Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Green Crayons]

(Also, don't overdo the Cheese Shop. I spent my first year here hitting that place up at least three times a week for lunch. And not only did my bank account hate me, but I really,

really

don't like eating there any more because I just overdid it. Even though it's where company always wants to eat when they visit. Be forewarned!

And enjoy undergrad. Good years, good times. Friends of mine who did undergrad here said it was a good place.)

[Riddleton]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Anti-town

"So, yeah, using all the time is anti-town. So are speed lynches with no real analysis of the day - but at least everyone seems to understand *that*."

From the link you provided. The second sentence is something that I guess you didn't manage to read.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... nfirmation

"The results prove this tell to not be particularly reliable."
"As of 12/29/10, this Tell is considered by the author to be Null."

Have you actually read the links you provided?

And this too: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _be_Random

This one seems kind of irrelevant to your argument, tbh. Not sure why you posted this link.

Twas the night before Christmas and all through the thread
There was voting at random to see who'd wind up dead
Scum was lining their lynches for the beginning with care
Maybe even by putting a vote on someone who was not yet there...

VOTE: whatisswag

Why?

This vote seems opportunistic, like it's jumping on someone with the ol helpful "defend the people who aren't in the thread yet". Easy townpoints, especially from the people you're defending, and honestly, this is one of the weakest reasons to vote the guy. Personally I think his RVS stuff is fine, although his repeated preaching about it being a serious vote is kind of annoying and possibly scummy but that could just be me being annoyed.

What makes the vote opportunistic rather than justified/reasonable?

Twas the night before Christmas and all through the thread
There was voting at random to see who'd

wind up

be dead
Scum was lining their lynches for

the beginning

day 1 with care
Maybe even by

putting a vote on someone

voting one who was not yet there...

Your metre sucks, I fixed that for you
Maybe explain how his vote is scum too?

Fuck hydra slipping, I won't do again
By endgame the slips will prob add up to 10

I don't know what a hydra is or how a hydra can slip.

I can't comprehend a 'town way of thinking'
Please explain more, your argument's slipping.
I don't vote a guy for his logic failing
But when anti-town, self meta is flailing.

Swag's new, please understand so
For him to be scum would make my heart woe
His playstyle is genuine and oh so real
For newbie scum to do this would be surreal

I don't think that's a good argument. Some people are just naturals at this game. Assuming someone isn't going to play stealthily based on their lack of experience is giving people an unfair pass and disallows us from looking deeper into their posts than the superficial.

So far, I'm not really sure how I feel about Swagalicious. His insistence to vote in the way that he does and his justification for it makes him seem anti-town to me, but at the same time, his quick end to the RVS gives him a lot of credit to me. I think I'm leaning more towards scumilicious than the town read.

Also, someone explain to me what hypoclaiming is and how it is different from roleclaiming.

Well evidently you don't see him as a "natural" to this game if you criticised half of the links he's posting! My point is I see this as new-ish town play. It's transparent and genuine.

[Riddleton]

@Riddle:

I'd recruit a null read. Because there's no weak modifier (ie. I don't die if I misrecruit) it basically acts as a 1-shot cop.

How long did it take for you to come up with this response?

Not so long. I've been thinking about this before the game began.

[Whatisswag]

The way I scum hunt is relating the person I see to myself (another way of saying: I dont scum hunt by logic, I scum hunt by gut).

B.

I have no real justification for this beyond gut, but Post 109 feels town. I'm telling myself now to disregard that pretty weak gut feeling.

I say this as town, and I dont see the scum motivation in this to just say "oh my logic sucks so I am going by gut, hope you understand."

I went more in-depth because I didn't have a coherent feeling towards Fairies. Hence the lack of any comment about her. The same goes for any other player I have yet to comment about. Your inquiry prompted me to solidify how I felt. I conveyed the process and end result, per request.

Yes. It's not a "slip" (I hate that buzzword) or anything of that magnitude, but it's a comment that looks more like clever scum than town.

As scum, I tend to view all town players to be similar. But Green distinguishes ILF from the other two which seems like genuine opinion rather than a fake opinion.

