The Wire Season 1 Mafia: Baltimore Police and Omar Victory!

[BBmolla]

Do you think it was genuine thinking or logic used to get a mislynch

[zMuffinMan]

genuine

that and the delving into vezok's ISO to look for inconsistencies

[mastin2]

Finally here. I'm not sure how much I'll get done right now. To be perfectly honest...my willpower for this game is...well, rather weak. There's kinda just the instinctive urge to let the lynch go through on whoever, get nightkilled, and let the survivors decide the fate of the game. Objectively, I KNOW that's a terrible, terrible, absolutely

horrible

attitude to take towards the game. So obviously I can't do it. But it's what I feel like doing. :/

So I'm doing what I can to muster my willpower to fight. To analyze through the apathy. Frankly, if I was in the mindset I SHOULD be in, I'd be in scumhunting god mode. I feel an obligation this game to try. I lack the ability to get there, but I should try to get as much as I possibly can to get reasonably close to that gamebreaking I should have done. In short, my mind's not here in the game, and the urge to give up is strong, but I'm going to do everything in my power to not give up and to do productive stuff.

Unvote

I don't like how the other scum nominee is on the same wagon as me. I was torn between MC and AD but I'm starting to feel uncomfortable lynching AD for the time being. He's not off the hook yet though.

I do like this sentiment, by the way.

do you actually think ad is more likely town than despfish?

From an

actions

standpoint, vaguely, yes. The track

does

work out in his favor, EVEN IF there are any number of factors that could cause it to not be as strong as it could be.

From a play standpoint, no, not really, but neither does it go the other way. They're both about equally as suspicious overall.

i don't really think this is desp's scum game, mastin

And yet, I have the opposite feeling. :/ I mean, it's just an overall feeling, but when I think of Desp, I think of his town self as doing stuff even if he's not seen as looking good for doing it, and his scum self as looking good, but not actually ending up doing much. I'm no Desp expert, admittedly, and that description SUCKS and isn't a truly accurate reflection of my feelings, but I can't help that I feel that way about him.

mastin can me and you solve this game? I'd actually like to win. Shoot questions at me and stuff. Anyone else is welcome to join us obv.

Problem is, I

should

have a ton of questions.
I

should

have a bunch of things to ask and talk about.

...But I DON'T. :/

[BBmolla]

mastin desp's stuff on vezok, legit or fabricated go

[mastin2]

Spoiler: @mastin

for the past... month or so, i guess, but mostly for the past week, i've just had a complete lack of motivation for doing anything even slightly mafia-related. i come onto the site thinking, "OK, today is the day i do stuff in games i'm in!" and then open the game threads and just feel the energy draining out of me. i don't know what exactly it is, because it's not like the playerlists are making it unfun and i just, in general, don't sign up to games i don't think will be fun in some way, but i'm feeling really, really burnt out lately. i just don't really give a shit about posting in mafia games. i think part of it, arrogant as it may sound, is that i'm not finding it as challenging as i used to. i don't struggle to avoid being lynched, if i want my scum reads lynched i will get them lynched, and in general i'm more accurate than not and i'm about as decent as any other player when it comes to finding scum, so i can't really recall any games where my reads have been so far off base that i felt i was playing badly.

i mean, in recent memory (since returning from hiatus last year) i've been lynched twice, i think? once as town in a mylo situation where nacho and i were bumping heads due to faulty speculation and not really considering all the evidence properly, and once as scum where i was intentionally playing like a lurksack in an attempt to emulate certain aspects of my town play to fuck with meta players, which eventually backfired when i misstepped. apart from that, town or scum, i've had no real difficulty avoiding being lynched. the closest i ever came to being lynched was that paranoia game that you killed me N1, but even then i successfully derailed the wagon on myself onto a scum player, and my reads were decent (including calling greyice for third party, though he wasn't _exactly_ a lyncher, he was just third party temporarily helping scum). i also think the issue is further compacted when i play with certain players; e.g. when i play with you and i'm town, i find it hard to keep up motivation levels because i know you'll eventually town read me regardless of your alignment which brings out a lot of bad habits in my play. i am the type of person who will procrastinate with stuff if i think i can get away with it, and i am the type of person to get lazy if i have no immediate goal to work towards. and when the goal of being town enough that i'm not going to be lynched has been achieved, i tend to lose focus in games and not give as much of a shit, i think.

