Mini 1624: Joss Whedon Mafia: The Musical (Game Over)

[Murder of Crows]

There is too little condecsension and too much OMGUS but I'll elaborate in a bit. Would like Nacho to explain the townread and I'd also like Anti to explain it considering her reaction to his push on her in Serum and Steel was way, way, way different.

i don't remember it being way way different

The biggest difference I saw was that Ffery upon being pushed as town normally goes into observation mode making remarks about the gamestate. Whereas when scum, she puts emphasis on posting analysis/reads to talk her way out of it and as a last resort cuts down on her interactions with other players. What similarities did you find here vs Serum and Steel?

I'm going to respond to this after you and Anti finish.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

That was supposed to be joke. Perhaps I'm not as funny as I think but I'm lost as to how in the world you read that as condescending.

And are you actually claiming that I'm scum because I'm condescending (by your definition) and I'm scum for calling you scum for being condescending (which I wasn't, but you misunderstood it and concluded that I was scum)?

No, it's not based on hypocrisy if that's what you're asking.

I'm not pushing it, not yet, anyway, because I'm rolling it around in my head. I don't like that it was a reactive thing, but a bunch of niggles crystalized all at once when I saw where you were heading. I expected that interacting with me, especially when I was being way more candid than I usually am about what's running through my head, wouldn't have solidified a scumread.

I'd rather you push it. Claiming a surefire scumread on me and then doing nothing about it isn't helping me develop a read. At least if you make a confident push, I'll be able to nail down a read based off of that.

[Murder of Crows]

I'm more interested in being certain about my read of you than about helping you read me.

[Antihero]

A weed is a plant considered undesirable in a particular situation, "a plant in the wrong place". Examples commonly are plants unwanted in human-controlled settings, such as farm fields, gardens, lawns, and parks. Taxonomically, the term "weed" has no botanical significance, because a plant that is a weed in one context is not a weed when growing in a situation where it is in fact wanted, and where one species of plant is a valuable crop plant, another species in the same genus might be a serious weed, such as a wild bramble growing among cultivated loganberries. Many plants that people widely regard as weeds also are intentionally grown in gardens and other cultivated settings. The term also is applied to any plant that grows or reproduces aggressively, or is invasive outside its native habitat. More broadly "weed" occasionally is applied pejoratively to species outside the plant kingdom, species that can survive in diverse environments and reproduce quickly; in this sense it has even been applied to humans.

Click here to learn more.

ok




so is there any chance i'm going to hear about why the bassist wagon was so great?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't care about your read on me. I don't care that if you scumread me or don't trust my reads. I don't need you to work with me or collaborate with me. What I need you to do if you are town is to show me that you are town so I can decide whether or not I need to derail your lynch because that's what is going to happen by default. (this should remind you of some Serum and Steel post even if not alignment indicative).

[Antihero]

i mean, aside from AP pissing me off a little, i don't see any offensive stuff coming from murder. what's wrong here?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Everything. But I'm not sure how to explain it beyond the fact that the way she interacted with me felt manipulative. I'm still trying to sort Ffery out and if I still think she's scum after that, I'll make a wall case about it so give me some time.

[Murder of Crows]

I don't care about your read on me. I don't care that if you scumread me or don't trust my reads. I don't need you to work with me or collaborate with me. What I need you to do if you are town is to show me that you are town so I can decide whether or not I need to derail your lynch because that's what is going to happen by default. (this should remind you of some Serum and Steel post even if not alignment indicative).

So your meta about me going into observation mode. I do that, but that's not all I do, especially when a game day is ending or when it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that I'm getting mislynched, which is what I thought was happening on day 1 at the point where I decided that developing a read on Cabd had to be my priority.

Some of my posts from a gameday in the Board Game upick mini when everyone, including me knew I'd be the lynch, and where my sole focus was in trying to help town lynch right at lylo the next day.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5818141

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5818200

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5819766

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5819834

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5819904

And so on.

My hydra was in that position because I had not been playing anywhere near my usual town game because I'd gone to Florida for a month to take care of my grandmother who was recovering from cancer treatment. I was grabbing minutes here and there to catch up on the game and it wasn't enough.

Day 1 here was a very similar situation to me, but with no flips I didn't have a lot to analyze yet. Day 1 was an extremely sparse day in terms of the kinds of stuff I usually look at, and part of the reason for that was that I wasn't active and poking around and trying to make things happen.

So, I did what I could with the time and left over mental capacity I had.

If you want to ding me for poor analysis go right ahead. But, your meta is incomplete.

Your meta case also doesn't take into account that Newbie game we both replaced into where Bert did a paranoid flip out and led my mislynch. I recall putting some (less than stellar) analysis into that game, and IIRC completely rescinded my scum case on JasonWazza as my reads just disintegrated and turned to dust.

[Murder of Crows]

Everything. But I'm not sure how to explain it beyond the fact that the way she interacted with me felt manipulative. I'm still trying to sort Ffery out and if I still think she's scum after that, I'll make a wall case about it so give me some time.

I think this is why I get scumread pretty frequently when playing with people who don't know me well. I get rhetorical under fire.

