Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[fferyllt]

hi bork! Do you guys have a reads list somewhere? I'm sure I'll run into it eventually but, you know - 65 pages.

I've skimmed gossamer wing's iso. I'd weigh up f-16's read pretty heavily in figuring out four trouble, and I'm seeing tons of reaching out and working together going on.

Doubt I'll want to vote there.

[Nashville Dreams]

Spoiler: Honeybee posts

Ok hi.
The neighborhood thing I am currently agreeing with FT that this isn't the most reliable information. Not saying that there isn't scum in the neighborhood (a size of 4 there's a good chance for it), but considering how the neighbor list is unknown and there very well may be more than just one scum in the neighborhood, I'm not going to pay too much attention to it because I'm not a part of it.

As for scum reads, I am looking at the fonz 5 off and ND.
-Fonz– I totally agree with ft that not voting lissa was bad. Hesitance to vote always is a scum tell to me and the no reasoning on why rubs me in the wrong way. Plus there's really no point to paying attention to post restrictions anyways so I am perturbed why he focused on players who mentioned it.
Fonz needs to answer FT's q when he get's back.
VOTE: the Fonz
-5 off- Read their iso, a bunch of side questions that I've seen no conclusion to, no pushing for anything. 294 is suppose to be a joke right? It feels out of place with the way the rest of your posts feel. What are your reads as of now?
-Nashville dreaming- This one I can't really explain as much, as it's mostly gut feels with the tammy interactions. I know you want to keep secret, but may you please tell me if one of you have played with me before? This would help my read on you, thanks.

Everyone else is looking decent or null so far. I can't agree with the other cases flying around currently.
Flubbers intro is a bit weird agree, but he promised reads so I'm going to hold off for now.

@ 5-off:
Why is day phase one useless? I get the sense that your posting is bidding your time which now makes sense, but I guess it's strange to me that a person who relies on gut would discount the first day (as people who usually do so rely on vc nk analysis, pr roles too). For reference, my gut is usually active very early before I even really think about the game.
Also, when is the time to start having reads?

@ fonz:
Lissa was not in any danger of getting lynched nor did anybody even scum read her beforehand. Why would you consider voting her to be “hounding”? What I've gathered from my experience and advice in these games is that scum have a certain self consciousness when it comes to their vote. I vote where my biggest suspicion lies, because that's what makes a townie threatening to scum, what makes my words actually have any worth to anyone. But you felt that it was better to keep your vote on someone that you were wanting a reaction to, even though your vote literally looked like a no content vote, same as his. You admitted that lissa was scummier, so why is voting her counterproductive to a reaction?
To me, it looked like you didn't want to be accused of attacking weak targets, but didn't also want to look like you were not pursuing anyone. Hence the hesitation.

Also discrediting my post while saying you can't read me is giving me all sorts of scum pings on you. If you have an accusation against me, you can say them. Saying my post just “sucks” is just an unnecessary attack that townies just don't do. and Sucking isn't scummy either.

And @bork you mean 51? It's voting where your suspicions lie is the problem. I believe the person who taught me this described it as “not voting like a townie” and I promise you many scum are guilty of it. Do you want examples? I can give them to you.

@Nashville dreaming: Do you not want to answer me?

@Ak: what was your lissa reason because of? Sorry if I missed it.

I can't follow the 4t or bp cases, all the evidence on either side is just too soft for me. I wanna say that this implies that they're both town and the scum isn't particularly striving for one over the other. and BP I still don't see a reason to use the neighborhood as a lynch pool, do you really think up to 4 lynches is worth a scum (or possibly none)?

I still stand by my thinking but things have happened that probably make this discussion better for another day. Also this happened forever ago and I don't see any other things about you.

Also fonz if you think my arguments are shit you can just tell me why instead of just blowing me off. Calling someone a village idiot = usually to claim whether or not they're town or scum, not just as a side statement. And scum have done this to me before so excuse me.

5-off seems to have had not a lot of time for mafia too I guess? Please look at my questions to you when you get back. I haven't forgotten you.

