Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[Anatole Kuragin]

Not saying he couldn't be mafia. Heck, that would be fucking great.

Also, AK... my play here is actually pretty similar to Timseshift, so uh what?

-Ceph

Honestly when I originally came up with that read I had no idea you were studio 51

[Natirasha]

Vote Count 2.6

"Hey! That guy fell asleep! Let's vote him out!"

Nashville Dreams(1):

OkaPoka

Cutty Shark(0):

5-Off(1):

Lissa

AnatoleKuragin(1):

TheFonz

The Fonz(0):

F-1_Fighting_Falcon(0):

Baboon Pride(0):

fferyllt(1):

F-16_Fighting_Falcon

OkaPoka(1):

Baboon Pride

Lissa(0):

Not Voting(5):

5-Off, AnatoleKuragin, fferyllt, Cutty Shark, Nashville Dreams

With ten alive, it is six to lynch.
STILL Replacing 5-Off! I will likely extend deadline a little once found.

(expired on 2014-09-30 16:00:00)

[Natirasha]

Prodding Cutty Shark and the Fonz.

[The Fonz]

"Look who's back from hiatus" was a stupid way to say that.

920 came after I had posts from Saturday to Monday questioning Lissa's reads and her perceived innocence within the neighborhood. It can be considered along with 1011 - Honey comes back after 3 days of not posting and the only thing he's concerned with is me questioning Lissa? Knowing Honey is scum that seems pretty bad.

This would be valid, if ze was concerned with you questioning Lissa. But the point I'm repeatedly making was that not only was it not the 'only' thing HB was concerned with,

there is no evidence whatsoever that Honey questioning you had anything to do with Lissa.

At all. People really ought to ISO the dead scum. The anatole vote flows from early omgus and then Anatole ignoring HB's questions and accusations at him.

Honey Bee mentioned Lissa 4 times in her first two posts then didn't mention her and never responded to or quoted her directly.

Again, this is deeply misleading. The 'four mentions of Lissa' in the first two posts are entirely Honey attacking me over my choosing not to vote for Lissa.

Honey Bee didn't have any significant interaction with anyone but Lissa and me (attacking me after questioning Lissa.)

HONEY DID NOT HAVE A SIGNIFICANT INTERACTION WITH LISSA. Also, the 'no interaction with anyone else' claim is false.

It could also just be added questionable utility to the role, since I can go through whatever protection being afforded if I shoot a townie.

What are you saying about 5-off other than you don't want to lynch him?

And this is why the 'No significant interaction with anyone else' claim is false.

-5 off- Read their iso, a bunch of side questions that I've seen no conclusion to, no pushing for anything. 294 is suppose to be a joke right? It feels out of place with the way the rest of your posts feel. What are your reads as of now?

@ 5-off:
Why is day phase one useless? I get the sense that your posting is bidding your time which now makes sense, but I guess it's strange to me that a person who relies on gut would discount the first day (as people who usually do so rely on vc nk analysis, pr roles too). For reference, my gut is usually active very early before I even really think about the game.
Also, when is the time to start having reads?

5-off seems to have had not a lot of time for mafia too I guess? Please look at my questions to you when you get back. I haven't forgotten you.

#1011 doesn't talk to five off, but talks to you (AK) about 5-Off in a great deal of detail.

So my point here was this: while trying and failing to find anything about Lissa in Honey Bee's ISO, what I did find was that HB dedicates a really surprisingly high amount of zir posts talking to and about 5-Off, given that both players were otherwise undercontributing. Honey feels like ze's bending over backwards to justify 5-Off's actions, suggesting possible town motives for 5-Off before 5-Off answers zir questions. I was also somewhat wary because 5-Off essentially represented himself as an off-the-wall, gambity player as town who likes to 'confuse' scum, and there's no sign of that in his play here. Which is why in #2362 I asked Baboon to explain their 5-Off suspicion, since I felt that the slot was getting ignored.

(Lissa, AK, 5-off, Oka) are all problem slots for me right now.

See, this is one of the problems I have with this game. This list is 'The raw newbie who's been an echo chamber, the guy from another site who only posted one liners then flaked, and the player with the weird entry vote that was then replaced by two VIs in a row.' Apart from Anatole, this is 3/4 of the 'easiest' lynch players in the game (the other's Nashville, who's a different easy lynch archetype - the reasonably active player whose logic is so truly horrific it's hard to believe anyone could be that stupid- and who has also drawn a ton of heat). I mean, I know the easiest lynch in the game flipped scum yesterday, but I'm pretty sure this game isn't going to be that simple.