But, I think I do it more as town than I do as scum because I have bedrock confidence that my eventual flip will bear out the sincerity of my words, however I choose to smith them. It's one of those things I hope to be able to eventually emulate in my scum game.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I remember reading Board Games and your analysis there was incredibly detailed and thorough. My issue here is the minimalism of your analysis which I feel is a feature of your scumgame more than your towngame. BUT, I'll take into account less time for mafia and D1/no flips in factoring in my read. I'll double check games where you were pressured D1 and check back in. As far as I remember you went into observation mode both times you were pressured D1 (Serum and Steel and Red Wine). I don't recall you being pressured D1 any other game. I think there is a game where buldermar mislynched you so I'll probably check that one.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Co-operating with me when I gave an arrogant as fuck ultimatum doesn't feel like town-Ffery which is another one of my concerns.

[Murder of Crows]

It was detailed and thorough and came after weeks of too little too late, and fortunately I had scum isos and interactions to analyze.

This game is mush by comparison. It's a lot closer to Red Wine day 1. But neither Serum and Steel nor Red Wine ended a game day with me in lynch jeopardy.

None of my games on MS that I can recall are like my play in this one. Regardless of alignment.

Someone who hasn't meta'd me to within an inch of my life could miss some of the key differences.

I didn't think you would.

Which is a big hunk of why I reacted the way I did to your posts 1365 and 1366.

1366 in particular pinged. I look forward to watching from the dead thread as you try to paint yonce as scummy in spite of my flip when your case on her currently is that her interactions with me look like scum-scum.

[Murder of Crows]

Co-operating with me when I gave an arrogant as fuck ultimatum doesn't feel like town-Ffery which is another one of my concerns.

What ultimatum did you give me?

Right now I'm mostly trying to figure out if I'm right about you. Your meta gaps are pretty damn concerning.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Post 1404. I expecting something more rebellious than you just falling in line with what I asked. You describe yourself as a rebel and most times as town, you are a rebel especially if something/someone annoys you.

[Murder of Crows]

You flatter yourself then. I skipped over most of that post.

The basis of my postures in this thread come down to my positional strength. I have none. I'm probably getting mislynched. The majority of the players aren't even participating at this point - something that apparently doesn't concern you. There's NOTHING in this thread to respond to right now but what you've posted to me. And I've pointed out that having NOTHING to respond to is part of the reason why it's been so damned hard to get into this game even though I now at least have time to spend on it.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Eww, I hate the sympathy appeals. It is what Ceph and DV did to me in Tales when I was leading a lynch on his hydra - appealed to sympathy and how I was this big bad aggressive player pushing a mislynch on poor witty Ceph and DV and managed to squirm out of it and wagon me instead. It if fucking frustrating when you pull the "poor me" routine and expect other people to vote me so you can hop in the back. If you are scum and somehow manage to get me mislynched in this game, I want you front and center of the attack. I want everyone to know who is pushing my lynch and who is responsible for it. So portraying yourself as a sympathetic character is irritating.

[Murder of Crows]

ffs.

There's no way I'm getting you lynched today.

In my current position I'd have to be dead certain you're scum and even then screaming it from the rafters probably wouldn't do it.

I remember you thinking I was nuts when I said that Pieguy had no chance of getting Chandra lynched on day 3 of Serum and Steel. But as it turned out, even getting gladiated didn't result in his lynch.

Games have currents and eddies. There is nothing going on here that is going to lead to your lynch. I don't even see how the game dynamic could shift that far right now.

[Murder of Crows]

Also, what you're calling sympathy appeals are realism. I know what I'm capable of given the current game state and my current mental state.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What I was worried about was you portraying yourself as an innocent, downtrodden hero who ought to be underestimated. And Antihero seems to be supporting you. Nacho seems to be supporting you. There is a hell of a lot that needs to be done before you can be lynched not to mention I need to refine my read. As for reads on my slot, no one really seem to have any reads on me currently besides you and Anti saying I'm scum.

In any case, I think this back and forth is getting frustrating for both of us so I'm going to stop posting and let others post their thoughts and catch up (unless this is genuinely helping you get a read on me).

[Antihero]

i think the only thing being proven now is that meta sucks donkey balls

i hope your wall case doesn't rely on it f16

[Murder of Crows]

It's not. I keep tuning into my gut to see if I'm replying to you like I think you're town.

I'm not. But, I'm not really convinced you're scum either.

UNVOTE

This isn't the game for it. But someday I hope I can figure out a more productive way to work with you when I *do* think you're town. When you joined the game I wasn't scumreading your slot and my approach reflected that.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Meta is actually really useful for people who know how to use it. With that said, I'll update my read on Ffery when I get a better handle on it.

And the Ceph lynch didn't happen because scum were opposing it and I thought it would be beneficial for scum to keep him around. If I hadn't and supported Pie in his push, it would have happened. Not sure if it is relevant here though so I'll leave it at that.

[Murder of Crows]

Given how many scum there actually were in that game, the chances were better than I estimated at the time. But I don't think a Chandra lynch could happen while Trustworthy and I both opposed it.

If I could have figured out what I wanted to do in that game, I could probably have made it happen. I thought I had leverage.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Not really true. Me and Pie had all the leverage with the town. If we wanted a lynch to go through, it would have. I don't see a huge deal of difference with regards to leverage here.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So I went through Serum and Steel again to check which lynches went through and they were almost all the lynches that scum wanted to see through (at least until Vezok's cc) and you were suspected as scum by the town for quite a while - it was mostly the scum townreading you. So, I really don't get what you feel about this game is so different leverage-wise.