My feelings after reading the thread is that the last few pages haven't made me like ak and csareo. Ak I have been perusing their iso and I haven't seen anywhere that they're actively pushing to find someone's alignment or directing their efforts anywhere else. Their vote is parked on baboon and the conviction that he finds about a few meta reads and one post is totally wrong to me. Ak do you have any other scum reads? And how do you feel about fonz's latest posts?

vote: Anatole kuragin

My prob with Csareo is that I am pretty sure they're not new to mafia.. if they were I could excuse this behavior. Csareo, if you thought that you could determine the power roles from the flavor, then why were you trying to force a mass flavor claim and out them too?
From an outguessing the mod point of view, I'm having trouble placing where this info would be useful. I can tell you whichever game you played that the entire game could be solved by a flavor game was a poor decision on the mod's part.

~M is for Mala

OH I THOUGHT SO. Hi mala :3
As far as I can remember, this is far away from your scum meta, so my feelings about you earlier are gone. But I wanna see your full reads post.

@ bork, f-16: as promised:

Spoiler:

So what do you guys think of EspressoJet saying "Good luck finding blue team"? Why do you think he picked blue team instead of red?

This post reads as a bit scummy to me. I didn't put any thought into which color I wrote, and it didn't even occur to me that it would matter. This feels like a stretch to out me as a Mafia, but at the same time distance yourself from the accusation by hiding it behind an open minded question.

FoS

Kept vote on himself while throwing an fos on someone else.

So far:

* Boon - town
* Molla - null (Due to a previous game, need to be more wary of my reads on him)
* Nespresso - null leaning town
* Mr Ree - null leaning mafia
* Rubicon - null leaning mafia
* Bert - nothing
* Honeybee - nothing
* ZZZXXXSSSDWECSSADFQWEASDF - nothing

All based off the pushing and prodding. They're pretty loose but hopefully this will generate some discussion.

UNVOTE:

I'd be quite happy to move out of RVS given what I've seen.

--

Mr Ree - post 39 appears like you're attempting to downplay a possible slip (I'd say almost protectively, but others also did the same so I am happy to say it isn't based on others responses), almost like you're setting a precedent for what should or shouldn't be read as a slip. Why?

Further to this, you seem very interested in the self vote of Nespressojet in 44 - this is curious to me. RVS is, or should be, fairly random. Why does the self vote grab your attention?

Rubi - in 28 you pick up on an assumed 'tell', but then get quite defensive of that in 51. Your focus then seems to shift almost seamlessly to Molla in 60 and 64 - why the rapid shift? Why not place more pressure on George Clooney (Nespresso)? I might be over reading here, but both your posts appear to be throwing mud, without actually pressuring them. Generating dirt on players that can be used later is... interesting.

Threw out a bunch of scum reads but just unvoted his rvs vote.

And thesp is null to me until he answers about his scum reads.

Sorry, I missed your question. Is this what you're referring to?

Thesp, I really don't care for town reads, is jake your only scum read?

I'm really not keen on Flames682. If he was still around, at this moment he'd be my scond choice for a lynch. (When he's around, we'll find out exactly where he ranks. At this point he needs to be replaced.) I think the play of BoroPhil and Boonskiies is terrible as well. While I can't imagine that all four of our lurkers/flakers (some of who are actively lurking) are scum, I definitely imagine they didn't want to get caught up in the me/Jake from State Farm tussle, and the poor play of the town lurkers/flakers has likely enabled scum lurking/flaking. I don't see scum playing like BoroPhil is playing, but to a greater extent I don't see

town

playing like BoroPhil has. (Same with Boonskiies, to a lesser extent.)

I like the pressure on BoroPhil. If there's no change in his behavior, I will gladly move my vote there to secure a lynch as needed.

I actually like the last several posts from Jake from State Farm.

Kept his vote on jake even after admitting that Jake was probably not scum.

I really don't understand this argument here. Whether or not RQS is a viable option for starting a game really has nothing to do with anyone's alignment. Neither is refusing to answer the questions (which is more like a tell of personality). Either way, arguing about RQS has been extremely unhelpful to anyone.

All the lying accusations feel really weak.. People forget, people don't read, it's natural. Lying to me is only scummy when it comes to interpreting reads or PR information of the current game.

And just so you know, I don't like meta arguments. Maybe you all feel differently, and that's fine. If you want to convince me of anything, try a different way.

