Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[fferyllt]

heh

[The Fonz]

@ Fonz, okay I get it, I misread the intention behind your post. I wasn't "up your ass complaining" that what you did is null. I was providing my read on you and the reasons for it. Could you please stop being pissy about every little thing and take a step back?

NO U

(Or seriously - I'm not being pissy. Y'all are being pissy, and that's what's irritating me. There's no reason why ffer couldn't just have said 'What do you think of the 5-Off wagon?')

Fonz your trajectory on Lissa is fucking weird. It's way weirder than AK's.

You consistently call her town when you're emitting a read on her, but you've taken several potshots at her that don't seem to be influencing your read.

1921
2288
2503

I find myself constantly doing a double take at how to do this and go right back to calling her town (2508)

-b

It's not. I've been clear throughout that she's playing incredibly suboptimally, but I think she's town. See the 'Itch you just can't scratch' post. I mean, I could choose not to point out things I'm noticing about her, but I'm trying to be transparent about my thought process here. If people are town and playing badly, you should be encouraging them to play better. Lissa's lack of content is

incredibly irritating.

But none of the fundamentals of the 'She's town' case have changed, and indeed the uselessness isn't new.

Anyway, this wagon. Lissa and Shark are self-proclaimed apathy votes from people I'm reading town. Nashville: well, this is the least stupid vote they've made to date. I initially thought 'Hang on, voting with CS? But it's Titus who's got a bee in the bonnet about Shark, and Mala who put that vote down. Baboon could be scum. If any vote feels like trying to sneak one on, it's that. It's kind of funny that I appeal to everyone to pay some damn attention to 5-Off, and then while I'm away over the weekend a wagon springs up on him, but without anyone actually analysing him. I could support this. As CS notes, what I was saying during my Honey read was indeed an indication of things I thought could indicate scum. Part of me just wants this damn day over (hell, part of me wants to be nightkilled so I don't have to deal with being nitpicked over every damn throwaway comment). I wanna do meta first, though. I guess I could live with leaving Anatole until after a start of D3 Massclaim.

[Nashville Dreams]

@Fonz, Mala did not cast that vote on CS.

@Fferylit, F16 is an SK read not a scumread.

[Nashville Dreams]

@All, Flashwagon Baboon. Mala had a townread on that slot that's gone stale and I've always liked them as scum.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why Baboon?

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: baboon

now we're getting somewhere

[fferyllt]

@Fonz, Mala did not cast that vote on CS.

@Fferylit, F16 is an SK read not a scumread.

That doesn't change how town tammy was.

I hate the dissonance going on in your hydra.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I honestly don't think Tammy was as obvtown as I was (sorry if you are reading this is the dead PT Tammy). I guess if I squint, I could see her as

maybe

town.

[Anatole Kuragin]

The thing is, I got a not-mafia read from both of you, not a not-scum read.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Same with oka

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

How do "not-mafia" reads differ from "not-scum" reads?

[fferyllt]

I honestly don't think Tammy was as obvtown as I was (sorry if you are reading this is the dead PT Tammy). I guess if I squint, I could see her as

maybe

town.

You're reminding me of myself, but I usually keep it to myself when I'm being townread because of my partner or my predecessor instead of my own contributions.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Some actions are clearly pro-town and some are just anti-mafia. You could still be an SK.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

And what are those actions that are just "anti-mafia" but not necessarily pro-town?

[Cutty Shark]

Titus: I'm back to thinking F16 is an SK (since when...?)
AK: Hey F16 I think you might be an SK

/peanutgallery

[Anatole Kuragin]

For your slot I'd have to go back through the hydra ISO. Some key things are the way you've been looking for Mafia, but in a really under-the-radar way. You're not doing a lot to steer discussion or provide clarity which are very important for town trying to lynch scum of any sort. I do agree with some of your analysis regarding players since you started posting again recently, in regards to Honey and Nash for example. Mostly my original townread of your slot was due to tammy and me reading her the same as when she was town in timeshift, but since there is likely a third party killer here, I also have to consider each slot for that, and I don't see any thing your slot has done that makes me think "there's no way they are killing townies" just that "there's no way they are on a team of players killing townies."

