Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Kaboose]

Do me a favor and respond to the relevant part of the quote, and not the whole thing. Use bolding if you don't want to trim the quote.

I'm always afraid to trim, because I don't want people thinking I'm hiding something. Is it okay to trim?

I think scum are just as capable of making a good point as anyone else. If someone has a townread and suddenly jumps on their wagon without any prior suspicions, I'm going to question it.

But if you had town read someone the whole game, and then someone points something out that you didn't notice, does that mean you'll let it slide because you haven't been looking that way? I don't understand why it was handled wrong, or why you think it was anyways. How do we play the game if we're only allowed to think someone is scum if we've thought they were scum before we thought they were scum?

[Grib]

I'm always afraid to trim, because I don't want people thinking I'm hiding something. Is it okay to trim?

Of course it's okay to trim. It makes it easier to see which of my sentences you're responding to.

But if you had town read someone the whole game, and then someone points something out that you didn't notice, does that mean you'll let it slide because you haven't been looking that way? I don't understand why it was handled wrong, or why you think it was anyways. How do we play the game if we're only allowed to think someone is scum if we've thought they were scum before we thought they were scum?

Short of a straight scumslip or a scumfirm from the mod, if you're just going to jump on someone's wagon because of a point raised by someone else (and not a very good one, sorry), it looks fishy and makes me wonder how strong/genuine the original townread was. It's not "letting it slide," so much as giving your townread the benefit of the doubt, because you think they are town. It's not the same thing as "this person is town now and forever no matter what."

And like I said, Riddleton gave no indication that he was suspicious of Corpses. Following someone's train of thought and seeing how their reads evolve is important, because scum have an act to keep up. Letting people vote whomever they want without saying why just makes it that much easier for town to lose.

[I Love Fairies]

Note: I italicized Swaggidon's reply to me as I was too lazy to pick apart the quotes and the underlines. My apologies.

"I have seen people calling me newb town as town players themselves. To me this is null-town, as I have defended other towns as town too."

My suspicion about his protection is not that he's defending you, it's in the manner that he is defending you.

"Yes, if I point that person right out, that person might just change playstyle and it would be kind of harder to read if it changes."

Personally, I would rather see how they change their playstyle and how they react to this exchange than to just continue to study their unfiltered actions. Scum often act differently under pressure and that's pouring pressure onto people is one of the most effective ways of finding scum.

Your reads don't actually provide much of an explanation as to why the defining characteristics of the player is scummy. Tell me why "a) town because she has a few unique opinions (like the most recent post) that kind of stands out from the crowd." is townish behavior. The only part where you explain the why well is point B under Elle.

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

This is bleeding town. This would be absurd for newbie scum to post.

Okay, why?

[Riddleton]

There wasn't anything to suggest you were even mildly suspicious of Corpses.

You're exactly right -- I wasn't suspicious of Corpses earlier. In fact I townread them. Kaboose and GC brought up some good points against Corpses in this thread that I was oblivious to earlier, and thus I'm blatantly sheeping them!

[Riddleton]

Okay, why?

Because most people tend to be very self-conscious of their scumgame when they start and want to look as normal as posible; that means no gambits, no secrets and nothing to draw attention to themselves.

[Kaboose]

@Grib

Okay, sorry to put you through all that, but it seemed weird. Makes a little more sense now. Not that you need my permission, continue on.

[Grib]

There wasn't anything to suggest you were even mildly suspicious of Corpses.

You're exactly right -- I wasn't suspicious of Corpses earlier. In fact I townread them. Kaboose and GC brought up some good points against Corpses in this thread that I was oblivious to earlier, and thus I'm blatantly sheeping them!

Kaboose's point sucks, and Green Crayons' is "I don't like their interactions with Whatisswag, and half of the hydra is present." Half of that isn't even really a reason.

What don't you like about the Corpses/Swag back-and-forth?