That's all I'm going to say on theses subjects. Anyways..

I'm not really being hesistant, I'm just suffering from typical D1 apathy.

Can someone start a fight with someone?

Basically the first page was full of a whole series of rubbish reasoning. Also fluff. Lots of fluff. Scum love fluff.

Cheery is worrying me as he has voted for me. This could be simple paranoia.

First off, Borophil, you realize that the first page was RVS, right? If you really thought "rubbish reasoning and fluff" was scummy, why not just vote someone and make some progress.

Why did you ignore Cheery dog's question? You need to explain what that last comment meant. Also why are you voting jake? Because they want to be IC?

I am quite confused by this conversation and don't know what to say about it. Therefore,
I am going to just leave my vote where it is for now and may end up changing it.

If you don't understand what they're talking about, you didn't understand the case in the first place, and were just bandwagoning.
VOTE: TheGottemer
TheGottemer, Can you tell us your thinking about the game at the moment?

Jake, do you still believe is TheGottemer is scummy? I think you changed your mind.. so I want to know why.

Thesp, can you give us your current reads at the moment? If you have made reads on anyone else, I must have missed it.

Boonskies, what makes ashura voting you scummier than joining any other wagon? I mean there was plenty of other wagons to join at that time.

(me) Switched my vote to someone else even though I spend more of my time pressuring boro.
=17285&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]enomit iso
Enomis literally never pressures the person he's voting (or in this case bussing) and spends all of his efforts at the shiny hydra.
=19101#p4984698]Mala iso
Mala also ignores her vote target in order to pressure other players like jmo, leaving me to push the lynch instead (damn u mala ).

Anyways you get the point but the relation of your vote and your reads are very important. Townies move their vote naturally with their suspicions, but with scum you are at least somewhat aware or thinking about how your vote looks. And it's not a strategy per se, but instead just a mistake because scum don't know where's a safe place to keep their vote.

I seem to be having trouble accessing this site from my computer, is anyone else having problems?

Anatole: how are you ready to lynch me already? You have never directed at me any effort to find out my alignment and now when two people dislike me you suddenly want to jump on? And you ignored my questions and accusations against you completely..

4t:

-5 off- Read their iso, a bunch of side questions that I've seen no conclusion to, no pushing for anything. 294 is suppose to be a joke right? It feels out of place with the way the rest of your posts feel. What are your reads as of now?

294 was a joke, yes. It's still early yet to make reads (even light ones), in my opinion. If you are going to FOS me for that, I will gladly direct you to places where I've publicly stated that DP1 in mafia is useless and that only gut reads matter. My gut hasn't spoken much yet. I think that the conversation on whether or not FT stole reasoning from whoever that person was is irrelevant. FT is full of himself, he dismisses the analysis of others because they are not-FT. The two people that strike me as odd are Nashville and the guy who quoted the "hydra gimmick" thing, but there's nothing significant there yet. Lissa's looking good so far. I want to hear more from F-16, his hydra seems to kinda suck.

@ 5-off:
Why is day phase one useless? I get the sense that your posting is bidding your time which now makes sense, but I guess it's strange to me that a person who relies on gut would discount the first day (as people who usually do so rely on vc nk analysis, pr roles too). For reference, my gut is usually active very early before I even really think about the game.
Also, when is the time to start having reads?

My questions towards him are aimed at at figuring out his playstyle, because I am trying to determine if my read on him was actually true or just an extension of how he views the game. Scum like taking less stances and have more interest in throwing speculation and questions on the side lines. 5-off's play resembles that to me, since I couldn't find anything he interpreted from his questions. But since he claims that it's more of his playstyle to not have a strong day 1, I asked for justification so I could know he's not bsing his theory and that it actually has logic and thought to me. And his response is understandable.

He's my problem with DP1s. People then analyze those early reads and tidbits of "analysis" which is terrible for two reasons. First of all, you are taking reads that already had a low chance of being correct and then basing your reads on those reads, multiplying chances of being wrong, and you are creating reasoning that may not be true in order to have more "thorough analysis." I like to think that the mafia wouldn't make errors on DP1 if they were good as any errors would inherently be unforced, and that leads towns that try their damnedest on DP1 to catch scum to shooting themselves in the foot.

