Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[davesaz]

The underlining thing isn't working for me. Could you quote, edit the quote down to the part you're responding to, and then put your response outside the quote? It's not that hard to get it right and you can always hit preview to clean up any tag mistakes.

[Whatisswag]

Ok my scum read was (and still is) davesaz.

I see we're beyond RVS already, which is fine I guess. We have a Christmas dinner for 18 going tomorrow afternoon, so it may be 24 hours before I can really get going on this game. If I get enough time between gifts and the beginning of dinner prep I'll try to get on, but no promises.

Hannibal, did/do you play mafia on CFC?

Useless

VOTE: unvote

Wasn't fond of the 'Here, let me link other people's theories on something that's being asked of

me

...'
But liked that you could follow it up with knowing the first-to-confirms given one of those linked explanations on why you'd think that. Was looking at the same pregame.

Unvotes just after RVS are scummy. It's an unnecessary defensive move that looks like "Hey, I'm doing something" when there's no need to.

VOTE: elle

You've been busted, my friend. Life is tough sometimes. I imagine your parents must be very dissapointed in you. Who are your partners?

Did you get what you wanted from this vote?

Useless

I like for my first vote to be on someone I've played with before.

And why is that not me? I feel so sad.

Well, I can only vote for one person at a time.

Why are you worrying about the Masons and tossing around self-meta? It's more distracting than anything else.

Was there a satisfying answer to this question?

Useless

There is a masons team, composed by two masons. They will recruit another member at any time in the game. Read the setup and Sample Role PMs.

Any thoughts beyond the setup speculation yet?

Useless

Hm.

VOTE: davesaz

Ask less pointless questions.

Patience, grasshopper. The point will be clearer in time.

Useless

If by "point" you mean "the rest of my teammates," then I'm all for patience.

This strikes me as something scum would say, trying to be clever.

Do you really think that?

Do you always jump to conclusions about whether there is a point to a question or not, or only when you're scum?

Useless

@Riddleton:

VOTE: unvote

Wasn't fond of the 'Here, let me link other people's theories on something that's being asked of

me

...'
But liked that you could follow it up with knowing the first-to-confirms given one of those linked explanations on why you'd think that. Was looking at the same pregame.

Unvotes just after RVS are scummy. It's an unnecessary defensive move that looks like "Hey, I'm doing something" when there's no need to.

VOTE: elle

You've been busted, my friend. Life is tough sometimes. I imagine your parents must be very dissapointed in you. Who are your partners?

Did you get what you wanted from this vote?

You voted for elle. Did this post and vote have a purpose, and if there was one did you get anything from it?

Useless

As we can currently see, davesaz is doing nothing other than asking question.
1) These questions served little to zero purpose.
2) These questions are the way to look like he is scum hunting.
3) He did not scum hunt.
4) I did a search of his posts. in his previous same game (as town) of "Making Friends and Enemies", he was much more willing to speak out loud.
5) What is up with the conservative vote? The prev game, he was much more willing to vote than this game.

@davesaz: I see a lot of questions from you but you're not really supplying any opinions yourself. What do you think of Grib, riddle, and swag?

I hadn't had enough minutes at the same time to really do anything, at the time I posted those questions, so I didn't have an opinion on anyone.

The way Grib responded to my questions seemed like scum opportunism, since there is nothing alignment indicative in starting with simple questions. But it's only a null-scum at most, town could do that to see if the target feels pressured by the vote. Riddle either missed my question or decided not to answer. (Pedit: Ok, there's an answer now but I haven't had a chance to see how that answer meshes with his later activity)

Still haven't had enough time to really read anyone, other than scan for my name and see if my questions got replies.

This is another thing. Checking his name... He does not really care about other players than himself.

I did catch two themes that I can respond to in a general way.

Don't remember whose topic the "people who haven't confirmed are making scum plans" thing was. It's a decent conversation starter but should not be used as any kind of real logic, especially at holiday time. There's a pretty good chance that the late confirmers were just traveling or otherwise prevented from being on internet at all. You can't read anything directly into the timing, and even reaction testing off it is chancy given the likelihood that people may be annoyed you're not making allowances for the season.