For Oka it's a little easier. The way Csareo revealed his role (and others) doesn't have any scum motivation at all and essentially put himself on blast. I think he legitimately thought he was outing mafia, which an SK or neutral faction would do as well.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Titus: I'm back to thinking F16 is an SK (since when...?)
AK: Hey F16 I think you might be an SK

/peanutgallery

what do you think about that?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I honestly don't think Tammy was as obvtown as I was (sorry if you are reading this is the dead PT Tammy). I guess if I squint, I could see her as

maybe

town.

You're reminding me of myself, but I usually keep it to myself when I'm being townread because of my partner or my predecessor instead of my own contributions.

That's nice. Although I'm more interested in the basis for Anatole's reasoning than yours at this point.

[Cutty Shark]

Titus: I'm back to thinking F16 is an SK (since when...?)
AK: Hey F16 I think you might be an SK

/peanutgallery

what do you think about that?

I'll get back to you on that after I carefully formulate my answer

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

For your slot I'd have to go back through the hydra ISO. Some key things are the way you've been looking for Mafia, but in a really under-the-radar way. You're not doing a lot to steer discussion or provide clarity which are very important for town trying to lynch scum of any sort. I do agree with some of your analysis regarding players since you started posting again recently, in regards to Honey and Nash for example. Mostly my original townread of your slot was due to tammy and me reading her the same as when she was town in timeshift, but since there is likely a third party killer here, I also have to consider each slot for that, and I don't see any thing your slot has done that makes me think "there's no way they are killing townies" just that "there's no way they are on a team of players killing townies."

For Oka it's a little easier. The way Csareo revealed his role (and others) doesn't have any scum motivation at all and essentially put himself on blast. I think he legitimately thought he was outing mafia, which an SK or neutral faction would do as well.

How is it "under-the-radar?" Isn't that more based on playstyle rather than affiliation? Also, if that's something you find scummy, how does Baboon's clearly putting themselves out there since the beginning of the game affect your read on them?

[fferyllt]

I honestly don't think Tammy was as obvtown as I was (sorry if you are reading this is the dead PT Tammy). I guess if I squint, I could see her as

maybe

town.

You're reminding me of myself, but I usually keep it to myself when I'm being townread because of my partner or my predecessor instead of my own contributions.

That's nice. Although I'm more interested in the basis for Anatole's reasoning than yours at this point.

It wasn't about my read. I guess it was more about figuring you out as a player in general than specific to this game.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I honestly don't think Tammy was as obvtown as I was (sorry if you are reading this is the dead PT Tammy). I guess if I squint, I could see her as

maybe

town.

You're reminding me of myself, but I usually keep it to myself when I'm being townread because of my partner or my predecessor instead of my own contributions.

That's nice. Although I'm more interested in the basis for Anatole's reasoning than yours at this point.

It wasn't about my read. I guess it was more about figuring you out as a player in general than specific to this game.

Your post actually reminded me of you in my game wondering why Regfan was only reading Empire but not you and ultimately winded up being scum.

[Anatole Kuragin]

For your slot I'd have to go back through the hydra ISO. Some key things are the way you've been looking for Mafia, but in a really under-the-radar way. You're not doing a lot to steer discussion or provide clarity which are very important for town trying to lynch scum of any sort. I do agree with some of your analysis regarding players since you started posting again recently, in regards to Honey and Nash for example. Mostly my original townread of your slot was due to tammy and me reading her the same as when she was town in timeshift, but since there is likely a third party killer here, I also have to consider each slot for that, and I don't see any thing your slot has done that makes me think "there's no way they are killing townies" just that "there's no way they are on a team of players killing townies."

For Oka it's a little easier. The way Csareo revealed his role (and others) doesn't have any scum motivation at all and essentially put himself on blast. I think he legitimately thought he was outing mafia, which an SK or neutral faction would do as well.

How is it "under-the-radar?" Isn't that more based on playstyle rather than affiliation? Also, if that's something you find scummy, how does Baboon's clearly putting themselves out there since the beginning of the game affect your read on them?

