Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Whatisswag]

Hello, I said the argument is both of the same alignment already. That has nothing to do with my reads. Even if elle is confirmed town to me and ranger is confirmed scum to me, I will still say it.

[Whatisswag]

I disagree your disagree. I would absolutely love to do this as town except that I have to care about everyone too.

The reason why I dont do this is because by doing this I overlook others, which happened exactly in this game, in which Grib happened to be scum: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59515

[Whatisswag]

Sigh, I would actually prefer to lynch lurkers but no one does that in any game, which makes me feel so sad.

[Lone Ranger]

UNVOTE:

I want to think about things a bit more before deciding where to cast my vote. I have thoughts about Kaboose's wall but they'll have to wait until I have enough time to think them through. I want to NJAC and others posting more before I post my thoughts.

[Lone Ranger]

Kaboose, give me a list of your reads from towniest to scummiest.

[Grib]

@Kaboose

No, I have nothing to point out. I just wanted your thoughts on him.

Sorry, I must have missed your case on elle. Could you link me to the post?

[Grib]

I like Grib, and Lone Ranger for townfolk. They've been applying the most pressure to people, and posting with the most reckless abandon. I really don't read their posts and think they've thought about each sentence as much as typing from their heart. Gosh that sounds sappy.

What? You don't read our posts?

I guess since I'm town reading Grib, I'll fall off of Corpses(I will tell you "I told you so" if the chance arrives later) I still have a gut feeling, but I'm okay falling off because I'm having issues with WhatIsSwag now. Dave and Elle are still on my scum list.

It's your own fault if your reasoning isn't convincing enough.

[Whatisswag]

Hmm, a total of 6 people have voted elle. elle has voted a total of 2 players. If no bussing has occured, then elle is likely town. But what is there was bussing... Do any of you think elle might be town because of the wagon?

[Grib]

Hmm, a total of 6 people have voted elle. elle has voted a total of 2 players. If no bussing has occured, then elle is likely town. But what is there was bussing... Do any of you think elle might be town because of the wagon?

She's voted three players: you, awesomeusername, and Lone Ranger.

What does bussing look like, in your experience?

[Lone Ranger]

If Elle is scum, Kaboose and Swag are who I suspect most.

[Whatisswag]

Hmm, a total of 6 people have voted elle. elle has voted a total of 2 players. If no bussing has occured, then elle is likely town. But what is there was bussing... Do any of you think elle might be town because of the wagon?

She's voted three players: you, awesomeusername, and Lone Ranger.

What does bussing look like, in your experience?

I have never seen bussing before. Both games I played as town, one has independent mafias, one has almost a perfect win, leaving me no time to look at bussing.

[Lone Ranger]

Have you also never seen scum push back against town?

[Whatisswag]

By my so-called "scum team analysis", I think awesomeusername is scum. And obviously since there are masons I would not say out who are the others.

VOTE: awesomeusername

There my vote stays for the rest of the day.

@lone ranger, that I will need to check.

[Lone Ranger]

So you don't even remember whether scum push back against townies, yet you are so adamant that me and Elle pushing back against each other cannot be scumVtown. Why?

[Whatisswag]

Ok my check shows that out of the total 8 scum I have played with, only one pushes back on town.

[Whatisswag]

So you don't even remember whether scum push back against townies, yet you are so adamant that me and Elle pushing back against each other cannot be scumVtown. Why?

Because I dont have a strong feel to the existence of scum pushing town, so I dont remember.

[Cheetory6]

This seemed less like trying to help, and more like you just wanted to stir up a storm again as it seemed Elle and LR were closing their exchange. You really seemed to ask a couple questions here that

you could have answered yourself by reading in my opinion

.

I mean, I think my line of questioning was at least calmer and wasn't going to explode into a wallwar. How was I stirring up a storm there? I feel like you're inserting emotion here where there is none. >.>
I'm halfway to pffting at you for the bolded. Don't make me full pfft you.

The way you attacked Elle would make me think you'd see her lynch out and then go after Awesome. Something about this doesn't add up to me.

Why are you posturing like this here and then saying that LR is one of your strongest townreads in the same post?

Hello, I said the argument is both of the same alignment already. That has nothing to do with my reads. Even if elle is confirmed town to me and ranger is confirmed scum to me, I will still say it.

I don't want to even pretend that I understand this.
Why does this make me think that you're town? Like, I just can't imagine scum faking this kind of train of thought. >.>

[Lone Ranger]

Why are you posturing like this here and then saying that LR is one of your strongest townreads in the same post?

This is what had bugged me about Kaboose. Every case against Elle, every bad thing said about Elle, Kaboose endorses enthusiastically. He calls me town for going after Elle. The one single criticism he has of me is when I consider moving off of Elle. The criticisms he has of you are when you poke holes in my Elle case.