It could also just be added questionable utility to the role, since I can go through whatever protection being afforded if I shoot a townie.

Please explain precisely what you mean here.

Maybe the super secret function of Fonz's role is "if you target AK or his target, the kill doesn't happen"

-Ceph

Hard to see how me blessing anatole would prevent his kill. His target, mebbe - one of my first thoughts when I got the role was that it might be a doc protect/faith healer type deal.

Please tell me if I missed any questions or anything.

You missed doing any scumhunting.

Another thing, and I'm heading off now so don't have time to dig through the thread for it, but IIRC two players listed fferyllt as a solid town read before she'd done ANYTHING in this game. I think Lissa might have been one of them. This is scummy, and I feel better about ffer for pointing it out, because there was just no justification for having any kind of town read on that slot at that point.

[Cutty Shark]

See, this is one of the problems I have with this game. This list is 'The raw newbie who's been an echo chamber, the guy from another site who only posted one liners then flaked, and the player with the weird entry vote that was then replaced by two VIs in a row.' Apart from Anatole, this is 3/4 of the 'easiest' lynch players in the game (the other's Nashville, who's a different easy lynch archetype - the reasonably active player whose logic is so truly horrific it's hard to believe anyone could be that stupid- and who has also drawn a ton of heat). I mean, I know the easiest lynch in the game flipped scum yesterday, but I'm pretty sure this game isn't going to be that simple.

I realize that there's a really good chance that I have a read in the wrong spot. That kinda happens every game.

A more productive way to have this conversation would be: do you disagree with any of my townreads right now?

-b

[The Fonz]

So Baboon and Ffery fall into my "nothing that would be particularly tough for experienced scum to pull off" bracket. F-16 would be there, as he/Tammy were earlier, were it not for my night result. You seem to have a fairly strong meta read on one of Baboon's heads. Could you explain the "Sea of town" comment? I don't like Mara's Oka vote. I'm not sure there's any reason for suspicion that transcends "VI who replaced VI who replaced guy who made one weird vote and then flaked."

[Lissa]

I analyzed the honey wagon and what surrounded it starting on like page 71.

Fonz interactions with honey strengthen my townread on him.
Baboon 1787 pings me every time I read it. I've been brushing it off, but I'm starting to think that's a mistake. But baboon's not the one I'm most worried about right now.
Csareo 1806 sets off alarms for me knowing four and honeys alignments. I know ffery already said so then, but let me elaborate on why I think so now. He says he'd be willing to reluctantly vote four only because deadline but doesn't even seem to mention the other wagon (honey). It looks like scum not wanting to be too associated with a mislynch, but thinking it won't look as bad if he hops on "because deadline"; and completely ignoring the honey wagon and discussion, perhaps intentionally in the hopes it won't take off any further.
The conversation then got derailed off of honey
Csareo then said he couldn't keep up and was replacing out
Then there were a couple of other things that made me find Csareo scummy. On page 78.
1908 was weird/bad, wouldn't his role pm mention if his predecessor got to choose the people to get flavor on? I'd expect that to be clearly shown in the description of his ability. This rings as fake.
On his role name flavor discussion - flavor miller is possible, but he looks pretty scummy so I don't think so.
Okas behavior has been mildly scummy. By itself I think it would make him maybe a weak scumread, not even sure enough for a vote. But it's certainly not doing anything to counter the scummy stuff Csareo did/said.
tl;dr Oka is probscum.
VOTE: okapoka

Sorry for post numbers instead of quotes. Phoneposting.

[fferyllt]

So Baboon and Ffery fall into my "nothing that would be particularly tough for experienced scum to pull off" bracket. F-16 would be there, as he/Tammy were earlier, were it not for my night result. You seem to have a fairly strong meta read on one of Baboon's heads. Could you explain the "Sea of town" comment? I don't like Mara's Oka vote. I'm not sure there's any reason for suspicion that transcends "VI who replaced VI who replaced guy who made one weird vote and then flaked."

So you have a list of people too easy to see as scum, and a list of people who don't look scum but haven't done anything you consider incontrovertibly town?