It can be a playstyle thing for sure, like any other scumtell in mafia. And like every other scumtell it's conditional on the player. Sometimes it comes off suspicious and sometimes it doesn't, just like being outspoken. Baboon has rubbed me the wrong way since the beginning whereas until today I was pretty firmly pro-fonz so I see babs as a better lynch.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Bork, what is your read on Ffery?

[OkaPoka]

Pages 17-20 skimmed nothing of importance. 5 off is quickly becoming my strongest town read by far.

Lots of neighborhood talking.

Page 22 is really worth the time to read

Spoiler:

yeah, even if I wasn't ignoring you, and refusing to answer your question, I would highly doubt you would be able to understand where my mind is coming from, even if I were to explain it since you can't even seem to pick up why the basic reasons to why plagiarizing stuff I said, to increase your credibility all the while, attempting to decrease our credibility within the game is scummy as fuck. My points aren't ever based in empirical data, neither are the reasons to why I read people as scum or town, and why I trust people when I do. The game state doesn't need to be all that great for me to be able to get a read, and if it did, I wouldn't be able to pick off reads via first impression to which is what I generally do. No, my reasons are generally based of off theoretical ideas, and stuff that end up confusing me when I think about it to long. I see play from a systemic point of view, underlying motives that involves everyone in the game, and not just a few people of which you're interacting with. It takes to much of my time, and energy to explain my reasons to you. It takes a hellalot of my time to explain my reasons to anyone, including my own hydra partner so the people I am taking my time to work with, and understand where I'm coming from pretty much have to be my town-reads

For some reason I really hate this post. It really seems like scum is trying to conjure some excuses to defend themselves, and making a bunch of reasons up to seem towny.

yeah, even if I wasn't ignoring you, and refusing to answer your question, I would highly doubt you would be able to understand where my mind is coming from, even if I were to explain it since you can't even seem to pick up why the basic reasons to why plagiarizing stuff I said, to increase your credibility all the while, attempting to decrease our credibility within the game is scummy as fuck. My points aren't ever based in empirical data, neither are the reasons to why I read people as scum or town, and why I trust people when I do. The game state doesn't need to be all that great for me to be able to get a read, and if it did, I wouldn't be able to pick off reads via first impression to which is what I generally do. No, my reasons are generally based of off theoretical ideas, and stuff that end up confusing me when I think about it to long. I see play from a systemic point of view, underlying motives that involves everyone in the game, and not just a few people of which you're interacting with. It takes to much of my time, and energy to explain my reasons to you. It takes a hellalot of my time to explain my reasons to anyone, including my own hydra partner so the people I am taking my time to work with, and understand where I'm coming from pretty much have to be my town-reads

Fuck it, I'm gonna make a last go at explaining why Baboon should be lynched. I'll start with Baboon's shitty read on me:

We weren't told who is in the neighborhood, but someone in there was told that scum was part of it. So, scum could literally just lurk, gain information secretly, and negate any pro-town neighborhood-strategy. I just don't see the point of keeping it secret or harping on it. I'd rather move on and talk about things that matter. Like Baboon's alignment.

The basis of Baboon's certainty that I'm scum. Baboon had suggested that scum might be lurking in the Intern PM a couple hours earlier. I hadn't seen Baboon's post yet because I hadn't taken a look at the Intern PM for a few hours.

(But even if I had, I don't see what the problem is. Assume I saw Baboon's post. What am I doing here? I'm taking Baboon's idea and using it as justification for revealing the existence of the Intern PM. My post isn't about the possibility that scum are lurking, it's an explanation for why I did what I did. Assuming I got the scum lurking idea from Baboon, wouldn't it make sense to say I was moved to do what I did because of Baboon?)

Pretty basically, FT is taking some of her thoughts from the neighborhood and presenting them as his own (the bit about possible fifth lurking neighborscum)

I didn't see that in the neighborhood, but if Mara wants credit for that idea, she's welcome to take it. Doesn't really matter. But the idea that I stole her thoughts and presented them as my own is not true.