[Grib]

@Grib

Okay, sorry to put you through all that, but it seemed weird. Makes a little more sense now. Not that you need my permission, continue on.

Continue on with what?

[Kaboose]

@Grib

Okay, sorry to put you through all that, but it seemed weird. Makes a little more sense now. Not that you need my permission, continue on.

Continue on with what?

Questioning Riddleton's motives?

[Grib]

Oh.

I don't know why you felt the need to tell me to go on with what I was already doing, but okay.

What do you think of davesaz and Green Crayons?

[Cheetory6]

Do you not think people should come under pressure for bad play? How do you expect the game to ever advance? Even if it is just bad play, it was a play that could hurt our most powerful win condition.

The point isn't whether bad play should be questioned. The point is that bad play=/=scummy play. I don't see why Corpse would rolefish in such an obvious way if his intent was solely to get masonslips. If anything, I would think that if he is scum, that he was merely trying to seem like he was acting protown trying to pitch ideas on what to be doing right now. Either way, no matter what his alignment is I still think it was just bad play on his part.

I can follow the angle of trying to pressure Corpse into answering various questions on him, I can't follow the angle of lynching him solely on the merit of a sketchy accusation of him rolefishing that feels like a stretch.

My single question to him wasn't sustaining anything, as it was a bad question and I wasn't expecting anything from it.

Why not vote someone who you said was pinging you as slightly scummy?

I don't know if Corpses's mason talk is "clearly" scum motivated, but I think it's more likely to come from scum trying to get townie points when discussing game setup.

Makes more sense to me now that I've more fully absorbed your train of thought in #189. Though, why were you okay with sheeping Kaboose's reasoning before though if you later disagreed with it?

Remind me what those points are?

I kind of got a little bit jumbled with the timeline of what was going on because I got a little too focused on Swag during my readthrough, so I guess a better question is why did you comment on elle/Kaboose and not on Riddleton who had three votes at the time in the quote I posted before?

[Grib]

I kind of got a little bit jumbled with the timeline of what was going on because I got a little too focused on Swag during my readthrough, so I guess a better question is why did you comment on elle/Kaboose and not on Riddleton who had three votes at the time in the quote I posted before?

Because I had a townread on him, and no reads on the other two.

[Riddleton]

This is what I don't like about the Math/Swag interactions:
a) It feels like Math is trying to gain towncred for theory and look active and helpful.
b) The interactions with swag about "this is what the correct play is with regards to masons!" feels forced and unnatural.
c) There's a certain defensiveness in his posts from talking to swag and a "I'm right" kind of tone that looks like a scum vs town interaction. Need I remind you how absolutely 100% town swag is?

[Cheetory6]

@Grib

, when did you have a townread on Riddle and why?

Because I forgot I caught Corpse's failure to address Hannibal when I made my vote post.

Where does this reasoning rank in comparison to the rest of your reasons for voting for Corpse?

[Riddleton]

Everytime someone suspects Swag or thinks he's a little suspicious, Thor coughs blood. You don't want Thor to

die

do you?

[Cheetory6]

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

Don't you ignore me you jerk.

[Riddleton]

Sorry I missed that! I'll check out what you mean shortly

[I Love Fairies]

Okay, why?

Because most people tend to be very self-conscious of their scumgame when they start and want to look as normal as posible; that means no gambits, no secrets and nothing to draw attention to themselves.

Yeah, most people, and then you get people like me who draw as much attention to themselves as possible (which I think would've paid off if I didn't have to replace out for unrelated issues). My point is, your argument that Swaghilda is town is based upon your assumption that he is not a good player, which is a horrible assumption to make because now you're going to discredit everything he says and ignore anything that could be scum related with him.

[Riddleton]

I didn't say he was a bad player, just inexperienced to this site. There's a distinctive difference!

[elleheathen]

@elle:

Also, congrats, you managed to find one of the few instances in which a random wagon actually gets scum. Now there are no associatives to be made D2, no analysis to pull on D1, you're basically at square 1.