The setup speculation happens all the time, especially when players haven't experienced this particular setup but also as a form of role fishing in hopes that newbs might not know they can reveal their role inadvertently. It isn't strongly indicative of alignment, but the people who focus on it the most get put in my "watch closely" pile, as do the ones who are present but don't comment on it at all.

Analysis to follow, as I get more time to actually do the research and not just skim.

dave is focusing on Grib and almost no one else. If he was town, I expect him to have a wider outlook.

dave does not have a strong opinion on someone, as he is scared of being refuted.

dave is only commenting on the most general two things that are happening, he just ignore player interactions

dave is scum.

VOTE: davesaz

[Whatisswag]

If only I had half of the votes, I would just end the day with lynching davesaz.

[Whatisswag]

And why Grib? that is a thing I want to know.

[Whatisswag]

I would say that Grib is town if dave is scum. And by the logic that scum likes to ignore their scum partners (which happens very oftenly), Green and NJAC are both not scum. I would think that one of {Corpses, elle, ILF} is his partner.

[Green Crayons]

@Grib:

Telling masons to be "dropping tells that they're not masons (not enough to be scummy ofc)" has no actual value because that is the obvious, logical play of being a mason. However, it's an action that looks like it has value because Corpses is supporting a play that benefits masons staying alive. So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Okay, so you think it doesn't have any value. That's fair. But if you actually go back and look at the interaction as it occurred, Corpses' post was in response to what he perceived as Masonfishing on Whatisswag's part. It wasn't an unprompted "hey guys Masons should totally

not

act like Masons duh" post.

Yes, I know. I think the context in which this particular action of Corpses's arose is also suspicious. I don't like Corpses's interaction with swag, remember? His fight with swag over the hypoclaim is part of why I'm voting him.

[Green Crayons]

@Fairies:

My suspicion about his protection is not that he's defending you, it's in the manner that he is defending you.

I reviewed your Post 111 and Post 167, and neither appeared to get to the point you're saying here - that it's about

how

Riddle is defending swag, not that Riddle is defending swag.

Can you please elaborate about the manner of Riddle's actions that is the basis for your suspicions?

[Green Crayons]

@Riddle:

I know you've seen Fairies' suspicions of you, as you have responded to her about other things. Why shouldn't I understand your avoidance of her suspicions as a scum tactic?

[Green Crayons]

@Cheetory:

My single question to him wasn't sustaining anything, as it was a bad question and I wasn't expecting anything from it.

Why not vote someone who you said was pinging you as slightly scummy?

I don't know to who you are referring that was pinging me as slightly scummy?

I don't know if Corpses's mason talk is "clearly" scum motivated, but I think it's more likely to come from scum trying to get townie points when discussing game setup.

Makes more sense to me now that I've more fully absorbed your train of thought in #189. Though, why were you okay with sheeping Kaboose's reasoning before though if you later disagreed with it?

Kaboose's post prompted me to review Corpses's ISO, and the review of Corpses's ISO is what prompted me to vote him. I connected Kaboose to my vote based on that linear sequence of events. But upon further scrutinizing Kaboose's post after being prompted by Grib, I saw that there was perhaps some difference between what made Corpses suspicious to Kaboose and me.

[Green Crayons]

@Cheetory x2:

Because I forgot I caught Corpse's failure to address Hannibal when I made my vote post.

Where does this reasoning rank in comparison to the rest of your reasons for voting for Corpse?

I'm waiting on seeing Corpses' response before I judge this particular piece of evidence.

[Green Crayons]

@elle:

@elle:

What do you mean by "lynch-lining" in Post 162? I don't quite understand what insight Corpses' answer would have given.

Lynch-lining. Lining up his lynches.
I didn't want to just assume - that's why I asked what he meant by my vote being 'weird if whatisswag is town'.
What makes it weird - and why is it only weird if whatisswag is town?
What does 'weird' mean? Weird scum? Weird opportunistic? Etc.