The general sense I am getting is that 5-offs is careful in his analysis day 1 because towns tend to blow things out of proportion and it's better to keep your reads more open so that you are not clouded by confirmation bias. So I can understand a low key style and not wanting to spark fire and let scum hide day 1. If he had said something about his gut “needing flips” or he prefers solving by roles, I would continue having a scum read on him (because it would make no sense). But now I'm more comfortable with him, and he's given

Also that's how I speak normally, I just like words like that (I use please a lot actually).

Gw:
The reason why it's wrong is because (again) their interests betray their vote. Ak has admitted that he's not the best at day one, but instead of going about figuring out his read on baboon or doubting himself, he keeps it parked on baboon and never gives it a second thought. In other words his thinking and what he's saying doesn't match up.

As for a full reads list, other than Ak and Csareo I don't have any other scum reads. The only person I am comfortable completely ignoring for today's lynch is Four trouble: his aggression and behavior feel natural to me. Otherwise I am not a big fan of town reads, so I have anyone else as null.

@ bork, f-16: as promised:

Spoiler:

So what do you guys think of EspressoJet saying "Good luck finding blue team"? Why do you think he picked blue team instead of red?

This post reads as a bit scummy to me. I didn't put any thought into which color I wrote, and it didn't even occur to me that it would matter. This feels like a stretch to out me as a Mafia, but at the same time distance yourself from the accusation by hiding it behind an open minded question.

FoS

Kept vote on himself while throwing an fos on someone else.

So far:

* Boon - town
* Molla - null (Due to a previous game, need to be more wary of my reads on him)
* Nespresso - null leaning town
* Mr Ree - null leaning mafia
* Rubicon - null leaning mafia
* Bert - nothing
* Honeybee - nothing
* ZZZXXXSSSDWECSSADFQWEASDF - nothing

All based off the pushing and prodding. They're pretty loose but hopefully this will generate some discussion.

UNVOTE:

I'd be quite happy to move out of RVS given what I've seen.

--

Mr Ree - post 39 appears like you're attempting to downplay a possible slip (I'd say almost protectively, but others also did the same so I am happy to say it isn't based on others responses), almost like you're setting a precedent for what should or shouldn't be read as a slip. Why?

Further to this, you seem very interested in the self vote of Nespressojet in 44 - this is curious to me. RVS is, or should be, fairly random. Why does the self vote grab your attention?

Rubi - in 28 you pick up on an assumed 'tell', but then get quite defensive of that in 51. Your focus then seems to shift almost seamlessly to Molla in 60 and 64 - why the rapid shift? Why not place more pressure on George Clooney (Nespresso)? I might be over reading here, but both your posts appear to be throwing mud, without actually pressuring them. Generating dirt on players that can be used later is... interesting.

Threw out a bunch of scum reads but just unvoted his rvs vote.

And thesp is null to me until he answers about his scum reads.

Sorry, I missed your question. Is this what you're referring to?

Thesp, I really don't care for town reads, is jake your only scum read?

I'm really not keen on Flames682. If he was still around, at this moment he'd be my scond choice for a lynch. (When he's around, we'll find out exactly where he ranks. At this point he needs to be replaced.) I think the play of BoroPhil and Boonskiies is terrible as well. While I can't imagine that all four of our lurkers/flakers (some of who are actively lurking) are scum, I definitely imagine they didn't want to get caught up in the me/Jake from State Farm tussle, and the poor play of the town lurkers/flakers has likely enabled scum lurking/flaking. I don't see scum playing like BoroPhil is playing, but to a greater extent I don't see

town

playing like BoroPhil has. (Same with Boonskiies, to a lesser extent.)

I like the pressure on BoroPhil. If there's no change in his behavior, I will gladly move my vote there to secure a lynch as needed.

I actually like the last several posts from Jake from State Farm.

Kept his vote on jake even after admitting that Jake was probably not scum.

I really don't understand this argument here. Whether or not RQS is a viable option for starting a game really has nothing to do with anyone's alignment. Neither is refusing to answer the questions (which is more like a tell of personality). Either way, arguing about RQS has been extremely unhelpful to anyone.