Here, I clarify that I didn't see her post in the Intern PM. I also say that if she wants credit for the idea, she can have it. The last thing on my mind is credit for the scum-lurking-in-the-Intern-PM idea. But I was intrigued by the idea that "stealing" the scum-lurking-in-the-Intern-PM idea was scummy, so I ask:

Baboon, just to clear something up, I never read what you wrote in the neighborhood. But even if I did, so what? Why is that behavior scummy?

She refused to answer for a couple hundred posts. Now, she kinda answers with this:

I would highly doubt you would be able to understand where my mind is coming from, even if I were to explain it since you can't even seem to pick up why the basic reasons to why plagiarizing stuff I said, to increase your credibility all the while, attempting to decrease our credibility within the game is scummy as fuck.

Which is such bullshit for a number of reasons. First, I explicitly gave Baboon credit for the idea, so her claim that I'm trying to decrease her credibility is bullshit. Hell, I don't see how taking the scum-is-lurking idea even increases my credibility, much less decreases hers? She clearly posted the idea in the Intern PM before I posted in here. So what's the scum motivation for basing my behavior on that idea? What is the scum motivation for any of the posts I've just quoted. What is the scum motivaiton for 191? How does that post increase my credibility while decreased Baboon's credibility?

Which is bullshit. This post, right here, is how I know Baboon never considered the scum motivation for her shiny plagiarism argument. And I wish more people just saw how obvious this all is, but since most of you probably won't, I'm gonna help you guys out and explain. This is what's going on. Baboon is grabbing onto a shiny idea -- the mistaken notion that I stole her idea -- and is running with it. She clearly hasn't considered the scum motivation BEHIND this shiny point. If she had, she'd have noticed earlier that there isn't any. And she would have dropped that argument, along with her certainty that I'm scum. Butshe's just running with it as far as she can. Still running with it. Why does this mean Baboon is scum? Behold:

If you want to get me lynched, I suggest finding actual scum motivation or, at least try to. I'm well aware of how easy it is to latch on to the shinest thing, as scum though!

This is Baboon speaking as town. And what she's saying is that scum often do exactly what she's doing here. They find something shiny -- stealing someone's idea? -- and latch on without ever evaluating the "actual scum motivation." So, now with this post, we got Baboon (or Mara, same shit) telling us how she plays as scum and how she plays as town. Town means looking for scum motivations, not just the shiny surface-level behaviors. Scum means finding a shiny surface-level behavior, or in this case, misrepresentation (since I didn't even see her idea before using it), latching on, and disregarding whether the shiny object has any scum motivation underneath.

So please, F-16, Tammy, 5-Off, Cutty, fellow townies whoever you are, seriously interrogate Baboon's thought process. Is Baboon latching onto something shiny? Or is Baboon looking for actual scum motivation? And if you find yourself leaning towards the former of these options, for the love of God, do something about it. Please.

And then this. Looking over the fact that four was town, I can know this was town motivated. And holy shit this is the best wall I have ever seen. I really love this quote, and I can start to see a baboon scum reasoning.

Also, Ceph and I are/were kinda laughing because we both think you're kinda digging yourself deeper with how you're trying to appease people, and how you're unwilling to step on people toes unless someone steps on yours first.

I also don't weave stories, nearly everyone knows everything that comes out of my mouth is pretty much true regardless of my alignment, and I actually tag on reasons I think are scummy, even as scum

I feel like baboon is twisting some words here.

@ 5-off:
Why is day phase one useless? I get the sense that your posting is bidding your time which now makes sense, but I guess it's strange to me that a person who relies on gut would discount the first day (as people who usually do so rely on vc nk analysis, pr roles too). For reference, my gut is usually active very early before I even really think about the game.
Also, when is the time to start having reads?

@ fonz:
Lissa was not in any danger of getting lynched nor did anybody even scum read her beforehand. Why would you consider voting her to be “hounding”? What I've gathered from my experience and advice in these games is that scum have a certain self consciousness when it comes to their vote. I vote where my biggest suspicion lies, because that's what makes a townie threatening to scum, what makes my words actually have any worth to anyone. But you felt that it was better to keep your vote on someone that you were wanting a reaction to, even though your vote literally looked like a no content vote, same as his. You admitted that lissa was scummier, so why is voting her counterproductive to a reaction?
To me, it looked like you didn't want to be accused of attacking weak targets, but didn't also want to look like you were not pursuing anyone. Hence the hesitation.