another part of it is that the way i've been approaching games lately has been deviating more and more from how i used to play the game, or at least that's what i think. not so much in playstyle, i guess (though i think my playstyle has had some minor and major changes in the past... year or so) but more with how i find scum. i dunno what it is, but i feel i used to be a lot more accurate in getting reads based on reading into motivations and thinking about stuff like that and i don't do that as much anymore. or at least i've noticed times where i look back at things that happened in a game and try to think about where i went wrong in certain reads and why i didn't see motivations for certain actions that, in hindsight, should have been really obvious. i've been reading over games a bit today and yesterday. some of my past games, some games i'm not in, some games that are ongoing. i was reading a newbie game where thor gave some endgame commentary with advice on how someone could have changed their play in the game to potentially turn what was a loss into a win. and the advice was basically, in simple terms, try to figure out who truly believes what they're saying. and this is something that i kinda try to do but don't really do as much anymore. which sucks because i kinda wanna get back to my roots and return to the style of scum hunting i used to employ. and this couple with my bad habit of slacking off when i think i can get away with it is making me feel a bit apathetic towards mafia lately. or at least this is as best an explanation for my current slump in motivation as i can think of.

anyway, how that all relates to here and this game is i've essentially decided to think about this game in simple terms. i am looking over stuff that's happened in this game and thinking about it in the most basic of basic ways: who looks like they believe what they're saying?

and so i'm looking back at certain things that despfish has said and thinking about it in this way and i don't really see them a scum. the vezok push, which i think i talked about at some point earlier in the game, is one of the primary things i'm thinking about here because i don't think that looked like scum ISOing a player and looking for holes in the claim (in the first place, what scum actually does that if they know a claim to be legitimate?) - i think that was a case of despfish truly believing they were on to something there. i'm looking at other stuff they're saying to, from simple stuff like "lol at anyone who thinks there's a chance i'm scum" and variants of this, which i know are not beyond the realm of possibility for scum players (and i know desp is probably capable of writing statements like that as scum) but the way it's coming across in this game looks like someone who believes what they're writing. comments about his flavour and how it relates to this game (including the avon VT stuff and the wallace traitor stuff) also look like they come from someone who really believes what they're writing. and there was one other thing i wanted to mention here but i forgot in the midst of writing this rambling.

on the other hand, you have AD, with his miller claim, which came from suggesting there was a cop in the setup multiple times and while i think initially he might have believed that the setup would have a cop (or investigative role similar to the cop, like a gunsmith), i don't really believe he believes what he's been writing about it. especially to the point of suggesting a town miller was put in as a counter for a scum cop. what i think was happening in this game is AD was crumbing miller because it was win/win for him. either there is a cop and he can point back to all those crumbs if he ever got investigated (crumbs that only started

after

everyone had posted late D2, because not everyone had posted by the end of D1) or there isn't one and no loss, he can just claim miller (and because site meta as it is now is something along the lines of "millers are town!" this works well for someone going for this angle). i also think his play in general comes across as someone who doesn't really believe anything he's writing. his pushes this game have had a lack of conviction. the only scum lynch he pushed this game was a traitor that it's unlikely the scum team knew was a traitor. he had minimal interactions with skot (essentially never mentioning him until the hammer on him after the watcher stuff + claim). after skot, it was basically "titus and/or muffin scum" and it doesn't really look like he actually cares about figuring anything out here. (also, looking back at the way he hammered titus is reminding me of the way he hammered aronis in kotor in that it felt really rushed)

so i'm kinda interested in what you actually think makes MC more likely scum than AD because i'm not really seeing it

also we have a little under the week until the deadline and i wanna hash things out with you sooner rather than later because i'm guessing you probably won't live to see tomorrow regardless of the outcome of today's lynch and this game is a graveyard at the moment

By the way, zMuff. If you're scum, you're a bastard for posting this. That kind of emotional manipulation is the sort of cheap trick on BROseidon-meltdown-levels of townning it up. (By which, I mean, any doubt I have about you being scum is gone [from 6%* to 0%], and if you were to actually BE scum, you should feel absolutely rotten that this is what caused it.)

*The townread atrophied.