All the lying accusations feel really weak.. People forget, people don't read, it's natural. Lying to me is only scummy when it comes to interpreting reads or PR information of the current game.

And just so you know, I don't like meta arguments. Maybe you all feel differently, and that's fine. If you want to convince me of anything, try a different way.

That's all I'm going to say on theses subjects. Anyways..

I'm not really being hesistant, I'm just suffering from typical D1 apathy.

Can someone start a fight with someone?

Basically the first page was full of a whole series of rubbish reasoning. Also fluff. Lots of fluff. Scum love fluff.

Cheery is worrying me as he has voted for me. This could be simple paranoia.

First off, Borophil, you realize that the first page was RVS, right? If you really thought "rubbish reasoning and fluff" was scummy, why not just vote someone and make some progress.

Why did you ignore Cheery dog's question? You need to explain what that last comment meant. Also why are you voting jake? Because they want to be IC?

I am quite confused by this conversation and don't know what to say about it. Therefore,
I am going to just leave my vote where it is for now and may end up changing it.

If you don't understand what they're talking about, you didn't understand the case in the first place, and were just bandwagoning.
VOTE: TheGottemer
TheGottemer, Can you tell us your thinking about the game at the moment?

Jake, do you still believe is TheGottemer is scummy? I think you changed your mind.. so I want to know why.

Thesp, can you give us your current reads at the moment? If you have made reads on anyone else, I must have missed it.

Boonskies, what makes ashura voting you scummier than joining any other wagon? I mean there was plenty of other wagons to join at that time.

(me) Switched my vote to someone else even though I spend more of my time pressuring boro.
enomit iso
Enomis literally never pressures the person he's voting (or in this case bussing) and spends all of his efforts at the shiny hydra.
Mala iso
Mala also ignores her vote target in order to pressure other players like jmo, leaving me to push the lynch instead (damn u mala ).

Anyways you get the point but the relation of your vote and your reads are very important. Townies move their vote naturally with their suspicions, but with scum you are at least somewhat aware or thinking about how your vote looks. And it's not a strategy per se, but instead just a mistake because scum don't know where's a safe place to keep their vote.

Also fixed this because it was bothering me.

Here, I've quoted most of Honeybee's iso. They don't post a lot. Yet, what they do post has a clear trajectory. I know you don't want to do this but can you get me the information I want in another way. I deliberately ignored that request because to my knowledge Honeybee has only played in one finished game which I was the mod of. It was ongoing at the time. I couldn't very well start commenting on that. Plus, it might wind up misleading Honeybee if I had knowledge about how they thought as town while simultaneously claiming I never played with them.

I disagree with a few of her reasonings, but she's taking strong positions and holding herself out there. Again, that's a clear indication of townie for a relatively newer player. Saying something sucks is an indication of scum is frankly wrong and something I do all the time regardless of alignment. However, she is right to be noticing these posts because they are an observation and an attempt to persuade. What players fight for can be alignment indicative.

There's more but I'd rather not write a wall larger than Honey bee's iso on why they are obviously town.


Can you come join me on ika?

[Cutty Shark]

I had a read list about half the day phase ago; it's a little dated but the town reads haven't changed that much.

709

-b

[Nashville Dreams]

That's such a big misrep. I don't think we've even said SK or neutral at all. Nah, I have caught you though. It was just so bad that you resigned in thread. Given the preemptive discredits here and my conftown status there (although I was the SK), I doubt you'd feel that threatened.

you wanna bet? i can link you to a post where you were basicly neutral hunting.

again:

LINK ME TO A GAME WHERE I RAGED OUT WHERE YOU CAUGHT ME. untill you do that your whole argument is moot

Then you're misrepping the post. Day 1, it's not helpful to hunt for neutrals unless a player is so convinced one is present.

Also, people change metas ika. Yes, even you.

[fferyllt]

Who is Nashville Dreams? Titus and Mala?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm tempted to lynch IHNC just to make 70% of the arguing about meta/hydras/etc. about and by them that does nothing for game state to go away.

