people to sort through stuff, and now Ice has four targets to wind up attempting to NK, AND Cop.

Mm. MmHM. Interesting. Very subtle. I can just imagine both rival Traitors doing what they can to attract the attention of their teammates without getting caught. And if Town or Scum notice it, they'll jump on it, possibly bagging two or more Scum. I remember being a Mafia Traitor and getting modkilled 9Staff knows it was an accident, iirc), and so I flipped Scum, and I had gotten Varsoon's attention the Night before to recruit me, so after I flipped they scoured my ISO and found it, getting Varsoon lynched, too. I can see one or two instanxces of that happening in this game, which would be really neat.

Scum would definitely have Daytalk for really coordinated play versus both factions.

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Iced Mafia Traitor
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Traitor
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

And if that slightly puts it in Scum's favor, we can either leave it as is, or tech in a Macho Watcher or some other weak PR, too.

This looks pretty fun.

[Wake1]

Eh, is that too Scum-sided?

I really want to see two Scum teams going at it hard while doing what they can to stay latent, while not getting fingered as Scum. Town would have a unique challenge of figuring out if the Scumhunting is from a Town view, or if it's to kill the enemy Scum.

Maybe a Town Macho Vigilante is in order?

[mith]

Revenge of the Vengeful, LyLo Variant

Nightless

3 Vengeful Goons
10 Vengeful Townies

The Mafia wins as soon as they comprise 50% of the town; if a Townie has just been lynched, they do not get a Vengekill.

Other possible setups with EV:

7p: 2:5 (38%)
9p: 2:7 (52%)
11p: 3:8 (38%)
13p: 3:10 (48%)
15p: 4:11 (37%)
17p: 4:13 (45%)
19p: 5:14 (36%)
21p: 5:16 (43%)
23p: 5:18 (48%)
25p: 6:19 (41%)

[mith]

I am also working on a spreadsheet to get online at some point. The list of variants included so far, in order from scum-friendly to town-friendly:

Vanilla
Blind Rage Odd Mafia Count
Paired Lovers Odd - All but one Mafia is part of a Lover pair. 3:10 (42%) and 5:17 (42%) are good setups here (the latter having the added bonus of being an even player count).
"Vengescum" - Vengeful Goons vs. Vanilla Town; equivalent to Treestump. 2:8 (43%) and 3:10 (43%) are both reasonable setups for Micro/Mini.
RotV Lylo Variant
Nightless
Blind Rage Even
Paired Lovers Even - The Mafia consists entirely of Lover pairs. 2:3 (40%) and 2:5 (57%) are both reasonable Micro counts (the latter just being the non-nightless version of Lovers Mafia); 4:9 (43%) is the Mini setup, and 6:14 (40%) is solid as well.
Revenge of the Vengeful - Town gets a huge benefit from being able to Vengekill at 50-50.

The Bus Stop variants don't really fit on this scale, due to their wacky probability curves; for close to even counts, town is much better off (even than Revenge of the Vengeful), but then the probability drops as townies are added.

Note that only odd player counts are considered for Vanilla, Blind Rage, and the RotV variants; the town is better off no-lynching to restore parity if they start with an even count. In the others, the town improve their chances by lynching (in Paired Lovers, you are less likely to lynch successfully at an even count, but when you do it gets you to an odd count, and for 3+ Mafia this is a net benefit).

[BBmolla]

Dying Docs

3 Mafia Goons
10 Vengedocs (Protect a player the night after their lynch)

Is there a way to find out the EV for this mith ^

[Bicephalous Bob]

I think venge-elite-bodyguards would be more balanced and interesting, since scum don't really have to fear for a succesful doc protect in that setup

[BBmolla]

You might as well call them venge-elite-docs, they're technically already dead so they can't take the bullet.

[Cabd]

Venge-PGO-izers