[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[mith]

I could calculate that, sure. Maybe later tonight, I'm out of time right now.

[edit]I expect it will be much closer to Vanilla (21%) than Vengescum (43%).[/edit]

[mith]

Actually, a Vengecop setup might be interesting too (lynched player gets to investigate someone with the result revealed to everyone) - it'd be somewhat comparable to an all-Vengeful setup, with a trade off between having to spend a lynch on a revealed scum and clearing townies instead of killing them.

[Wake1]

How does this Setup look, guys?

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Iced Mafia Traitor
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Traitor
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

[mith]

Dying Docs

3 Mafia Goons
10 Vengedocs (Protect a player the night after their lynch)

Is there a way to find out the EV for this mith ^

Actually, the EV for this is

exactly

the same as Vanilla. The issue is that with an even count, you have worse lynch odds than with one less townie, and this outweighs the potential benefit of getting a second protection.

Consider:

1:2 - 1/3
1:3 - 1/4 (lynch mafia) + 3/4 * 1/3 * 1/3 (lynch town, protect town, 1:2) = 1/4 + 1/12 = 1/3

2:3 - 2/5*1/3 = 2/15 = 30/225
2:4 - 2/6*1/3 (lynch mafia, 1:3) + 4/6 * 1/5 * 2/15 (lynch town, protect town, 2:3) = 1/9 + 4/225 = 29/225

[mith]

If I've got my formulas right, a 3:10 Vengecop game has EV of 45%. It's actually slightly better (for the town) than Vengescum, slightly worse than RotV LyLo for lower player count (but overtakes it eventually).

[mith]

Actually, there are three different variants I can come up with, based on how the Venge-investigation happens:

1. Result is revealed before Night happens. (Mafia can then kill the target, so there is never a confirmed innocent during day unless the Mafia decide to leave one alive for some reason. 3:10 is 38%, and overall is somewhat worse than Vengescum.)
2. Result is revealed after Night happens. (Mafia

might

kill the target by chance. 3:10 is 44%, overall better than Vengescum.)
3. Result is revealed before Night happens

and that player is protected from the Mafia's kill for that night

, to ensure a confirmed townie always exists after a townie lynch. This is sort of a combo Vengecopdoc mechanic, and has the EV above. (I only calculated it by mistake, forgot the Mafia's chance of killing the target in 2.)

Dead Boy Detectives

3 Mafia Goons
10 Vengeful Cops (on being lynched, get one investigation, the result of which is revealed publicly at the start of the following day)

7p: 2:5 (35%)
9p: 2:7 (53%)
11p: 3:8 (31%)
13p: 3:10 (43%)
15p: 3:12 (54%), 4:11 (28%)
17p: 4:13 (37%)
19p: 4:15 (45%)
21p: 5:16 (32%)
23p: 5:18 (39%)
25p: 5:20 (45%)

Variant 3 is only 1-2% different for these... and I kinda like that it guarantees a confirmed innocent, especially since that confirmed innocent will likely be one of the more suspect players.

[LlamaFluff]

How does this Setup look, guys?

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Iced Mafia Traitor
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Traitor
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

You do realize fire and ice currently is: 8x VT, 1x Doctor, 2x Ice Goon, 2x Fire Goon

You are basically saying that adding: 3x Vanilla, 1x Macho Tracker balances the addition of two new scum for each faction.

Fire and Ice works well due to its simplicity of the multiball setup, but when you start adding more scum, you are going to need a lot more town (at current rate you would have needed about +5 VT instead of +2 and likely need to get rid of macho modifier.

[Wake1]

I am slightly confused. Some suggestions are that the Setup is Town-Sided, and others say it is Scum-sided. Of the Macho modifier is ridden it will be 'Follow the Tracker.'

May we start from here and work up, please?

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

[ika]

my argument is too many VTs. it will become too boring for many imo

make it a C++ variation type thing would probally be a better idea if you want large numbers

[Wake1]

my argument is too many VTs. it will become too boring for many imo

make it a C++ variation type thing would probally be a better idea if you want large numbers

I hear you, and that's one issue on the mind. C++ variation is confusing to me, and I'd rather keep it all as one set list..

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
Town Macho Ice Cop
Town Macho Fire Cop
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Roleblocker
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Roleblocker
Fire Mafia Goon

The Roleblockers would help take care of any claiming early on.

Do you know if we're allowed to use unique/original PRs in Open games?

[BBmolla]

Interesting. Thanks for taking it a step further.

[BBmolla]

I think in practice, vengecop would be a bit more townsided than percentages show, just due to town always picking scummiest players and forcing scum to kill them, leaving towniest players alive at the end.

[Wake1]

Interesting. Thanks for taking it a step further.

Thank you!