[awesomeusername]

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas.

Catchup incoming.

[awesomeusername]

@Riddleton: If you were a mason who would you recruit and why?

Is this a good thing to discuss or does it give too much information to scum?

I don't see why it would be a bad thing to discuss or how much info it might give to scum. Please enlighten me.

My first impression of this setup was that it would be important to keep the masons hidden, which means we shouldn't talk about them. I wasn't sure whether that was the strategy though (I'm still not), so I asked.

I was actually town reading swag by the end of page 2 for proactively coming up with suspicions and getting us out of RVS. Corpses has a good point with the "mechanical" scumhunting, I think, though. I'm gonna have to check to see whether he usually relies on tells like that or not. For now he's town, though.
@swag: How strong are your reads? In other words, how subject to change do you think they will be? Also, do you still think Rubik was scum trying to get more pre-game talk given that he still hasn't posted?

elle sorta pinged to me, too, around the time she was jumped on. Hearing her reasoning makes me feel better about her, though. I don't see the frustration swag pointed out in 89.

I was gonna say Kaboose was null because he probably didn't realize we were out of RVS yet, but he read the thread well enough to know nobody had voted him. :/

I thought fairies seemed a little overly defensive in her entrance, but I like 107. I like the fact that she read the links swag posted, and that she asks about terms she doesn't understand. Makes me feel like she's trying to figure things out.
@fairies: Can you elaborate on how Riddle and swag's interaction seems scum-scum? Is it because they're town reading each other?

I'm having trouble getting reads on Grib and GC because I keep getting them mixed up. The combined posts of mostly-black with green avatar seem pro-town to me, but I don't have much of a read on either yet. I disagree that corpses was shooting down swag's contributions more than providing contributions (119), but I like GC's thought processes and openness.
@GC: I don't understand what you're getting at with 117. What did Riddle's answer tell you?

@davesaz: I see a lot of questions from you but you're not really supplying any opinions yourself. What do you think of Grib, riddle, and swag?

My early town reads are swag, GC, corpses, and riddle.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kaboose
You're welcome for the vote. Now talk to me.

[Grib]

I'm having trouble getting reads on Grib and GC because I keep getting them mixed up. The combined posts of mostly-black with green avatar seem pro-town to me, but I don't have much of a read on either yet.

My early town reads are swag, GC, corpses, and riddle.

Did you catch something while writing this post that suddenly made Green Crayons a townread?

[Grib]

(Also, don't overdo the Cheese Shop. I spent my first year here hitting that place up at least three times a week for lunch. And not only did my bank account hate me, but I really,

really

don't like eating there any more because I just overdid it. Even though it's where company always wants to eat when they visit. Be forewarned!

And enjoy undergrad. Good years, good times. Friends of mine who did undergrad here said it was a good place.)

I have a job, so setting a teeny bit of money aside for cheese probably won't come back to haunt me. All I ever really get is a quarter pound of whatever cheese and half a loaf of French bread because I'm boring.

But yeah I guess I could do with limiting the number of times I eat there per week. >_>

[Green Crayons]

@awesome:

@GC: I don't understand what you're getting at with 117. What did Riddle's answer tell you?

Nothing, really, and that's fine. I realized it was a bad question about five seconds after posing it.

[Whatisswag]

@swag: How strong are your reads?

Not very strong
Green is towny.
Riddle is null-town
Rest are null.

[Whatisswag]

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

[Whatisswag]

UNVOTE:

[elleheathen]

@elle:

Also, congrats, you managed to find one of the few instances in which a random wagon actually gets scum. Now there are no associatives to be made D2, no analysis to pull on D1, you're basically at square 1.

@ILF: Hannibal's avatar is from Civilization IV, amazing game. I like your last post, seems townish, stuff before that, very light scumread, so nullread for now.

I think awesomeusername is town. elle's vote is weird if Whatisswag is town.

Why would that make it weird?

This question was responded to in Post 55.

You had no follow up. What was the purpose of your question in Post 52?

