Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[elleheathen]

429 - With so much time on the deadline, are you giving up as a defense to hope we read this as a town post? I really don't like it because there's like 12 days or something until deadline and you're already assuming you're the lynch? It's like a reverse psychology thing here.

I'm not giving up - just preparing for the worst. I like to have my reads and thoughts out

before

it gets to a lynch, so that when my flip does come, town knows what to look back at.

[I Love Fairies]

I'm so sorry that I haven't been able to respond recently. I don't really have a good excuse. I didn't know I would be gone as long as I was and should have called VLA. Next time I will do so.

Anyways, Elle's posts seem a lot more genuine than most of the other players in the game. I think she is one of the LAST people we want to lynch because I'm fairly positive she is town given her actions and she is vocal and actiony (idk what word to replace this with) than other people.

I'm still under the impression that SwaggerMayerWeiner is scum, regardless of the defenses he's put up and the defenses that his teammates put up. Part of me doesn't want to lynch him because I'm having fun coming up with names for him, but I'm not about to let my fun risk this game. Sorry, SinSwagilyYours.

VOTE: Swagilicious

Also, Riddleton's defense to his lack of defense to me pretty much instantly made me think him to be town. I think I may have just been overly paranoid with his interaction with Marty McSwag.

Also also, I will be gone tomorrow. Expect my return on Sunday.

[Whatisswag]

Lol, I am probably not getting lynched today, neither is awesomeusername probably. Unless, there are people who actually listen to us...

[Whatisswag]

I'm so sorry that I haven't been able to respond recently. I don't really have a good excuse. I didn't know I would be gone as long as I was and should have called VLA. Next time I will do so.

Anyways, Elle's posts seem a lot more genuine than most of the other players in the game. I think she is one of the LAST people we want to lynch because I'm fairly positive she is town given her actions and she is vocal and actiony (idk what word to replace this with) than other people.

I'm still under the impression that SwaggerMayerWeiner is scum, regardless of the defenses he's put up and the defenses that his teammates put up. Part of me doesn't want to lynch him because I'm having fun coming up with names for him, but I'm not about to let my fun risk this game. Sorry, SinSwagilyYours.

VOTE: Swagilicious

Also, Riddleton's defense to his lack of defense to me pretty much instantly made me think him to be town. I think I may have just been overly paranoid with his interaction with Marty McSwag.

Also also, I will be gone tomorrow. Expect my return on Sunday.

I agree with you we probably dont want to lynch elle, but I think it is because of the wagon on her.

[Grib]

Hey, NJAC, are you scum?

[Whatisswag]

Hey, NJAC, are you scum?

I dont really understand the point of this question.

[Whatisswag]

A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle. His mentions of Elle before his recent wall are minimal and could easily be faked by scum.

If not, I'd like you to at least look over Elle and tell me what you think of her play thus far.

219 and 236 look reasonable, but there isn't really enough said to get a full read.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

@Elle, I had a line of questioning for you, but I feel like the response wouldn't be informative.
Basically, it seemed to me like:

What changed between then and now?

My read, obviously.

Was implying that you were scumreading him rather than trying to sort him, but the followup in response to me seemed more geared towards you saying that you were trying to sort him again. Realized on reflection that asking you about it wouldn't really yield anything productive because "oh I was just saying that I wasn't townreading him and am now nullreading him" was likely to be your response regardless of what your alignment is.

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

Oh good someone brings it up for me!

What did you think of the post of hers I quoted? I don't know what to make of it but it seemed weird.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

I see the scum-motivation in trying to prod people for their reads on you so you can adjust your play accordingly, however, I've seen some townplayers do stuff like this in the last few games I've been in, so I'm more inclined to nullread this particular post.

I think I'm more troubled by how safe her play up until her push on Swag has felt, but I admit this is more of a tone argument on my part and I won't be surprised if nobody will listen to me on this point alone.

I guess it would be too obvious for a scum member to be like "If I said this, or since I said that, do you find it scummy or townie" but I just don't see why a town person who is scum hunting would make this a worry. Like do I worry that someone may read me as scum based on me trying to help solve the game? Sure, but I'm not going to be worried enough to stop what I'm doing to ask for confirmation before I proceed. Could you imagine if that's how we played?

Am I alone in my thought that scum are more likely to care about what they look like than a town person? Especially since there aren't any cops or doctors who need to alter their play a bit to make it to day 2.

I'm scum reading Dave, Elle, and still Corpses.

I will say though, maybe it's just me, but this game still seems to be suffering from a bit of holiday hangover. We need some more interactions in here to get people talking and slipping.

