Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Cheetory6]

I finally feel pretty solid about a scumread and everyone starts getting cold feet q.q

LR and Kaboose

, can you give thoughts on elle's read on dave?

[Lone Ranger]

Spoiler: Elle's reads

Grib -

Obvious Town

-

I could sit here and reference almost every post he's made and point out why it's coming from town - but, look for yourself.

Green Crayons -

Town

-

I've found his posting throughout helpful, progressing, probing. The pause at the end of 129 is very 'don't fuck up my line of questioning' and comes out townish. It probably doesn't hurt that I agree with a lot of their thinking. I liked his questioning of me beginning in 173 - the interaction feels like he's genuinely trying to figure me out.

awesomeusername -

Town

-

I liked his response in 166 to my vote on him. He can see why I've put my vote on him for being 'fence-sitty' and has no worries about stating that his reads just arent very solid - something I don't think scum would be as comfortable admitting. I hesitate on this read until his 279, everything in that post feels like it's coming from a town POV. Same with 410.

Kaboose -

Leaning Town

-

I was up in the air on him until 339 - he gives a good view on why he's thinking the way he is and I especially like his appeal to Grib in it. I feel like him keeping his vote on Corpses despite Corpses being VLA is coming from town - because he has both me and davesaz as scumreads for reasons he's explained but that if he were scum, he'd have cared less who of the three he had his vote on.

Riddleton -

Null

-

NFC - I can't read him at all. I don't like that he doesn't pursue his scumread on me further with our interaction beginning in 72 but I'm not really sure what to make of it, either. I can see his hard-defense of swag coming more from scum than from town, but since I could still see it coming from town, it's null.

Cheetory6 -

Null

-

I really like their entry and that with most of his posting, you get a feel like he's moving things forward, trying to sort people. I didn't like his vote on me in 246, for the above reason, because I was someone he hadn't tried to question or even engage at all and his reasoning is fairly weak to not even pose a question about it with it. I feel like at that point, he's more trying to convince people I'm scum as opposed to figure out if I actually am scum - although part of me says that he may be trying to sort me indirectly. But 301 and on (with the exception of 399) makes me me lean back towards townish again. Ends up null - though I don't think it would take much to make me lean one way or the other.

NJAC -

Null

.

I can't see anything in his limited posts that's alignment indicative - I could see it coming from either town or scum. Although, I feel like his empty promises from 187 and on are more likely to come from town because I feel like scum would be a little more cautious about not following through with their catchup - but I'm not putting a ton of weight in that.

CorpsesInEthanol -

Nullish

-

I'm tentative on the hydra being possible scum, referenced by my 162, 219 and 236. I still think their explanation could go a long way in my read, though - especially if it comes without a rhyme. (Your metre is tight, don't get me wrong - but it's easier to gauge when not in sing-song.)

davesaz -

Null, Leaning Scum

-

Ugh. Just ugh. If you're town, you should at least

try

to read me better. I keep looking at his 259, and him addressing why swags play and hunting for masons and associations is srs scum play and his posting afterwards that looks like he's trying to sort swag. It looks like a town progression. But his switch on me is just... flat. No questioning, no real attempt to read me. I go from null town, to null leaning scum to scum without really much interaction at all. With his description of how he scum hunts in point 1 of 314, it doesn't sit well with me because he's not doing that. Maybe he's reading me from my posting to others but again,

ughhh

.

Whatisswag -

Leaning Scum

-

I'm pretty much just done trying with this slot. I can't actually tell 'if he's town that's just making himself look scummier by not giving a damn about what he posts or scum that just doesn't know how to not give himself away'. I ask questions, he dodges. I'm going to say this as nicely as I can: I can't tell if he's actually just being deliberately obtuse with his responses or if he's just... missing it alto-fucking-gether. Example: Him dodging the questions asked of him in 311 and 312. Both relatively the same question but one I want to see the response to, too. He doesn't answer when he returns. I point him in their direction. He comes back in 373 answering my 309, because what? Maybe he thought I meant my last post in 309 instead of what I'd actually said as 311/312? So I quote it again and I get 'lolwut?' Because reading is hard? I'm going to say it now: I will vote this slot - and I'm ridiculously biased because I no longer care whether he's town or scum - trying to make sense of him is frustrating the hell out of me.

