[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Phillammon]

Ack. So jailkeeper is not the role to go for here.

Making the Vig kill compulsive may be the way to go, looking at that (and it should be anyway, given just straight up refusing to shoot turns it into 11-2 mountainous).

[Kaiveran]

wgeurts9++

What is a Virgin? I was gonna say can't be roleblocked, but that would make no sense since there is no implied night action.

[Phillammon]

Virgin, if killed, prevents all nightkills the following night, but if roleblocked by the hooker becomes a VT. (Paraphrased from what wgeurts has said so far)

[Kaiveran]

Hmm, I'd then just have the Mafia RB flavored as Hooker all the time. Is it really a good idea to let scum know there's a specific power role in the game?

Other than that, I honestly think this could be developed into a viable alternative to C9++ and the ilk. I especially like the inclusion of Backups; it really mitigates the "no real way to defend against 3 Cops/Docs/RBs" problem with higher power draws in the other doubleplusgood setups.

Scum roles definitely need to be tweaked though. 3:10 with scum PRs is too strong against the larger amount of T's which have only 1-2 town PRs.

[wgeurts]

Hmm, I'd then just have the Mafia RB flavored as Hooker all the time. Is it really a good idea to let scum know there's a specific power role in the game?

Other than that, I honestly think this could be developed into a viable alternative to C9++ and the ilk. I especially like the inclusion of Backups; it really mitigates the "no real way to defend against 3 Cops/Docs/RBs" problem with higher power draws in the other doubleplusgood setups.

Scum roles definitely need to be tweaked though. 3:10 with scum PRs is too strong against the larger amount of T's which have only 1-2 town PRs.

This would mean that all roles in-game wouldn't be announced at game start to get your proposal to work. Any suggestions on the Mafia tweaks? Mabye I could just add 2 more people to the player count.

[LlamaFluff]

C9++ variant thoughts:


1) Can you clarify what all of your roles are? I see people come in and have different explanations of what they are
2) While its rare to roll three of the same letter, I am not sure you realize how strong being told you guarantee that you are on that tier.
3) What is your ultimate goal here for setup? We have C9++ and JK++ already which are fairly solid even though can be pushed to town slightly with optimal claim patterns. This doesn't help with claim pattern and actually makes it stronger for town.

[wgeurts]

My goal of this C9++ Variation is to make a more "random" version which is yet still balanced. With C9++, however rare, you can end up with three cops and there is still room for another power role. This can easily abused; 3 cops and 10 others where of 3 are mafia, they have a 3/10 almost 1/3 chance of hitting a mafia. However that's why you have the Godfather and a Roleblocker. With the Godfather the chance of getting "guilty" is 1/5, you have three cops however so the chance is still there. The roleblocker has 3/10 chance of blocking a cop. By day two these odds become larger and the town if no cop was killed is has heavy odds for winning.
You get the same problem with 3 doctors, they protect 3 people if they all choose different people and that means the scum have a 3/10 chance of hitting a protected guy 1/3 if the game starts with a day.
To balance this I added the Nurse and Deputy: the nurse becomes a doctor when a doctor dies and the deputy becomes a cop on death of a cop. This is already more balanced. My setup is more of a C9++ variation than a JK9++ variation as JK has a completely different feel and play style with roles active such as the Gunsmith and Commuter.
The difference with mine is that I've given the scum more power, while also making a setup which is truely different every time it is used. Hence the many role variations like bodyguard instead of 1-shot doctor etc. In certain aspects I've buffed the town; like with the bodyguard.
I'll make a summary of the roles later. What do you mean with your 2nd question though?
I'm sorry if my English sucks as I'm Dutch.

[Phillammon]

One Quiet Night

2x Mafia CPR Doctors

10x Town CPR Doctors

Mafia do not have a factional kill. Players do NOT flip when killed. Mafia win if all members of the town are dead, even if no mafia are left alive. Town win if a night passes without any deaths, even if there are still mafia left alive.