I like the thought of the dual roleblockers, because it really nails down any claiming nonsense. That, and those RB possibilities make it interesting. They wouldn't be able to RB each other either. That'd be kind cool if

Fire Mafia

RB'd

Ice Mafia

who tried to NK or Cop another member of

Fire Mafia

. Hm... Tactical...

Do you think I should leave it as is, or try to tech in some weaker PRs to make it more interesting?

What if instead of a Town Doctor were used, two elemental Docs were used instead? And/or add in elemental 1-Shot PGOs, too?

I'd like to make the game as duality-based as possible. Elemental counterparts.

[mith]

I think in practice, vengecop would be a bit more townsided than percentages show, just due to town always picking scummiest players and forcing scum to kill them, leaving towniest players alive at the end.

Agreed... It does add an interesting layer though, in that the scummy players are the ones getting to investigate, and possibly confirming as innocent players who

they

thought were scummy. Often the players who get lynched are under fire because their suspicions don't align with groupthink.

Vengewatch might be an interesting one too, and closer to what you were trying for with Vengedoc.

[mith]

3:10 Vengewatch is 30%... Still closer to Vanilla, but not a bad option. 2:7 is 41%, 2:9 is 51%.

[TierShift]

mith, all of your setups seem to aim towards a ~40% town EV. I know that EV theoretically should be below 50%, but do you think that holds true?

[ika]

Interesting. Thanks for taking it a step further.

Thank you!

I like the thought of the dual roleblockers, because it really nails down any claiming nonsense. That, and those RB possibilities make it interesting. They wouldn't be able to RB each other either. That'd be kind cool if

Fire Mafia

RB'd

Ice Mafia

who tried to NK or Cop another member of

Fire Mafia

. Hm... Tactical...

Do you think I should leave it as is, or try to tech in some weaker PRs to make it more interesting?

What if instead of a Town Doctor were used, two elemental Docs were used instead? And/or add in elemental 1-Shot PGOs, too?

I'd like to make the game as duality-based as possible. Elemental counterparts.

theres a flaw in the rb/cop claimers idea your trying to set

the 2 town cops can ust claim cop w/o claiming who they find. it essensaly makes more wifom games. plus its entirely negated by just outright killing them but you have 2 cops who dont have claimed who they find so both teams are going to most likely do coin flips on who to kill and could just waste their time.

they could argubly both RB one kill other, but it still leads to same thing of they are still around

[Wake1]

Hm...

...hm.

Crud.

I'll nix the two Cops for now.

Thank you, ika and everyone. You've been really helpful in grinding this down and polishing it up.

[mith]

3:10 Vengevig (that is, X Mafia Goons vs. Y Vengeful Townies) has some nice options:

9p: 3:6 (40%)
10p: 3:7 (46%)
11p: 3:8 (47%)
12p: 3:9 (51%), 4:8 (35%)
13p: 4:9 (36%)

Higher than Nightless for all but the last one; Nightless does eventually overtake it, but it gets that LyLo benefit that made RotV so strong.

[Wake1]

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Roleblocker
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Roleblocker
Fire Mafia Goon

- x2 VTs
+ x2 Macho Elemental 1-Shot BP VTs? (One 1-Shot Iceproof, one 1-Shot Fireproof) (Macho fixes Doc protection)

[mith]

TierShift, I think EV of 50% (or higher) is perfectly fine... I aim for slightly lower because I find it makes it a more interesting game if the town is at a slight disadvantage, so that they have to overcome it with good scumhunting.

Note that for Vanilla itself, town has tended to do worse than expected, but for others (Nightless) town has done just fine with <50% EV (presumably because of the inability of scum to eliminate strong town players). We ought to mine some stats on this, really.

[BBmolla]

Interesting. Thanks for taking it a step further.

Thank you!

I like the thought of the dual roleblockers, because it really nails down any claiming nonsense. That, and those RB possibilities make it interesting. They wouldn't be able to RB each other either. That'd be kind cool if

Fire Mafia

RB'd

Ice Mafia

who tried to NK or Cop another member of

Fire Mafia

. Hm... Tactical...

Do you think I should leave it as is, or try to tech in some weaker PRs to make it more interesting?

What if instead of a Town Doctor were used, two elemental Docs were used instead? And/or add in elemental 1-Shot PGOs, too?

I'd like to make the game as duality-based as possible. Elemental counterparts.

I was talking to mith actually <_<'

[BBmolla]

I don't understand what your goal is with the setup Wake, why not just play fire and ice.

[Wake1]

I don't understand what your goal is with the setup Wake, why not just play fire and ice.

Because that is different than the very dynamic and interesting game I am currently modding offsite.

These ideas are far different than one another.

[BBmolla]

What ideas do you want implemented in this setup in particular