#55 is just calling my vote in #35 'opportunistic for townpoints', not answering why my vote is 'weird if whatisswag is town'.

It struck me as lynch-lining - was hoping for a better read on corpses with the answer.

[elleheathen]

VOTE: awesomeusername

[elleheathen]

Besides what Grib had already posted in #156, the catch up post seems less like a genuine town paranoia and more like a scum wanting to keep their lynch options open.

[Grib]

davesaz, I'll get back to killing you shortly.

VOTE: awesomeusername

Some things I'd like you to elaborate on:

@swag: How strong are your reads? In other words, how subject to change do you think they will be? Also, do you still think Rubik was scum trying to get more pre-game talk given that he still hasn't posted?

What is the purpose of the first question, and why are you asking Whatisswag specifically? Feel free to wait until he answers your questions before you answer mine.

The shift in focus onto a player who seems to not have even confirmed with the mod yet feels very scummy. The game starts when 10/13 confirm, so even if someone attempted to stall, it would ultimately be out of their hands.

I'm having trouble getting reads on Grib and GC because I keep getting them mixed up.

Yet you have a townread on Green Crayons, and seem to still be undecided on me.

If our avatars confuse you that much, you could just look at our names instead. They're very different.

[awesomeusername]

My early town reads are swag, GC, corpses, and riddle.

Did you catch something while writing this post that suddenly made Green Crayons a townread?

No, I just hadn't gotten all my thoughts together. GC seems really pro-town with his openness and his thoughts are insightful, but on closer inspection I don't see a whole lot that strikes me as alignment indicative. Part of me really wants to townread him because he's insightful and putting a lot of effort in, but I know I shouldn't because that's not necessarily alignment indicative. So I may have put him as null and as town in different places. Right now I think I'll tentatively place him in my town pile (158 helps too).

@swag: Cool. I was mostly checking that you weren't planning on sticking to those "tells" like confirming late. Incidentally, this style of play seems typical for swag, so he's probably town.

@elle: Hmm. Looking back, I can see how my catch-up post looks kinda fence-sitting-y. Is that what you mean? I guess I just don't have very many solid reads yet.

@Grib:

@swag: How strong are your reads? In other words, how subject to change do you think they will be? Also, do you still think Rubik was scum trying to get more pre-game talk given that he still hasn't posted?

What is the purpose of the first question, and why are you asking Whatisswag specifically? Feel free to wait until he answers your questions before you answer mine.

He answered already. I'm a little concerned with swag's tendency to rely on tells and stick to that. While he feels genuine (and that's why I'm town reading him), he seems to be mechanically shunting players into boxes based on things like when they confirm. That's fine at this point in the game, but I hadn't seen any signs that the reads were going to change.

The shift in focus onto a player who seems to not have even confirmed with the mod yet feels very scummy. The game starts when 10/13 confirm, so even if someone attempted to stall, it would ultimately be out of their hands.

Exactly. I don't think swag's original reason for suspecting Rubik holds anymore.

I'm having trouble getting reads on Grib and GC because I keep getting them mixed up.

Yet you have a townread on Green Crayons, and seem to still be undecided on me.

If our avatars confuse you that much, you could just look at our names instead. They're very different.

Yeah, sorry. You kinda slipped under my radar. This interaction with you feels fairly town, though I know I tend to townread people who suspect me. I don't remember much about your other posts to be honest. Grib is null-town.

[I Love Fairies]

@fairies: Can you elaborate on how Riddle and swag's interaction seems scum-scum? Is it because they're town reading each other?

Sort of. I'm scum reading Riddle because I feel like he's either whiteknighting or protecting Swagerella, both of which, to me, are indicative of scum attempting to get towncred. I just feel like there have been more going on than just the situation with Swagimus but Riddle has only focused his thoughts and efforts in regards to the Swagina Situation. That's my justification for thinking Riddle is protecting Swaggerello an unnecessarily heavy amount.