Also discrediting my post while saying you can't read me is giving me all sorts of scum pings on you. If you have an accusation against me, you can say them. Saying my post just “sucks” is just an unnecessary attack that townies just don't do. and Sucking isn't scummy either.

And @bork you mean 51? It's voting where your suspicions lie is the problem. I believe the person who taught me this described it as “not voting like a townie” and I promise you many scum are guilty of it. Do you want examples? I can give them to you.

@Nashville dreaming: Do you not want to answer me?

@Ak: what was your lissa reason because of? Sorry if I missed it.

I can't follow the 4t or bp cases, all the evidence on either side is just too soft for me. I wanna say that this implies that they're both town and the scum isn't particularly striving for one over the other. and BP I still don't see a reason to use the neighborhood as a lynch pool, do you really think up to 4 lynches is worth a scum (or possibly none)?

Seems towny to me, but also Active Lurking alert. However I have noticed that this post seems EXTREMELY cautious and does not really interact with any players. I feel that honey bee is trying to play don't catch my partner.

Why is nashville so focused on tammy?

In fact, I'll claim it

Georgio. Just Georgio.

Good luck with that shit

-b

Cautious of you cutty yet very towny.

@ 5-off:
Why is day phase one useless? I get the sense that your posting is bidding your time which now makes sense, but I guess it's strange to me that a person who relies on gut would discount the first day (as people who usually do so rely on vc nk analysis, pr roles too). For reference, my gut is usually active very early before I even really think about the game.
Also, when is the time to start having reads?

@ fonz:
Lissa was not in any danger of getting lynched nor did anybody even scum read her beforehand. Why would you consider voting her to be “hounding”? What I've gathered from my experience and advice in these games is that scum have a certain self consciousness when it comes to their vote. I vote where my biggest suspicion lies, because that's what makes a townie threatening to scum, what makes my words actually have any worth to anyone. But you felt that it was better to keep your vote on someone that you were wanting a reaction to, even though your vote literally looked like a no content vote, same as his. You admitted that lissa was scummier, so why is voting her counterproductive to a reaction?
To me, it looked like you didn't want to be accused of attacking weak targets, but didn't also want to look like you were not pursuing anyone. Hence the hesitation.

Also discrediting my post while saying you can't read me is giving me all sorts of scum pings on you. If you have an accusation against me, you can say them. Saying my post just “sucks” is just an unnecessary attack that townies just don't do. and Sucking isn't scummy either.

And @bork you mean 51? It's voting where your suspicions lie is the problem. I believe the person who taught me this described it as “not voting like a townie” and I promise you many scum are guilty of it. Do you want examples? I can give them to you.

@Nashville dreaming: Do you not want to answer me?

@Ak: what was your lissa reason because of? Sorry if I missed it.

I can't follow the 4t or bp cases, all the evidence on either side is just too soft for me. I wanna say that this implies that they're both town and the scum isn't particularly striving for one over the other. and BP I still don't see a reason to use the neighborhood as a lynch pool, do you really think up to 4 lynches is worth a scum (or possibly none)?

In fact, I'll claim it

Georgio. Just Georgio.

Good luck with that shit

-b

Okay so the Csareo thing went down. I dislike how gossamer was trying to squeeze stuff out, and how fonz refused to give out flavor.

Gossamer goes to scummy, fonz goes to scumlist.

842 Lissa parrots Fonz. Dislike. Fonz keeps warning Csareo to stop revealing stuff. Null
845 Seriously Nashville? A meta argument? Goes to my scum list too.

Insert massive scapegoating of Csareo. Cutty, Nashville, and Baboon are on the scapegoat hunting.

920 Trying to buddy are you? I can see that Honey.

AS of Page 38.

Scumlist: Nash, Lissa, Baboon

Semi Scum: Cutty, and Fonz

TOWN: 5off and fourtrouble