(If an odd number of CPR doctors target a player, the player dies. If an even number target a player, the player does not die. CPR doctors may target themselves.)

(Three guesses what old, broken open setup I was thinking about when I put this together.)

(Yes, it was Texas Justice)

I'm pretty sure that this setup isn't broken. It's definitely 1) Chaotic and 2) A touch scumsided, but I wanted to see if a noflip open setup was doable (if one already exists, then my apologies). The nonstandard town win condition is intended to fit with the noflip nature of the game- the mafia can just sit back and let the town destroy themselves.

So yes, is this horrible for reasons I haven't anticipated?

EDIT: Apparently I suggested something not dissimilar to this a while back, but with some notable changes. I've modified it slightly to account for the criticisms from its last iteration.

[TierShift]

It's horrible because noflip.

[Phillammon]

That particular reason I did anticipate. I take it that noflip is in fact the work of satan, then?

[Cheery Dog]

I think Donner Party should be the closest anything gets to no flip.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also we invented a new spin-off set-up called 'Who Needs a Fifth' which is 3 mafia, 2 town; if a townie gets lynched Day 1 they survive and make two immediate kills; if mafia get lynched Day 1 they have to kill one of their buddies and confirm a townie.

Dropping this in from the Scumdon thread; worked well enough at the meet to be a genuine alternative to Vengeful at five players.

[BBmolla]

Also we invented a new spin-off set-up called 'Who Needs a Fifth' which is 3 mafia, 2 town; if a townie gets lynched Day 1 they survive and make two immediate kills; if mafia get lynched Day 1 they have to kill one of their buddies and confirm a townie.

Dropping this in from the Scumdon thread; worked well enough at the meet to be a genuine alternative to Vengeful at five players.

This is hilarious

[Kaiveran]

This would mean that all roles in-game wouldn't be announced at game start to get your proposal to work. Any suggestions on the Mafia tweaks? Mabye I could just add 2 more people to the player count.

First off, I don't think you get how ++ setups work – under NO circumstances do you reveal the roles that have been drawn at the beginning of the game. That's a secret to everybody except the mod. So, in this instance, making the Mafia Roleblocker into a Hooker at all times doesn't affect anything other than, the Mafia will no longer know if there's a Virgin in the game or not. Which they weren't supposed to know

anyway

. You get me?

I don't think it should be a larger game either, everything but the Mafia roles seems consistent with the original 13 player design.

I think I'll work on this later today.

[Bicephalous Bob]

Based on Heaven and Hell by Elscouta.

Purgatory

10 Vanilla Townies
4 Mafia Goons

-Instead of day and nights, phases alternate between heaven and hell. The game starts with a hell phase.
-During heaven phase, the town votes for one player to send to heaven. During hell phase, the town votes for one player to send to hell.
-Town wins if 3 scums are sent to hell, scum wins if 3 scums are sent to heaven.
-Alignment is revealed upon being sent to heaven or hell.
-All scum, whether alive or sent away, can talk to each other at all times in the Mafia PT.
-Only townies who are sent to heaven are added to the dead PT. Townies who are sent to heaven have a separate martyr PT.
-When 50% of the living players are scum*, a Judgment Day occurs. All living players lose the ability to vote. The martyrs privately vote in the martyr PT to send a living player to hell. If the player is town, the Mafia win. If not, the game moves on to a heaven phase.
-Plurality lynches.

*This can only happen after a heaven phase.

[wgeurts]

This would mean that all roles in-game wouldn't be announced at game start to get your proposal to work. Any suggestions on the Mafia tweaks? Mabye I could just add 2 more people to the player count.

First off, I don't think you get how ++ setups work – under NO circumstances do you reveal the roles that have been drawn at the beginning of the game. That's a secret to everybody except the mod. So, in this instance, making the Mafia Roleblocker into a Hooker at all times doesn't affect anything other than, the Mafia will no longer know if there's a Virgin in the game or not. Which they weren't supposed to know

anyway

. You get me?