Because I know EXACTLY what you're talking about, know EXACTLY how you feel. The extreme lack of motivation. No drive, in spite of saying "today, I do stuff!". (Except then, I end up...not.) Being drained. Burning out in spite of GREAT playerlists and awesome games. The fun is...much less than it used to be. Challenge as scum is nearly gone. I'm not good enough where the challenge as town is gone, but I still feel less motivated to do awesomely than I used to, as if I'm content with my skill level where it is. And I'm good at making myself obvtown, and when choosing to, getting a lynch on a name I prefer. And in part, I think it's because of the people I play with, and how...well, I surround myself with people who know me, mastin2, as being mastin2. In which, I mean...they just kinda have an acceptance of me, not pushing me. Players like you can read me.


As for desp vs. AD, I am not ignoring your input. I'm looking at it. I'm seriously considering it. I'm thinking about it, heavily. Just give me some time to think things over some more, and look at stuff.

[BBmolla]

Not to jump on the bandwagon, but my motivation has been dwindling lately. Mafia just doesn't have the spark it used to at the moment.

You know what fixes it?

Meetups.

I'm serious.

[mastin2]

Okay. I think I have a question, for the big four (plus Xisi).

zMuffinman:

Dan scum with Messiah town is your opinion.
But there should be two scum. Can you give your guess to the second with a short explanation why?

ActionDan:

Two scum, and cliffnote explanations for why.

BBMolla:

Same question. Not one scum. Not three scum. Two names, and why.

Messiah:

Same for you, Desp. It can't be just Dan. So name a second, and why.

Xisi:

You've been oddly quiet on your thoughts, here.


I realize this sucks and is really basic, but I AM trying.

[BBmolla]

AD + MC

But that's highly implausible.

Muffin is a possible third. But I can't read him.

idk

I take back the AD read. I think I'm only saying he's scum cause he's calling me scum. I had him as town before. His miller story checks out.

MC and Muffin I guess

Assuming Adrien is "confirmed town yada yada yada"

[mastin2]

Btw,

Unvote: Messiah Complex

.

mastin desp's stuff on vezok, legit or fabricated go

Not a dang clue.

The problem I have with the game is that there's GOT to be two scum. (Two scum and a traitor isn't even mini material [even given a 3p], yet alone, large. There can't be three scum unless Dan's one of them, since there were plenty of opportunities for him to be lynched and nothing materialized. Plus, setup seems unlikely for that.)

Yet assuming there's only one scum in Dan/Messiah...all the options kinda...suck.

[BBmolla]

Doesn't that mean muffin is scum

[BBmolla]

I figured if I was in 3 way LYLO with Muffin and all three seemed town, Muffin would be scum

[BBmolla]

I know that's generic, but seriously, if you're stumped do you really think it's not muffin stumping you

[mastin2]

Doesn't that mean muffin is scum

Objectively, yes.

Subjectively, for whatever reason, I can't help but think the answer's still the same as I've had throughout the entire game: no.

It's...difficult to explain.

You have play that makes you strongly town, and NKA by my memory has you as town as well.
Xisi has a claim that makes a fair amount of sense. (But absolutely abysmal play.)
Dan has

my own dang result

pointing to him being town. (But in contrast, a ton that can make him scum.)
Messiah is someone who has stuff that can make him town or scum, and I don't have the ability to differentiate between them anymore.

And there zMuffinman is. With a decent amount that would back up him potentially being scum. And nothing that can be used to well and truly call him town.
Except my very subjective stance that is inexplicable.

[mastin2]

Like.

What I kinda feel like doing.

Is saying screw it all, and voting Dan, and letting the cards sort themselves from there.

But again. I feel like, as confirmed town, I owe you more than that. :/

[BBmolla]

I'll be honest, even with what I'm saying, I don't really think it's Muffin.

I just think because I'm clueless it is.

I would be more comfortable lynching AD over Muffin tbh

[mastin2]

I would be more comfortable lynching AD over Muffin tbh

Same.

Honestly, I kinda sorta feel like Dan-Xisi, roles be damned.

[ActionDan]

Honestly, I kinda sorta feel like Dan-Xisi, roles be damned.

This would be the part where Slandar would laugh at you. audibly.

I don't mind dying today if I had assurances that Muffin would be next. And after that I would say it'd be tough to decide between Molla and MC.