I wanted corpses response, as I said in #162 (quoted above), for a better read on them.

I guessed that you meant lining up his lynches, but I guess what I'm getting at is I don't see how his response to explaining your "weird" play relates to whether Corpses was actually lining up his lynches. What was it about his "weird" accusation that made you felt like you were being lined up in a series of lynches?

Since you voted corpses immediately following this post to me, why the concern over my line of questioning towards them?

1. I don't have strong scum feelings about anyone, so the fact that I'm voting one player doesn't affect my questions to other players to suss out their alignment.

2. Perhaps more to the point: I was simply following up my original line of questioning.

That original line of questioning was prompted because I thought your question to Corpses looked defensive. However, the fact that Corpses didn't actually respond to your questions (I agree with you there, and I originally failed to see the disconnect between your Post 52 and Corpses's Post 55), and that you then let the issue simply die, looks less like scum defensiveness and more like early town probing. So that winnowed down my interest in pursing this issue to what I asked.

[elleheathen]

@elle:

@elle:

What do you mean by "lynch-lining" in Post 162? I don't quite understand what insight Corpses' answer would have given.

Lynch-lining. Lining up his lynches.
I didn't want to just assume - that's why I asked what he meant by my vote being 'weird if whatisswag is town'.
What makes it weird - and why is it only weird if whatisswag is town?
What does 'weird' mean? Weird scum? Weird opportunistic? Etc.

I wanted corpses response, as I said in #162 (quoted above), for a better read on them.

I guessed that you meant lining up his lynches, but I guess what I'm getting at is I don't see how his response to explaining your "weird" play relates to whether Corpses was actually lining up his lynches. What was it about his "weird" accusation that made you felt like you were being lined up in a series of lynches?

At the time, it looked like corpses was scum reading swag - so to say 'elle's vote is weird if my

scumread

is town' seems off - like 'lets lynch my scumread but if he flips town, let's lynch elle because this is weird? I didn't really have any expectation for how I thought scum or town would reply - but hoped whatever he did reply with would maybe make more sense of it for me. the lack of reply gives me mixed feels.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Whatisswag

fuck
off
asshole

[elleheathen]

@whatisswag (in reference to 226-229)

Interesting.
That's a lot of lead-up for a sadly underwhelming post

So davesaz is scum because of useless posting - despite that he explains previous to any of this that his lack of posting is due to the holidays and not having time? Which would essentially negate all five of those first points you have there.

The part on him only interacting 'with Grib and almost no one else' is ridic misleading. It's not hard to ISO him to see who he's directing his 9 posts to:

1) Hannibal
2) Riddleton
3) Grib
4) NJAC
5) Grib
6) Grib
7) Riddleton
8) awesomeusername
9) whatisswag

Grib has the majority due to a response but it's hardly 'almost no one else'.

What do you think of his thoughts that the confirmation order is largely irrelevant in this game due to the holidays - a theory that actually coincides with his reasoning for being more inactive than usual?

Do you think it's likely to be coming from scum when it's actually negating one of the reasons he may be seen as town - due to being one of the first four to confirm?

Did something significant happen in the day you waited to reveal your scumread that proved he was scum for you?

[elleheathen]

VOTE: Whatisswag

fuck
off
asshole

This is interesting, too. Lol

Do you not like him voting for you?

[davesaz]

There is nothing "useless" about the way I'm playing. I get upset when people dismiss my style, and even more so when they accuse me of lying when I'm not. Calling it useless again after I've said it had a purpose is doing exactly that...

[davesaz]

I would say that Grib is town if dave is scum. And by the logic that scum likes to ignore their scum partners (which happens very oftenly), Green and NJAC are both not scum. I would think that one of {Corpses, elle, ILF} is his partner.

It is far too early to be doing this kind of association as town, but I have seen scum go this route many times to give themselves early justification for later mislynches. Scum also like to bring up negative association logic early to show town they're not connected to their partners.