@ILF: Hannibal's avatar is from Civilization IV, amazing game. I like your last post, seems townish, stuff before that, very light scumread, so nullread for now.

I think awesomeusername is town. elle's vote is weird if Whatisswag is town.

Why would that make it weird?

This question was responded to in Post 55.

You had no follow up. What was the purpose of your question in Post 52?

#55 is just calling my vote in #35 'opportunistic for townpoints', not answering why my vote is 'weird if whatisswag is town'.

It struck me as lynch-lining - was hoping for a better read on corpses with the answer.

@elle:

What do you mean by "lynch-lining" in Post 162? I don't quite understand what insight Corpses' answer would have given.

Lynch-lining. Lining up his lynches.
I didn't want to just assume - that's why I asked what he meant by my vote being 'weird if whatisswag is town'.
What makes it weird - and why is it only weird if whatisswag is town?
What does 'weird' mean? Weird scum? Weird opportunistic? Etc.

I wanted corpses response, as I said in #162 (quoted above), for a better read on them.

Since you voted corpses immediately following this post to me, why the concern over my line of questioning towards them?

[Whatisswag]

Sup. I am here to dramatically flop around as a replacement.

Taking middle ground gives null.

The way I scum hunt is relating the person I see to myself (another way of saying: I dont scum hunt by logic, I scum hunt by gut).

Something about the way that you're adding together what you see as scumtells and towntells to get nullreads while also saying that you scumhunt using gut feels off. I think it's that using generic towntells/scumtells and adding them together feels anything but gutbased. I might be getting caught up in semantics, so please try to elaborate on this so I can avoid being an idiot and getting caught up in a dumb argument about nothing here.

I try to consider both from that person's scum and town perspective and I link it to how I play scum and town and I try to spot the similarity/differences

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

My last scum game was a greatest idea and my last town game was a normal.

I don't want to vote for any of them. The points raised against elle and Kaboose are meh.

What do you think of the points on whatisswag? I feel like you've danced around talking about him assuming I didn't just miss something in my readback.

@Green

, earlier on why were you voting Riddle over Grib, Corpses or elle? What were you hoping to get out of that single line of questioning that made him worth voting for? Also, what do you make of awesome's simultaneous townread/inability to read you and the players that are ramping up pressure on him for it?

So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Not really seeing why this is clearly scum-motivated and not just a bad play on Corpse's part.

[Whatisswag]

Also, this is my first game in which there are masons, so I ask.

[Cheetory6]

Why are you answering for Riddle q.q
I was half asking because I'm trying to read him too. q.q

[Whatisswag]

Everytime I see your posts, I look for my name first.

Note: I italicized Swaggidon's reply to me as I was too lazy to pick apart the quotes and the underlines. My apologies.

"I have seen people calling me newb town as town players themselves. To me this is null-town, as I have defended other towns as town too."

My suspicion about his protection is not that he's defending you, it's in the manner that he is defending you.

Like hard defending?

"Yes, if I point that person right out, that person might just change playstyle and it would be kind of harder to read if it changes."

Personally, I would rather see how they change their playstyle and how they react to this exchange than to just continue to study their unfiltered actions. Scum often act differently under pressure and that's pouring pressure onto people is one of the most effective ways of finding scum.

Your reads don't actually provide much of an explanation as to why the defining characteristics of the player is scummy. Tell me why "a) town because she has a few unique opinions (like the most recent post) that kind of stands out from the crowd." is townish behavior. The only part where you explain the why well is point B under Elle.

It was a brief overview. Also, the specific response to the above is that scum likes to hide within the crowd to prevent scum slips. by having a different opinions, it is like telling others that she is different.

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

This is bleeding town. This would be absurd for newbie scum to post.

Okay, why?

[Whatisswag]

Why are you answering for Riddle q.q
I was half asking because I'm trying to read him too. q.q

Ok oops