I don't think it should be a larger game either, everything but the Mafia roles seems consistent with the original 13 player design.

I think I'll work on this later today.

Ah, I now see. I blame my newness to this forum, I'm familiar with mafia and your wiki but not all the setups. Also, any mob balance suggestions?
I'll post an update + role descriptions later.

[wgeurts]

1-50 = T (Town)
51-65 = I (Informative)
66-75 = P (Protective)
76-85 = K (Killing)
86-95 = A (Passive)
96-100 = M (Manipulative)

Town:
TTTTTTT =

2 Goons

TTTTTT =

Hooker + 2 Goons

TTTTT =

1-Shot Stalker + Goon + Hooker

,

Serial Killer

TTTT =

1-Shot Stalker + Goon + Hooker

TTT =

Stalker + Goon + Hooker

,

Serial Killer

TT =

Stalker + Goon + Hooker

T =

Stalker + Lawyer + Bus Driver

,

Serial Killer

0 Ts =

Stalker + Lawyer + Bus Driver

Informative:
I =

1-Shot Cop

II =

Cop

III =

Cop + 1-Shot Cop

IIII =

Cop + Deputy

IIIII =

Cop + Deputy + 1-Shot Cop

IIIIII =

2 Cops + Deputy

Protective:
P =

Bodyguard

PP =

Doctor

PPP =

Doctor + Bodyguard

PPPP =

Doctor + Bodyguard + Nurse

PPPPP =

2 Doctors + Nurse

Killing:
K =

Suicide Bomber

KK =

1-Shot Vigilante

KKK =

1-Shot Vigilante + Suicide Bomber

KKKK =

2 1-Shot Vigilantes

KKKKK =

2 1-Shot Vigilantes + Vengeful

Passive:
A =

Innocent Child

AA =

2 Masons

AAA =

2 Masons + Innocent Child

AAAA =

2 Masons + Innocent Child + Virgin

AAAAA =

3 Masons + Virgin

Manipulative:
M =

1-Shot Roleblocker

MM =

Roleblocker

MMM =

Roleblocker + 1-Shot Rolestopper

MMMM =

Roleblocker + 1-Shot Rolestopper + 1-Shot Roleblocker

MMMMM =

2 Roleblockers + 1-Shot Rolestopper

Serial Killer

chooses one of two abilities at start of game;

• 1-Shot Inspection Innnocence
  Or
  
• 1-Shot BulletProof

Roles:

Bodyguard:

Visits one person every night.
If somebody tries to kill that person the bodyguard will die in place of the target.

Bus Driver:

Visits two people every night. Any night-abilities of those people target each other.

Cop:

Visits one person every night and receives a report with that person's alignment. ("Guilty" or "Innocent".)

Deputy:

When a cop dies the deputy becomes a cop.

Doctor:

Visits one person every night.That person will be protected from dying that night. (From any form or night-kill unless specified.)

Goon:

A regular mafia member with no extra abilities.

Hooker:

Visits one person every night and that person is role blocked.

Innocent Child:

His/her name and role are made public at the start of the game.

Lawyer:

Visits one person at night, that person shows up "innocent" on inepection.

Masons:

Knows who the other mason(s) are/is.

Nurse:

When a doctor dies the nurse becomes a doctor.

Roleblocker:

Visits one person every night and that person is role blocked.

Rolestopper:

Visits one person each night, all effects targeted at that player are blocked including night-kills.

Serial Killer:

Kills one person per night as a night-kill and wins if (s)he is the last person in-game. Shows up guilty on inspection.

Suicide Bomber:

Can visit one person once per game at night. That person dies even if he is protected, the suicide bomber also dies.

Stalker:

Visits one person per night. Finds out the visited players role.

Vengeful:

On death may choose to kill one person.

Vigilante:

May once per game visit one person. That player is then night-killed.