[davesaz]

Yes, the vote had a purpose. As I said in the post you quoted, "Unvotes just after RVS are scummy. It's an unnecessary defensive move that looks like "Hey, I'm doing something" when there's no need to.". It's a serious vote.

What's your read one Elle now? I found it weird that you voted her for something that you say is scummy, did nothing afterwards with regard to her, and sheeped a wagon. But when asked whether the vote had a purpose and if you were satisfied with the result, you said the vote was serious.

[elleheathen]

There is nothing "useless" about the way I'm playing. I get upset when people dismiss my style, and even more so when they accuse me of lying when I'm not. Calling it useless again after I've said it had a purpose is doing exactly that...

Not trying to piss ya off more - just saying...

It would probably be more productive to just say the above then. Scum is going to do stuff like this to purposefully misrepresent you and town is going to do it because they misunderstand you or because they attribute it to scum.

You're going to get it a lot... And most of the time it won't be anything personal.

[davesaz]

Makes sense.

Right now, I'm actually leaning towards a Riddle lynch. With the way they've interacted, I would not be surprised if both were in cohorts. They don't seem town enough to me to be a Mason team so that leaves a scum team. How I see it, Swagilicious is trying to distance himself from Riddle and Riddle is trying to protect McPimpSwag. However, I'm not so positive on Swaggy distancing himself from Riddle, it's possible SwaggersMcGee just doesn't have much of an opinion on Riddle, which I suppose is understandable because I don't have a strong opinion on EVERYONE yet.

What do you think of Swag's associations post 229?

[davesaz]

@Cheetory6: Have you caught up to the whole game? How did you choose the (roughly 6) people you've interacted with or focused on so far?

[Cheetory6]

I don't know to who you are referring that was pinging me as slightly scummy?

Poorly phrased on my part. Why did you keep your vote on Riddle while saying you were slightly scumreading other people? Too lazy to pull up quotes right now but I know you said other scumreads in between your votechange.

even more so when they accuse me of lying when I'm not

I mean, you know the game you're playing right? Occasionally people are going to accuse you of lying because, dare I say, you may in fact be lying if you're mafia.
Also, try to keep things civil please. Not going to townread anger because I've seen plenty of people abuse that towntell as scum [myself included].

Scum also like to bring up negative association logic early to show town they're not connected to their partners.

Who do you think Swag would be trying to distance himself from in this case?

Have you caught up to the whole game? How did you choose the (roughly 6) people you've interacted with or focused on so far?

I kind of want to reread again because my brain went kind of numb trying to read a lot of the poem interactions around page 4-5 or something, but I otherwise feel relatively comfortable saying I'm caught up. I chose recent interactions because I felt those people would be most likely to be here and I wanted direct interactions to try and sort people and I chose things that stood out to me as weird.

@Swag

, what separates SJAC and davesaz in terms of content posted thus far? Also, what're your thoughts on elle?

VOTE: elle
Her vote in #163 feels reactionary and the followup ten minutes later strikes me as trying to throw additional reasoning to seem proactive. Also feel like she's saying a decent amount without leaving much of an impression. Stances seem pretty safe overall. Have some other weak reasons for suspecting her, but don't really know if they make sense and want to mull them over atm.

[CorpsesInEthanol]

I have unusual priorities during Christmas season
Taking care of multiple games isn't exactly breezin'
I'll get back to this shortly, promise, you all have my word
I must assure you that I will remain undeterred.

[Whatisswag]

@Riddleton: If you were a mason who would you recruit and why?

This question, unlike most of dave's question, is a question that actually sparks more discussion.

@Riddleton: If you were a mason who would you recruit and why?

Is this a good thing to discuss or does it give too much information to scum?

I don't see why it would be a bad thing to discuss or how much info it might give to scum. Please enlighten me.

He takes a firm position here.

[Kaboose]

VOTE: Whatisswag

fuck
off
asshole

So you're just voting because you don't like his opinion of your play style?

There is nothing "useless" about the way I'm playing. I get upset when people dismiss my style, and even more so when they accuse me of lying when I'm not. Calling it useless again after I've said it had a purpose is doing exactly that...