[elleheathen]

elle, are you scumreading people who are scumreading you?

I'm not scumreading you, am I?

I still don't like your implication that you know davesaz is town.

And I still don't like your implication that that's what I'm implying - so I guess we're even.

[elleheathen]

UNVOTE:

Hmm...

[Lone Ranger]

UNVOTE:

Hmm...

What is your opinion on Kaboose's wall?

[Grib]

I'm not scumreading you, am I?

I imagine it's difficult to find a reason to scumread someone who is "obvious town."

And I still don't like your implication that that's what I'm implying - so I guess we're even.

It's not an implication, it's a statement. Your post reads to me like you know davesaz is town. You buddied him, defended him, and now you're mad he isn't townreading you like he rightfully should be.

At least, that's how it comes across.

[Lone Ranger]

A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle. His mentions of Elle before his recent wall are minimal and could easily be faked by scum.

If not, I'd like you to at least look over Elle and tell me what you think of her play thus far.

219 and 236 look reasonable, but there isn't really enough said to get a full read.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

@Elle, I had a line of questioning for you, but I feel like the response wouldn't be informative.
Basically, it seemed to me like:

What changed between then and now?

My read, obviously.

Was implying that you were scumreading him rather than trying to sort him, but the followup in response to me seemed more geared towards you saying that you were trying to sort him again. Realized on reflection that asking you about it wouldn't really yield anything productive because "oh I was just saying that I wasn't townreading him and am now nullreading him" was likely to be your response regardless of what your alignment is.

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

Oh good someone brings it up for me!

What did you think of the post of hers I quoted? I don't know what to make of it but it seemed weird.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

I see the scum-motivation in trying to prod people for their reads on you so you can adjust your play accordingly, however, I've seen some townplayers do stuff like this in the last few games I've been in, so I'm more inclined to nullread this particular post.

I think I'm more troubled by how safe her play up until her push on Swag has felt, but I admit this is more of a tone argument on my part and I won't be surprised if nobody will listen to me on this point alone.

I guess it would be too obvious for a scum member to be like "If I said this, or since I said that, do you find it scummy or townie" but I just don't see why a town person who is scum hunting would make this a worry. Like do I worry that someone may read me as scum based on me trying to help solve the game? Sure, but I'm not going to be worried enough to stop what I'm doing to ask for confirmation before I proceed. Could you imagine if that's how we played?

Am I alone in my thought that scum are more likely to care about what they look like than a town person? Especially since there aren't any cops or doctors who need to alter their play a bit to make it to day 2.

I'm scum reading Dave, Elle, and still Corpses.

I will say though, maybe it's just me, but this game still seems to be suffering from a bit of holiday hangover. We need some more interactions in here to get people talking and slipping.

Grib! I'm starting at the top of the VC. Do you still find awesomeusername scummy and deserving of your vote? I'll research the answer myself, but if you get a chance let's talk about him. We have a bit of a connection, you're voting awesome, awesome is voting me. I think you also told me I was stupid once or twice in this game. I don't like you for that. Oh and I haven't forgot, I'm going to get to your Green Crayons inquiry as well.

There are three major mentions of Elle before his recent wall. The first is him calling Elle scummy for something that is completely null. The second is Kaboose excitedly asking Cheetory about his Elle suspicion eager to show that he had Elle as a scumread. The third is an elaboration of his scumread which is okay and fairly null.

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum. He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads. He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle? Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

Cheetory misunderstood my initial arguments even though I explained them to him several times. I cannot believe that Kaboose so miraculously understood all of them and see them as persuasive. My case against Elle is one that is unlikely to appeal to the masses. Cheetory's reactions and calling it nitpicking confirms my thoughts there. I think it would be moderately difficult for an objective outsider to break down what I found scummy about Elle. Kaboose's understanding here is alarming.

As for who to lynch, I feel Kaboose is on balance scummier than Elle. I will switch back if Elle is the lynch that is viable but I want everyone in this game to read Kaboose's wall. And anyone that is reading Kaboose as town should explain why. He is very clearly scum.

VOTE: Kaboose

[Lone Ranger]

Kaboose - Leaning Town - I was up in the air on him until 339 - he gives a good view on why he's thinking the way he is and I especially like his appeal to Grib in it. I feel like him keeping his vote on Corpses despite Corpses being VLA is coming from town - because he has both me and davesaz as scumreads for reasons he's explained but that if he were scum, he'd have cared less who of the three he had his vote on.

This is also rather weak. He is town because he left his vote on someone that was on V/LA?

[elleheathen]

What is your opinion on Kaboose's wall?

I scanned it. Some good points, some misquided points, some paranoid as hell points - he's still town.