Grib! I'm starting at the top of the VC. Do you still find awesomeusername scummy and deserving of your vote? I'll research the answer myself, but if you get a chance let's talk about him. We have a bit of a connection, you're voting awesome, awesome is voting me. I think you also told me I was stupid once or twice in this game. I don't like you for that. Oh and I haven't forgot, I'm going to get to your Green Crayons inquiry as well.

There are three major mentions of Elle before his recent wall. The first is him calling Elle scummy for something that is completely null. The second is Kaboose excitedly asking Cheetory about his Elle suspicion eager to show that he had Elle as a scumread. The third is an elaboration of his scumread which is okay and fairly null.

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum. He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads. He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle? Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

Cheetory misunderstood my initial arguments even though I explained them to him several times. I cannot believe that Kaboose so miraculously understood all of them and see them as persuasive. My case against Elle is one that is unlikely to appeal to the masses. Cheetory's reactions and calling it nitpicking confirms my thoughts there. I think it would be moderately difficult for an objective outsider to break down what I found scummy about Elle. Kaboose's understanding here is alarming.

As for who to lynch, I feel Kaboose is on balance scummier than Elle. I will switch back if Elle is the lynch that is viable but I want everyone in this game to read Kaboose's wall. And anyone that is reading Kaboose as town should explain why. He is very clearly scum.

VOTE: Kaboose

Then why Kaboose instead of elle if you mentioned that it could be bussing since both are scum from your point?

[Kaboose]

454 @Lone Ranger, my original three scum where Corpses, Dave, and Elle. Whatisswag is on that list now too. Riddleton leans a bit towards scum for me based on his post asking you about your alt? When clearly there was much more important stuff to be caring about at that point. You, and Grib, are town reads for me right now. Everyone else I haven't seen enough of to go one way or the other.

455 @Grib, It's just that I had noticed the same thing really, in these two post...323 and 339 and I think someone pointed out that someone else also mentioned it before me. So it's definitely setting bells off in people's head. As far as your first question in 456 - Yeah I can see how that looks weird, but it didn't mean that. I was aiming to say more that "While I'm reading your posts, they don't read like..." I just wanted to say that it seems like you are both typing like you're trying to find something instead of hide something if that makes sense.

466 @Cheetory, When I read that post, it's like you were poking the bear a bit with your line of questioning. Like you were trying to instigate their arguing again.

Because it seemed weird. I don't mind her doing this but I wanted to know why it was such a strong turn to where she could say "I'm about to switch my vote just on this post!" kind of thing. My thought was she said she was close to switching to Awesome over one post, when she had already talked about numerous posts from elle that she was scum reading.

@Lone Ranger, please see above paragraph to my problem with your post about awesome username. I'm not going to call your 467 a misrep, but I said I wasn't saying you were wrong for doing it. It just seemed like a 180 degree turn to me out of now where. Like you were willing to drop everything you already had on Elle.

472 - First, let's calm down here. I feel this is a misrep of me. That first point you hit on about my three mentions... The first quote of mine was something that has been brought up once before me, and once after me. I don't think it's null at all because well I brought it up. So of course I wouldn't find it null. Also, do I actually say in that first quote that she's scummy? I don't call her scummy in that first post at all. I don't like how you make it seem like I did to meet your point later on in this post either.

Why is your biggest issue with me the fact you think I'm acting like I KNOW Elle is scum? May I point these quotes of yours out to you?

You are so scum it is funny.

in 375

AwesomeUsername is scum.

in 419

He is very clearly scum.

in 472

You have created the idea that I know Elle is scum. I don't know she is scum, but she sure acts like it to me. I even posted in my wall that there was a post of hers that seemed townish. Are you even reading my posts? How are you going to tell me I'm scum for acting like I know someone is scum, when it's the same thing you've been doing? By your own logic you're scum reading yourself then, surely?

Your remark about my wall being unnatural is probably true, it was the first time I attempted to write like that(and again in this post I'm doing it for only the second time), normally I go through and quote everything and type under it. But I figured out how to show just a link with a post number. I can see how it would sound different because it's a different way for me to post which I'm personally liking better.

This logic again makes no sense. Are you saying: I understood what you were saying about Elle, and Cheetory misunderstood what you said about Elle, so because Cheetoy misunderstood it that confirms everyone should have misunderstood it? That's really what it sounds like to me. One person understood it, but because one person misunderstood it that confirms the person who understood it shouldn't have. Is that what you're saying?

479 @Grib, that's a bold strategy. Le'ts see if it pays off. What did you think of him voting you and then admitting he hadn't finished his reading yet?

[Cheetory6]

When I read that post, it's like you were poking the bear a bit with your line of questioning. Like you were trying to instigate their arguing again.