[The Fonz]

So with the easy lynch list, it's not that I think there's definitely no scum there, and I have gradations of reads there - I think Lissa and OkaPoka are town, if you put a gun to my head I'd say Nashville probably is, since they're going out of their way to make enemies. 5-Off I think could be scum, based on interactions and inconsistency with how he describes his town game. Scumlists heavy on these names are either lazy or scummy.

Those lists are also not exhaustive of everyone in the game (I'm not sure if you were trying to imply that I had everyone in a 'not doing town things, but poor player' and 'not doing scum things, but good player' list, but that's the kind of tone I heard in my head when I read that sentence). but yeah, of course I have a PoE bracket of people who I'm not confident are town, but have relatively little in terms of concrete reason to suspect. Or rather, it's more that I lack concrete evidence to suspect you, because of the inactive periods, whereas Baboon seems to have done a number of (in retrospect) scum-favoring things that also seemed pro-town to me at the time. Then there's Anatole - there are a couple of things that are slightly odd about how he's played if he's scum (the fakeclaim thing, and scum with additional killing power would be OP) but he comes across so fricking dishonest - and Shark, who, lazy scumlist aside, I'm damn confident is town. F-16 is clear for now based on night stuff.

Probably only one scum in the hood. Ranking for non hood scum therefore has to have Anatole on top. You're probably second just on PoE. Nashville's probably third, and on the nashville-fferyllt comparative, they've just done more things that seem tactically stupid for scum.

What did you find on your Lissa meta trawl?

[fferyllt]

So with the easy lynch list, it's not that I think there's definitely no scum there, and I have gradations of reads there - I think Lissa and OkaPoka are town, if you put a gun to my head I'd say Nashville probably is, since they're going out of their way to make enemies. 5-Off I think could be scum, based on interactions and inconsistency with how he describes his town game. Scumlists heavy on these names are either lazy or scummy.

Those lists are also not exhaustive of everyone in the game (I'm not sure if you were trying to imply that I had everyone in a 'not doing town things, but poor player' and 'not doing scum things, but good player' list, but that's the kind of tone I heard in my head when I read that sentence). but yeah, of course I have a PoE bracket of people who I'm not confident are town, but have relatively little in terms of concrete reason to suspect. Or rather, it's more that I lack concrete evidence to suspect you, because of the inactive periods, whereas Baboon seems to have done a number of (in retrospect) scum-favoring things that also seemed pro-town to me at the time. Then there's Anatole - there are a couple of things that are slightly odd about how he's played if he's scum (the fakeclaim thing, and scum with additional killing power would be OP) but he comes across so fricking dishonest - and Shark, who, lazy scumlist aside, I'm damn confident is town. F-16 is clear for now based on night stuff.

I did kinda feel like the lists had that flavor, if they're your players of interest.

And I'm troubled that you have me in that pile but haven't done much at all to engage me and somehow sort me.

So, this is a reach-out. I've more or less pried you out of my scumpile on the basis of your claim. And I feel like the flavor fit between your role and Anatole's role suggest that at least one of you aren't scum. Possibly both.

Probably only one scum in the hood. Ranking for non hood scum therefore has to have Anatole on top. You're probably second just on PoE. Nashville's probably third, and on the nashville-fferyllt comparative, they've just done more things that seem tactically stupid for scum.

Here's a problem. I'm not scum. I don't think nashville is scum. I agree on the tactically stupid, but I also am mildly townreading mala purely on tone.

What did you find on your Lissa meta trawl?

Enough to have doubts that she's scum, which is unfortunate from a PoE perspective, but I don't think I'd vote there today. In the one scum game I checked, which I think may be her only on-site scum game, she ignored the shit out of her scumbuddy until she very opportunistically jumped on him. And I noticed multiple instances of someone advancing a reason for scumreading a town player, and she agreed without any serious second thoughts. In this game I'm seeing that she's much more tentative in her reads, and she's finding reasons to doubt a scum read along with the reasons to think a player is scum.

That sort of hedgy play usually pings as scum to me, but seeing how assertive she was about her fabricated reads in the scum game, I think the uncertainty looks townish.

[Cutty Shark]

So Baboon and Ffery fall into my "nothing that would be particularly tough for experienced scum to pull off" bracket. F-16 would be there, as he/Tammy were earlier, were it not for my night result. You seem to have a fairly strong meta read on one of Baboon's heads. Could you explain the "Sea of town" comment? I don't like Mara's Oka vote. I'm not sure there's any reason for suspicion that transcends "VI who replaced VI who replaced guy who made one weird vote and then flaked."