Virgin:

If night-killed, no night-kills may be performed the following night. Becomes a towny if role-blocked by hooker.

The rest are Vanilla Townies.

[wgeurts]

I've decided to run 5 setup test to see what kind of outcomes I get.
Edit: ">" means after mafia nerf.

Test 1

15-T
96-M
37-T
39-T
79-K
13-T
14-T
TTTTTKM

Stalker > 1-Shot Stalker
Hooker
Goon

1-Shot Roleblocker
Suicide Bomber
7 Townies

Serial Killer

Test 2

26-T
34-T
93-A
88-A
85-K
40-T
63-I
TTTIKAA

Stalker
Hooker
Lawyer > Goon

Suicide Bomber
1-Shot Cop
2 Masons
5 Townies

Serial Killer

Test 3

89-A
74-P
48-T
85-K
2-T
93-A
32-T
TTTPKAA

Stalker
Hooker
Lawyer > Goon

Bodyguard
Suicide Bomber
2 Masons
5 Townies

Serial Killer

Test 4

75-P
55-I
89-A
28-T
46-T
64-I
40-T
TTTIIPA

Stalker
Hooker
Lawyer > Goon

Innocent Child
Cop
Bodyguard
6 Townies

Serial Killer

Test 5

26-T
27-T
3-T
86-A
75-P
16-T
41-T
TTTTTPA

Stalker > 1-Shot Stalker
Hooker
Goon

Innocent Child
Bodyguard
7 Townies

Serial Killer

Outcome: I need to take power away from the scum.

[JasonWazza]

-Town wins if 3 scums are sent to hell, scum wins if 3 scums are sent to heaven.

What happens if 2 scum go each way?

[Bicephalous Bob]

oh I messed up, it's supposed to say 2.

It's probably more fun this way, although I'm not sure about the balance:

Purgatory

6/10 Vanilla Townies
3/5 Mafia Goons

-Instead of day and nights, phases alternate between heaven and hell. The game starts with a hell phase.
-During heaven phase, the town votes for one player to send to heaven. During hell phase, the town votes for one player to send to hell.
-Town wins if the majority of scum is sent to hell, scum wins if the majority of scum is sent to heaven.
-Alignment is revealed upon being sent to heaven or hell.
-All scum, whether alive or sent away, can talk to each other at all times in the Mafia PT.
-Only townies who are sent to hell are added to the dead PT. Townies who are sent to heaven have a separate martyr PT.
-When 50% of the living players are scum*, a Judgment Day occurs. All living players lose the ability to vote. The martyrs privately vote in the martyr PT to send a living player to hell. If the player is town, the Mafia win. If not, the game moves on to a heaven phase.
-Plurality lynches!

*This can only happen after a hell phase.

[Riddleton]

I like the setup. I'm worried it might be balanced towards town because of judgement day. I find it unlikely the martyrs would miss and send a townie to hell on judgement day, when basically they've had a lot of the game to talk to themselves and work the game out.

[JasonWazza]

-Only townies who are sent to heaven are added to the dead PT. Townies who are sent to heaven have a separate martyr PT.

This doesn't quite make sense, wouldn't this qualify the dead QT as the Martyr QT?

[Riddleton]

-Only townies who are sent to heaven are added to the dead PT. Townies who are sent to heaven have a separate martyr PT.

This doesn't quite make sense, wouldn't this qualify the dead QT as the Martyr QT?

I think he means there are two "dead" QTs. One general dead QT, and another one just for those who are sent to heaven (martyrs)

[Wake1]

Could 'Rebels in the Palace' be considered Normal? (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... the_Palace)

I have an idea for a slight deviation on it, and would like to try it in the Normal queue.

[Bicephalous Bob]

-Only townies who are sent to heaven are added to the dead PT. Townies who are sent to heaven have a separate martyr PT.

This doesn't quite make sense, wouldn't this qualify the dead QT as the Martyr QT?

you're right, fixed it