I said I'm less certain about Swagginy being scum because while Riddle's actions are scum, that does not necessarily reflect on Swaggles as he might just be ignoring Riddle's attempt to whiteknight him, which I understand, I've done the same in previous games, but at the same time, it's possible he is just trying to distance himself in case his case is doomed.

However, this:

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

Weakens his position in my mind. It's very possible that he's just looking for a specific reaction from a specific person before he calls out the person he is scum reading, but that doesn't seem likely to me. To me, this just seems like he's trying to paint himself as an oracle-like player who has uniquely beneficial insight into the game, which, I'm sorry, you don't (and neither do the rest of us).

I see no situation in which it would be more beneficial to claim to have a scumread and not elaborate than to elaborate on that or to just not post their claim of a scumread.

I'd also like to see some explanation behind his reads. It's easy for someone to just fake a read in the way that he did. It's still easy to fake an explanation as well, but it's still more difficult and gives us important insight in the event that he's town or information in which to strengthen a case against him should we further suspect him of being scum. SwaggerMaster, will you enlighten me on your thought process behind your reads? Don't explain your scumread if you still find it beneficial to leave it unspoken, while I think that's a bad idea, you might not, so I give you a pass on that one. Otherwise, I would like to understand your thoughts on your scumread and your decision not to reveal it.

[Whatisswag]

@fairies: Can you elaborate on how Riddle and swag's interaction seems scum-scum? Is it because they're town reading each other?

Sort of. I'm scum reading Riddle because I feel like he's either whiteknighting or protecting Swagerella, both of which, to me, are indicative of scum attempting to get towncred. I just feel like there have been more going on than just the situation with Swagimus but Riddle has only focused his thoughts and efforts in regards to the Swagina Situation. That's my justification for thinking Riddle is protecting Swaggerello an unnecessarily heavy amount.

I have seen people calling me newb town as town players themselves. To me this is null-town, as I have defended other towns as town too.

I said I'm less certain about Swagginy being scum because while Riddle's actions are scum, that does not necessarily reflect on Swaggles as he might just be ignoring Riddle's attempt to whiteknight him, which I understand, I've done the same in previous games, but at the same time, it's possible he is just trying to distance himself in case his case is doomed.

However, this:

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

Weakens his position in my mind. It's very possible that he's just looking for a specific reaction from a specific person before he calls out the person he is scum reading, but that doesn't seem likely to me.

Yes, if I point that person right out, that person might just change playstyle and it would be kind of harder to read if it changes.

To me, this just seems like he's trying to paint himself as an oracle-like player who has uniquely beneficial insight into the game, which, I'm sorry, you don't (and neither do the rest of us).

I see no situation in which it would be more beneficial to claim to have a scumread and not elaborate than to elaborate on that or to just not post their claim of a scumread.

I'd also like to see some explanation behind his reads.

Green: post 153

Riddle is gut.

Null reads coming up in my next post.



It's easy for someone to just fake a read in the way that he did. It's still easy to fake an explanation as well, but it's still more difficult and gives us important insight in the event that he's town or information in which to strengthen a case against him should we further suspect him of being scum. SwaggerMaster, will you enlighten me on your thought process behind your reads? Don't explain your scumread if you still find it beneficial to leave it unspoken, while I think that's a bad idea, you might not, so I give you a pass on that one. Otherwise, I would like to understand your thoughts on your scumread and your decision not to reveal it.

[Whatisswag]

Bleh I forgot to underline

@fairies: Can you elaborate on how Riddle and swag's interaction seems scum-scum? Is it because they're town reading each other?

Sort of. I'm scum reading Riddle because I feel like he's either whiteknighting or protecting Swagerella, both of which, to me, are indicative of scum attempting to get towncred. I just feel like there have been more going on than just the situation with Swagimus but Riddle has only focused his thoughts and efforts in regards to the Swagina Situation. That's my justification for thinking Riddle is protecting Swaggerello an unnecessarily heavy amount.

I have seen people calling me newb town as town players themselves. To me this is null-town, as I have defended other towns as town too.