However I'd first like to point out, Mastin, that you have got to be kidding yourself when you say that "there's a ton that makes AD scum [or any variant thereof when comparing to either muffin or MC]" and I'd challenge you to actually give, you know, substance to idle commentary like that, because I haven't been active since D1 so there really really can't be "a ton" of scummy things I could have possibly done, but if you want to say that I am not an active player, say it instead of something that isn't true and is basically at this point making you want to apparently throw the game because you want mental morphine.

Also @BBm

I'll be honest, even with what I'm saying, I don't really think it's Muffin. I just think because I'm clueless it is. I would be more comfortable lynching AD over Muffin tbh

The last bit there isn't something that I can easily see you even thinking at this point. Muffin = Bookitty = Person you thought was scum from mod error = lynch candidate at this stage where you are self-admittantly clueless. AD = miller claim = checks out = takes back scum read = starting to think this guy is town

!=> comfort for lynching AD over Muffin. You should be as uncomfortable as possible with the very idea of that until such time as when you aren't actually "clueless," if that's possible, from the statements above and the ones in this page.

[ActionDan]

Btw since it's going around. MC biting on to the doctor point of Vezok protecting someone he thought was scum. It quite clearly was a "genuine" find. It could have come from either town/scum considering that Vezok was town.

[TheAdrienC]

Prod dodge, honestly considering V/LA. I'm out of town for work and am posting this from a hotel room. I thought I could be active with me bringing my laptop, but I'm failing hard. Then again, I'm back home Friday night so maybe I can just stick through it.

[ToastyToast]

yayyy molla is back and it looks like V/LA's are mostly over. In other news ToastyToast is finally employed wooooo.

Vote Count #25

BBmolla

ActionDan

--Messiah Complex, zMuffinMan (L-2)

Messiah Complex

zMuffinMan

--Action Dan (L-3)

Xisiqomelir

mastin2

TheAdrienC

Not Voting: BBmolla, Xisiqomelir, theAdrienC, mastin2

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch! Day phase ends on September 14th, 12:30 PST

[BBmolla]

The last bit there isn't something that I can easily see you even thinking at this point. Muffin = Bookitty = Person you thought was scum from mod error = lynch candidate at this stage where you are self-admittantly clueless. AD = miller claim = checks out = takes back scum read = starting to think this guy is town

Muffin has done a bunch of appeals that I find townish cause I'm a pansy though

[Xisiqomelir]

VOTE: Messiah Complex

Desp at least is posting elsewhere on site.

[Xisiqomelir]

Not to jump on the bandwagon, but my motivation has been dwindling lately. Mafia just doesn't have the spark it used to at the moment.

You know what fixes it?

Meetups.

I'm serious.

Molla lets get wasted at Singapore Formula 1

[Xisiqomelir]

Okay. I think I have a question, for the big four (plus Xisi).

zMuffinman:

Dan scum with Messiah town is your opinion.
But there should be two scum. Can you give your guess to the second with a short explanation why?

ActionDan:

Two scum, and cliffnote explanations for why.

BBMolla:

Same question. Not one scum. Not three scum. Two names, and why.

Messiah:

Same for you, Desp. It can't be just Dan. So name a second, and why.

Xisi:

You've been oddly quiet on your thoughts, here.


I realize this sucks and is really basic, but I AM trying.

The only person I'm actually willing to call town for certain is Adrien. I cannot see how he'd be on a scumteam with SKOT the way he got him lynched.

I strongly believe Dan is not scum and I won't vote him. Also, you supposedly 50% cleared him yourself.

I'm still seeing Muffin as town off Bookitty read residuals.

I always think Molla is town, but I should re-read him as it is late in the game.

You I am still chary as all hell about. I've had negative feelings since D2, and there's still Gambler's Fallacy weighing on my mind, though I'm trying very very hard to be dispassionate and logical about it. I assume that an RB exists since Adrien disclosed it, and I'm disturbed that no one has pointed out that Pants could have been blocked instead of redirected N2.

Messiah I am willing to rope today. My question is hardly a searing brand of intensity, I don't see why the heads are avoiding it.

[ActionDan]

I assume that an RB exists since Adrien disclosed it, and I'm disturbed that no one has pointed out that Pants could have been blocked instead of redirected N2.

It's possible but when a Mafia team knows there is a 2nd kill, and have a redirector, that's swag $$$ in the making. And pants was so crumbing something D2.