My intent was literally closer to the opposite. MAYBE YOU'RE THE ONE WHO NEEDS TO READ BETTER.

[I'm still bitter that you said that q.q]

Because it seemed weird.

Okay.. is the following just a weird choice of words on your part?

Something about this doesn't add up to me.

Because it kind of reads to me like you're saying "this is suspicious LR!", but I guess if you take away the connotations associated with this kind of phrasing I could see how you just meant that it wasn't making sense to you. I don't know why you wouldn't just phrase it in the form of a question though lol..

LR's switch to Kaboose is.. interesting. I want to think that it's too bold for her to possibly be jumping around like this as scum unless she's trying to do something very intentionally. It would be a lot easier to sit on her elle vote and push the wagon as scum, so unless she's scummates with someone involved here, I want to say she's probably town? I kind of think her weirdness is probably town weirdness anyways.

I want GC's updated thoughts. Those would be nice.
Also, NJAC's, but I mean, more interested in GC's at the moment.

Anyways, Elle's posts seem a lot more genuine than most of the other players in the game.

Pull up example quotes, please and thank you. I'm literally getting the opposite feeling from a bunch of elle's posts, so I'd love to hear how someone reached the opposite conclusion to me here q.q

@Elle

, realistically, LR is a longshot lynch at this point, right? Like, maybe you're town and maybe she's scum and you've caught her, but with the reasoning you've got right now, you're not convincing me or anyone of her being guilty, right? Do you have thoughts on a broader level of her play beyond just lynch all liars?

@Awesomeusername

, have you played mafia anywhere else since your last game here on mafiascum in August?

[Green Crayons]

Regarding the dave/swag/elle conversation.

A.

dave:

the biggest thing that bothered me is his reasons justifying his swag vote. Grib hit all the right points in Post 312, and Kaboose summarizes my concern about dave's "disarming the opposition" tactic of preemptively declaring his vote a not-OMGUS in Post 323. The swag push looks manufactured, and the not-OMGUS declaration looks defensive.

B.

swag:

I don't like his push on dave, as the basis of the suspicion (dave was only asking meaningless questions) was too premature for the state of the game. Ultimately, though, his thought process and reasoning looks like it comes from town, even if it appears scattered at times.

C.

elle:

I'll admit that I didn't personally have a put-into-words suspicion about elle when reading her posts; it was all a general feeling of "this doesn't sound right." (Contrast this with my suspicions about dave, where Grib and Kaboose simply vocalized my already-formed suspicions.) Of the players who vocalized particular suspicions about elle, I think that (1) Cheetory's "playing it safe" suspicion (originally stated in Post 246), and (2) Kaboose's problem with elle's inquiry to dave about elle's play (Post 323 and Post 339) are the most persuasive.

Regarding this second suspicion, I don't think this is an isolated incident. I noticed that she had previously asked Corpses about her play in a similar manner (Post 118 and Post 235). Well, maybe not a similar manner, but it certainly seems to come from the same mindset: "let me figure out what this player thinks about me and try to turn it to town."

CONCLUSION

: swag still looks town, even if a bit all over the place. dave and elle look more suspicious. Kaboose looks more town.

[Green Crayons]

Regarding the elle/Ranger conversation.

A.

elle:

elle got real defensive, real quick - and used misrepresentation the process (see Post 370 and Post 375 w/r/t a misrep of Ranger's suspicions on Fairies; see Post 378 w/r/t a misrep of Ranger's vote count/deadline conversation). elle also immediate attacks her attacker on an unexceptional issue - town reads - in Post 371 and Post 374, which gets dragged out for several more posts.

B.

Ranger:

my biggest apprehension with Ranger is that the elle v. Ranger interaction looks really forced. This stems from different aspects of their conversation.

- How focused Ranger is on elle. Take Post 375 as an example. There are some legitimate points here - the misrep, the posturing - but there's extra stuff too that looks like a tunnel. For example, the "noted" comment. A suspicion like that would be more at home after a long back-and-forth between two players, when they have been at each other for a while and have convinced themselves of the other's guilt so that every little thing screams scum. So it looks really weird - possibly manufactured - when Ranger finds everything elle is doing is scummy even from the get go of their interaction.

(Huh, I just revisited Post 406 and I see swag had a similar reaction. More town points for swag.)

- The immediate buildup of wall-like posts. It really is an explosion of activity between these two players.

- Some of the twists and turns in their conversation looks like arguing for argument's sake. For example, Ranger's evolving suspicion of elle's L-4 comment just gives me a weird feeling (Post 375, Post 391, Post 398).