I said I'm less certain about Swagginy being scum because while Riddle's actions are scum, that does not necessarily reflect on Swaggles as he might just be ignoring Riddle's attempt to whiteknight him, which I understand, I've done the same in previous games, but at the same time, it's possible he is just trying to distance himself in case his case is doomed.

However, this:

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

Weakens his position in my mind. It's very possible that he's just looking for a specific reaction from a specific person before he calls out the person he is scum reading, but that doesn't seem likely to me.

Yes, if I point that person right out, that person might just change playstyle and it would be kind of harder to read if it changes.

To me, this just seems like he's trying to paint himself as an oracle-like player who has uniquely beneficial insight into the game, which, I'm sorry, you don't (and neither do the rest of us).

I see no situation in which it would be more beneficial to claim to have a scumread and not elaborate than to elaborate on that or to just not post their claim of a scumread.

I'd also like to see some explanation behind his reads.

Green: post 153

Riddle is gut.

Null reads coming up in my next post.

It's easy for someone to just fake a read in the way that he did. It's still easy to fake an explanation as well, but it's still more difficult and gives us important insight in the event that he's town or information in which to strengthen a case against him should we further suspect him of being scum. SwaggerMaster, will you enlighten me on your thought process behind your reads? Don't explain your scumread if you still find it beneficial to leave it unspoken, while I think that's a bad idea, you might not, so I give you a pass on that one. Otherwise, I would like to understand your thoughts on your scumread and your decision not to reveal it.

[Whatisswag]

Corpses is

a) town because of the high activity and scumhunting and the aggresiveness

b) scum because of only voting because of 1 reason (basically, I am robotic and elle's unvote is scummy)

Taking middle ground gives null

Grib is null as I cannot read him.

Elle is

a) town because she has both scum reads and town reads. it is kinda not easy to balance out scum read and town reads between people you know as town if you are scum.

b) scum because she does not scum hunt much and is more of a cautious person.

Taking middle ground gives null.

Fairy is

a) town because she has a few unique opinions (like the most recent post) that kind of stands out from the crowd.

b) scum because she does not really like to use her vote, which is what I find in a scum.

The rest I cannot remember and hence I put them as null.

Now is still not the time to reveal scum read.

[Armageddon]

Vote count
Day 1.2

Players alive: 13

Players needed to lynch: 7

awesomeusername

- 2 - elleheathen, Grib - (L-5)

elleheathen

- 2 - Riddleton, CorpsesInEthanol - (L-5)

Kaboose

- 2 - Kaboose, awesomeusername - (L-5)

Riddleton

- 3 - Green Crayons, NJAC, I Love Fairies - (L-4)

Whatisswag

- 1 - Hannibal6 - (L-6)

Players not voting: davesaz, RubikAshtray, Whatisswag

Mod notes

:
RubikAshtray has failed to pick up his role PM before the Saturday deadline and will be replaced.
Hannibal6 has been prodded

Deadline is in

(expired on 2015-01-14 20:45:00)

[Green Crayons]

@awesome:

why the Kaboose vote, based on a pretty flip justification ("You're welcome for the vote. Now talk to me.")?

Your Kaboose vote/justification is particularly incongruous with the remainder of your Post 155, in which you undertake a more thorough analysis of players.

[Green Crayons]

@elle:

What do you mean by "lynch-lining" in Post 162? I don't quite understand what insight Corpses' answer would have given.

[Kaboose]

1. Yeah except the moment you're proven to be a mason you pretty much die. To win with a mason team being all standing between this and mountainous, we need to keep the masons alive. It's like a delayed innocent child, if you will. Masons should be dropping tells that they're not masons (not enough to be scummy ofc).
Hypoclaim is rolefishing because the moment you claim recruited mason scum knows who did the recruiting.

2. Pretty much a useless point, you don't need to unvote to revote and I was lazy with the bbcode. Why, does this matter?

I realllllly hate how you tell the masons how to act. How can that benefit masons and the town at all? Seeing that if they take your suggestion it'll only narrow the players down for scum to find the masons. It's like a roundabout way to get them to role claim almost.
---

Btw here are the four games I played on MS from earliest to latest. As you can see, I dont have a fixed style of play as either faction (except the part about claiming scum). I would say meta on me is useless, but if people insist...
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=58838
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59515
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59745
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59949

And how the shit is Mathdino in this game?