Lone Ranger -

Scum

-

Lynch all liars.

I've made my line of thinking on the slot pretty clear in thread already (starting from 366) - so no, I'm not voting her for the policy but if you don't think the back and forth over not providing reads while saying that you have them, only to ultimately NOT HAVE THEM, isn't scum - then you should consider the policy for yourself.

I mean, the people I'm most worried about are your top three townreads besides Grib. So, if you are town, you see games much, much differently than I see them.

[Grib]

My current problem with elle is her association with davesaz, and Cheetory6 already pointed that out. So. I'd like her to respond to that.

[Grib]

Do you always jump to conclusions about whether there is a point to a question or not, or only when you're scum?

Do you typically like to wait until deadline to lynch - or just as scum?

I thought this was funny.

[Kaboose]

I finally feel pretty solid about a scumread and everyone starts getting cold feet q.q

LR and Kaboose

, can you give thoughts on elle's read on dave?

I read her dave blurb in her reads post and I don't know what to think of it.

The one thing that stands out, and I really doubt this is anything but it struck me a bit odd. She calls him a "null, scum lean" and then starts with saying "If you're town..."

[elleheathen]

UNVOTE:

[elleheathen]

Elle could be town. Her latest posts felt townish.

I felt the same about you with your unvote - because I had a hard time seeing that coming from scum.

But then the association with Kaboose came and I was like 'Oh, that explains it' because it felt like you were lynch-lining us which made your unvote make sense to me again. But arguing that is basically just saying I wouldn't have associated myself that way with Kaboose if I were scum but all I have to prove that is two games of meta, and meta can be changed.

So, here: White Flag.

I'll try and forget what I think about your not wanting to give me your reads as scum if you can at least consider for a moment that I may be town.

Who do you think is scum?

I don't get why it would bug you when I associated you with Kaboose though. My plan as scum in that case would be hop off of the Elle mislynch wagon, tie Kaboose to Elle, bus the shit out of Kaboose, and after he flipped scum, mislynch you for being his partner. That wouldn't make sense as a scum strategy at all considering your mislynch was up for the taking without bussing Kaboose as well. If Kaboose were town, tying him to you would be pointless as his townflip means my arguments are invalidated and I'd have to concoct new ones. It would be a far better scum strategy to consider options for who is scum if you are town, see the lynch through and then attack those people.

I have Kaboose as town so I was thinking more along the lines of: he flips town and it still gives you a good avenue to not have to NK me and in D2 to come back to me because the association has nothing to do with my play and what people are thinking I'm scummy for. Figured it would be a good way for a 2fer on scums part so when I saw it after the unvote, which at the time I didn't see coming from scum, it's what made me think the unvote made sense for a scum.

But I feel better about it after this explanation.

Awesome could be scum if you are town. The hedging makes a ton of sense from someone that wants to see a lynch through but not want to get their hands dirty.

GreenCrayons's latest posts worry me as well. His take on our argument roughly echoes majority opinion in the thread although I'm not sure I can point out specifics. The whole "their argument looks scumVscum" "tunneling" "too focussed on each other" etc. There are no new insights. There is also a lack of assertiveness and his take seemed a bit hesitant and wishy-washy.

I see the point on awesome - I'm still waiting to see what he makes of his meta analysis of me, though I'm not sure it makes any difference.

The only thing that confuses me on GC is why he wanted my response in 505 to those posts - but I may yet get that answer.

Your GC read feels similarly to my Cheetory read, insofar as it's hard to point out specifics. With a lot of the things he posts, I get the feeling that they're just set up as traps - like his 399 to you or the way he phrases his 518 to me.

Another one that gives me odd feels is his 502, where he mentions Riddle's absence in a positive light, corpses absence in a negative light, and then doesn't at all mention davesaz's absence. But I can't really pinpoint exactly what bothers me about it, just that it feels like selectively calling people out differently for doing the same thing, if that makes sense.