It's not meta; I'd sooner read ffery off meta than either ceph or mara and I don't even want to do that.

It's

1) How they react to suspicion on them: I haven't seen any attempts to rationalize things. Instead, the constant throwing their own meta (this is more ceph than mara) into everyone they're familiar with's faces is the act of someone who wants people to examine them more, not less, closely.

2) Tonal. Most of the things they posted on the two pages that I called town is them cutting through someone else's bullshit, and I'm pretty aligned on the points Ceph made wrt Nashville's pretty lousy logic there. On some level I'd say this is where gut comes in too.

3) I seriously don't think scum makes 1787 about a partner. A scumbuddy would subconsciously know that their buddy was, in fact, scummy (and therefore would know that the wagon wasn't really questionable) and probably try to deal with that wagon in some other way (like a counterwagon) than saying 'this shit be kinda weird y'all' with the tacit implication that it's scum driven, because that's a dead end trajectory.

-b

[fferyllt]

Oka, where did you go?

[Cutty Shark]

Fonz your trajectory on Lissa is fucking weird. It's way weirder than AK's.

You consistently call her town when you're emitting a read on her, but you've taken several potshots at her that don't seem to be influencing your read.

1921
2288
2503

I find myself constantly doing a double take at how to do this and go right back to calling her town (2508)

-b

[Anatole Kuragin]

Fonz - my role is of dubious utility just by being a vig shot, add to that the fact that it can presumably go through doctor/bodyguard/etc. that are being used to protect a townie and it becomes even more dubiously pro-town.

[Cutty Shark]

and Shark, who, lazy scumlist aside

Also what the fuck?

I gave four slots (lissa, oka, AK, 5-off)

You have your vote on AK so you can't have objection with that.

Your line about 5-off is "5-Off I think could be scum, based on interactions and inconsistency with how he describes his town game." so it doesn't seem like you have a problem with that read either.

Your Lissa interactions have a bunch of places you're calling things she does scummy, even if you're keeping the town read you had on her because of that early game neighborhood thing (that's what it is, yes?) but it doesn't seriously worry you? If it doesn't, why make the posts you made about her bad posts?

Are you willing to take oka town to the bank? If so, I'm listening.

So does this come down to we don't agree on the Baboon/(ffery? are you scumreading her or?) read or that my reads aren't, I don't know what the best word is, 'complicated' enough? That there isn't some

"Gotcha, here's this competent player that everyone thinks is town but I think is scum"

read in there? Why does that have to be the case?


-b

[Cutty Shark]

But the fact that there are two people that you think might be scum in my 4 person "let's look here" pool and you're willing to denounce the pool itself is also pretty fucking bad

-b

[Cutty Shark]

That sort of hedgy play usually pings as scum to me, but seeing how assertive she was about her fabricated reads in the scum game, I think the uncertainty looks townish.

Can you link me?

-b

[fferyllt]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[OkaPoka]

Im still here. I need you guys to create a scumread list for me using @oka as I tend to skim. So I can get back into this game and start reading isos.

[Cutty Shark]

You've

never

been into this game, so I don't know how you could get back into it.

You've been in the game for two weeks and done fucking

nothing

. There is no excuse for you not having engaged people yet.

-b

[fferyllt]

jsyk, posts like that make me want to lynch you on principle. And I generally don't policy lynch.

The game is on indefinite hold. You have tons of time to actually read EVERY iso.

[Cutty Shark]

Going to assume that wasn't to me.

ffery, I don't really see Lissa's play in that game deviate from this game to any degree of certainty that I'd bank anything on it. It's another really unimpressive ISO from a really, really short game.

-b

[Cutty Shark]

You have tons of time to actually read EVERY iso.

derp context clues herp derp

-b

[OkaPoka]

whatever. I realize this game is stalling and I ain't doing anything so if I don't get in this game in 2 days I'll replace out.

[fferyllt]

Going to assume that wasn't to me.

ffery, I don't really see Lissa's play in that game deviate from this game to any degree of certainty that I'd bank anything on it. It's another really unimpressive ISO from a really, really short game.

-b

Yeah, it's tenuous. Look at the way she qualifies her reads in this game and look at how seldom she qualified anything in that one. There's also a difference in the frequency of longer posts, though that could have been due to the game being pretty short.