CONCLUSION:

elle looks more suspicious. Ranger looks more suspicious if elle flips scum - I usually dislike doing this associative tells before a flip, but this one just hit me upon read through, so I'm willing to trust (and voice) my initial apprehension with Ranger's posting.

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE: Corpses

Other things to do at the moment, so can't finish up reading, but I stopped my reread on Page 18. I want to read the remaining pages before voting, and think it over a bit more.

[Cheetory6]

Elle, you didn't give a read on ILF.
What's your read on ILF?

[elleheathen]

Then why Kaboose instead of elle if you mentioned that it could be bussing since both are scum from your point?

Thought the same.

I huge a huge pang of doubt that she might be town when she unvoted - right up until that post.

I couldn't really fathom the unvote coming from scum. But then she cleared it up by trying to lynch line Kaboose and I. Her reasoning basically amounted to her case not being one to appeal to the masses? At L-2 and with more than a few people pretty much stating they'd be willing to vote me?

Really?

It makes NO sense.

It's a lot of associative tells to make for someone who hasn't flipped.

And I would STILL be the better lynch in that scenario.

[elleheathen]

Elle, you didn't give a read on ILF.
What's your read on ILF?

Null, leaning scum - Gut read.

It's essentially why I ask Lone Ranger for her scum reads, and specifically, why ILF ranked higher than me in the scumspect list.

Because I never got a good sense of ILF - no real presence.

[Cheetory6]

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

[Green Crayons]

Some thoughts on these final few pages.

1. elle's Post 428 reads list is strikingly similar to how I am reading the game. I would only switch awesome (to lean town) and Kaboose (to town), put swag as town instead of lean scum, and put elle as a scum candidate. Despite those differences, there's a lot of overlap in how elle and I are understanding the game.

My takeaway from our apparently shared perspective is this: This reads list doesn't undercut my problems with elle's play, nor does it outweigh those problems. If elle does flip town, however, I will come back to this reads list as support of our (mostly) mutual understanding of other players.


2.

@NJAC:

Really, with Post 445 and Post 446?


3.

@Ranger:

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum.

He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads.

He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle?

Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

The bolded portions of your Kaboose suspicions describe your own play pretty spot on. Thoughts?

[NJAC]

I agree with 140. davesaz' questions were not that bad imo, so Grib calling him scum for that looks a bit out of the place.

While I finish reading:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grib

So you're going to throw a vote on Grib before you're done reading? On the person who seems to be high on most people's town reads? What does this vote accomplish exactly? I think THIS looks a bit out of place.

Well I'm not sure what exactly the vote accomplishes, but I wanted to have my vote on someone I see as scum.

While I go back to reading: Care to explain why exactly is Grib a town read? Also: Do you think that because most people think he's town, I should townread him too?

Now, back to reading...

PEDIT: @Green: Be patient please, I'm reading the whole thread, I'll make a better contribution when I finish.

[Green Crayons]

@NJAC:

I disagree with the thought process behind your vote, but I guess I understand it.

I look forward to your commentary that incorporates more recent developments.

[elleheathen]

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

[elleheathen]

Some thoughts on these final few pages.

1. elle's Post 428 reads list is strikingly similar to how I am reading the game. I would only switch awesome (to lean town) and Kaboose (to town), put swag as town instead of lean scum, and put elle as a scum candidate. Despite those differences, there's a lot of overlap in how elle and I are understanding the game.

Given the last few pages, agreed w/ awesome and Kaboose. swag isn't town for me, but he's moved more to the null side of things, probably because a lot of my frustration with him has died down.

[Grib]

Hey, NJAC, are you scum?

I dont really understand the point of this question.

Good thing I wasn't talking to you.

[NJAC]

Well, while I continue with my constantly interrupted effort of catching up, I'll leave you some of my thoughts as they're coming:

Page 7, post 165: I don't like Grib's vote on awesome. He had the chance of voting him in 156 but he only did it when elle voted him. Awesome's catch up was good IMO. The things Grib focus on and which he asks awesome to elaborate, look more like a justification for his vote than a genuine attempt to determine awesome's alignment.

Also, Grib before voting uses this sentence: "davesaz, I'll get back to killing you shortly". He wants to keep his options open, in case a wagon on dave becomes popular or something. The suspicions on dave seems, again, out of place.

I'll be happy if we lynch scumGrib today. However I'm only on page 7 so don't take this too serious, I have to see how the universal townread on him develops.

On another note: having reached page 7, Green, elle, swag, and maybe awesome look town.

More later...

[NJAC]

Hey, NJAC, are you scum?

Nope. But you already know that, right?

[Grib]

Boy, I can't wait to see this.