[Cutty Shark]

yes

any post that you see a lyric in italics in is mala

~m is mala

haydn p is titus

-b

[I have no creativity]

titus, answer my fucking question:

after our townflip you agree to be turbolynched?

only then i agree to our lynch

p-edit: SHOW ME A FUCKING GAME YOU ASS. LINK ME TO ONE FUCKING GAME WHERE I RAGE AS SCUM IN GENERAL, YOUR META CASE IS FUCKING SHIT

@fery

yes

[Nashville Dreams]

Wow that got immensely garbled... I think there's some code in Honey's posts that have had issues.

To be clear, I've had no issues with access.

Yeah Nashville Dreams is Mala and Titus.

[I have no creativity]

@ak then vote me and tubolynch titus tommorow

[Anatole Kuragin]

ok

VOTE: IHNC

[Cutty Shark]

after our townflip you agree to be turbolynched?

only then i agree to our lynch

We're not fucking doing this kind of fucking shit. It was dumb when BBMolla suggested it in X-Men and it's dumb now. You flipping town doesn't make them auto scum.

Stop with the noise.

-b

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, why'd you vote me?

[Nashville Dreams]

titus, answer my fucking question:

after our townflip you agree to be turbolynched?

only then i agree to our lynch

p-edit: SHOW ME A FUCKING GAME YOU ASS. LINK ME TO ONE FUCKING GAME WHERE I RAGE AS SCUM IN GENERAL, YOUR META CASE IS FUCKING SHIT

@fery

yes

ika, since you're a fan of meta, when have I ever agreed to be lynched? Why do you ask when your answer is no?

I said metas change. We all know it is true that metas change. You can be pissed you got caught but not defeated like when I was "conftown". (That game is why you don't conftown people based on roles early).

[I have no creativity]

after our townflip you agree to be turbolynched?

only then i agree to our lynch

We're not fucking doing this kind of fucking shit. It was dumb when BBMolla suggested it in X-Men and it's dumb now. You flipping town doesn't make them auto scum.

Stop with the noise.

-b

then vote me, im not dealing with this shit if you wont tubo-lynch titus for being an obvious scum then maybe my fucking townflip will make you fucking reconsider

@titus: witchunt game. that was the wrong answer btw

[Anatole Kuragin]

Anatole, why'd you vote me?

Deadline is approaching.

Don't like your posts since the bp/me/csareo thing and I didn't like the way you turned around and tried to make a scum case on me when you got a little breathing room from your noose.

I am also inclined to give 3/4 people on your wagon benefit of the doubt based on recent reads and interactions.

I'd honestly vote for you, ihnc, nash, or honey right now though because we need to work towards a consensus and while honey is giving me the worst scum gut scum vibe, the rest of you would provide a lot more information with a lynch so I'm willing to compromise.

[FourTrouble]

ffery, take a look at Honey's ISO. Also take a look at 971. And I believe F-16/Tammy gave some further reasoning somewhere as well.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm immediately suspicious of anyone pushing a lynch on csareo because he's done jack shit besides his goofy theories, recklessly (and in a way that has no apparent scum motivation) throwing out role flavors, and scumreading based on an honest mistake from a mod error. It's low hanging fruit.

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, I'd compromise on IHNC or Nash but Honey gives us our best shot at hitting scum, regardless of how much "information" the lynch provides. And you're wrong it wouldn't give much information. People have offered reasoned positions on Honey, so their lynch will be useful.

[FourTrouble]

Have you come around on Lissa?

[I have no creativity]

Anatole, I'd compromise on IHNC or Nash but Honey gives us our best shot at hitting scum, regardless of how much "information" the lynch provides. And you're wrong it wouldn't give much information. People have offered reasoned positions on Honey, so their lynch will be useful.

you vote me now or shut up

we are lynching me today just to fucking how you titus is a scumfuckign butt

[I have no creativity]

its me or nahs pick now

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: Honey Bee

sure, good luck convincing people who would rather argue about long finished games than consider the possibility they could be wrong

and yeah, I'm giving Lissa benefit of the doubt for now until we get a flip

[I have no creativity]

ive already called out the shitty scum team as well but nobody listens i could be wrong on maybe one of them but im confident 2 of the 3 are

[FourTrouble]

IHNC, please take another look at Honey. Town or scum? Why?