I realllllly hate how people use past games to justify actions in this one, but it happens in like every game I play so this must just be how you play on this site. Still, someone trying to prove their innocence this game with games past will always look scummy to me no matter how much it's accepted as a strategy on this site. Prove to me you're town THIS game with your actions in THIS game, not with your actions in previous games.
---

@Riddleton: If you were a mason who would you recruit and why?

Is this a good thing to discuss or does it give too much information to scum?

I don't see why it would be a bad thing to discuss or how much info it might give to scum. Please enlighten me.

My first impression of this setup was that it would be important to keep the masons hidden, which means we shouldn't talk about them. I wasn't sure whether that was the strategy though (I'm still not), so I asked.

I was actually town reading swag by the end of page 2 for proactively coming up with suspicions and getting us out of RVS. Corpses has a good point with the "mechanical" scumhunting, I think, though. I'm gonna have to check to see whether he usually relies on tells like that or not. For now he's town, though.
@swag: How strong are your reads? In other words, how subject to change do you think they will be? Also, do you still think Rubik was scum trying to get more pre-game talk given that he still hasn't posted?

elle sorta pinged to me, too, around the time she was jumped on. Hearing her reasoning makes me feel better about her, though. I don't see the frustration swag pointed out in 89.

I was gonna say Kaboose was null because he probably didn't realize we were out of RVS yet, but he read the thread well enough to know nobody had voted him. :/

I thought fairies seemed a little overly defensive in her entrance, but I like 107. I like the fact that she read the links swag posted, and that she asks about terms she doesn't understand. Makes me feel like she's trying to figure things out.
@fairies: Can you elaborate on how Riddle and swag's interaction seems scum-scum? Is it because they're town reading each other?

I'm having trouble getting reads on Grib and GC because I keep getting them mixed up. The combined posts of mostly-black with green avatar seem pro-town to me, but I don't have much of a read on either yet. I disagree that corpses was shooting down swag's contributions more than providing contributions (119), but I like GC's thought processes and openness.
@GC: I don't understand what you're getting at with 117. What did Riddle's answer tell you?

@davesaz: I see a lot of questions from you but you're not really supplying any opinions yourself. What do you think of Grib, riddle, and swag?

My early town reads are swag, GC, corpses, and riddle.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kaboose
You're welcome for the vote. Now talk to me.

What do you want to talk about? Would you like to talk about your slip in this post on GC and how you wanted to toss his name in with town reads mere sentences after a no read?
---

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

UNVOTE:

I saw this in my read through again and didn't go back to look at who you were voting, but clearly whoever it was is not a scum read? Since you admit to having one and then unvote someone that I'm about to go find out who in a second. Could this be a case of you wanting to act like you have a scum read, and then realize, oh crap I have a vote out, to which I ask why you were voting that person to begin with? Unless it was a RVS vote or something, I don't know. This 160 & 161 just stick out.
---

Vote count
Day 1.2

Players alive: 13

Players needed to lynch: 7

awesomeusername

- 2 - elleheathen, Grib - (L-5)

elleheathen

- 2 - Riddleton, CorpsesInEthanol - (L-5)

Kaboose

- 2 - Kaboose, awesomeusername - (L-5)

Riddleton

- 3 - Green Crayons, NJAC, I Love Fairies - (L-4)

Whatisswag

- 1 - Hannibal6 - (L-6)

Players not voting: davesaz, RubikAshtray, Whatisswag

Mod notes

:
RubikAshtray has failed to pick up his role PM before the Saturday deadline and will be replaced.
Hannibal6 has been prodded

Deadline is in

(expired on 2015-01-14 20:45:00)

Unless I'm mistaken a lot of people I've read so far have called Riddleton town, but he's leading the way with votes? How come?
---

VOTE: CorpsesInEthanol because I like his role trap least of all in this thread so far.