[elleheathen]

How can it be two independent things? Like.. how can you have a scumread on someone and at the same time say "I would not lynch this person on policy of X reason"? I just really don't get it and it looks to me like you messed up and forgot that you said that. You said that it would take a lot for you to consider lynching dave or Kaboose today, and that 'a lot' was apparently just him not appearing to try and directly sort you and him putting you at L-2 for semi-weak reasons?

is in any way what I'm calling 'reaaaaally sure'.

I mean, I guess, but you literally said this a few posts later:

You can take that 'null' part out, now.

Are you seriously going to tell me that this isn't you implying that you're becoming reasonably okay with the idea of lynching him? Even if you aren't voting him, your next suspicion is Swag which you openly admit is more out of frustration than anything plus with the following:

swag isn't town for me, but he's moved more to the null side of things, probably because a lot of my frustration with him has died down.

You can stop trying to put words in my mouth anytime. Again, here is what I've said on it:

I'm still holding to my feels that the first to confirms will be the least likely to be scums and would rather lynch outside of them today - unless they really just do something that starts absolutely screaming scum to me.

But yes, I get what you're saying and I even partially agree that it may be largely flawed due to the holidays. It's why I've amended that they're not in my vote pool for

today

unless I'm

reaaaally

sure they're scum.

That does not say that I will not read them. It does not say that I will not question them. It does not say that I will not consider the possibility of them being scum despite that I think it's unlikely given a small pre-game fact.

What it does say is that unless I'm 'reaaaaally sure' that they're scum, I'm not voting for them today.

And even davesaz moving from Null, Leaning Scum to Leaning Scum is not 'reaaaally sure'. If it does become 'reaaaaally sure', you will know it.

[elleheathen]

I finally feel pretty solid about a scumread and everyone starts getting cold feet q.q

LR and Kaboose

, can you give thoughts on elle's read on dave?

I read her dave blurb in her reads post and I don't know what to think of it.

The one thing that stands out, and I really doubt this is anything but it struck me a bit odd. She calls him a "null, scum lean" and then starts with saying "If you're town..."

Just reading too much into it, Kab.

I'm appealing to him:

davesaz -

Null, Leaning Scum

-

Ugh. Just ugh. If you're town, you should at least

try

to read me better. I keep looking at his 259, and him addressing why swags play and hunting for masons and associations is srs scum play and his posting afterwards that looks like he's trying to sort swag. It looks like a town progression. But his switch on me is just... flat. No questioning, no real attempt to read me. I go from null town, to null leaning scum to scum without really much interaction at all. With his description of how he scum hunts in point 1 of 314, it doesn't sit well with me because he's not doing that. Maybe he's reading me from my posting to others but again,

ughhh

.

The majority of why he's leaning scum there is because of what I see as him not even

trying

to read me. So, '

If you're town

, you should at least

try

to read me better' because if he's not, I can see why he's not trying to read me at all.

[elleheathen]

@ILF, davesaz and GC

, what's your read on Cheetory?

[Cheetory6]

Maybe your playstyle is just.. different. But to me that literally comes across as being the most ridiculous way to think about this game.
"I will not lynch these people even though they might be scum, but I'm not townreading them because of the reason that I'm saying that I won't lynch them"
The thing that I'm really just not buying is that your read on any of them is apparently completely uninfluenced by this reason that you're giving for not wanting to lynch them. Like, how can you justify saying "I will not lynch this person" unless you think that they're town? That literally makes zero sense to me and the way you keep jumping around this and the fact that you forgot about it when giving your dave read feels like scum bullshit.

[Cheetory6]

Also,

Who would you compromise lynch on if not dave? Is LR literally the only person you'd want to lynch at the moment?

[Cheetory6]

Trying not to be snarky about elle slyly trying to push an incoming suspicion on me without trying to engage me on my reasoning behind things when she called me scummy for that earlier.
Trying real hard.

[Cheetory6]

Another one that gives me odd feels is his 502, where he mentions Riddle's absence in a positive light, corpses absence in a negative light, and then doesn't at all mention davesaz's absence. But I can't really pinpoint exactly what bothers me about it, just that it feels like selectively calling people out differently for doing the same thing, if that makes sense.

Corpse left in the middle of being the main wagon and it annoyed me that he didn't replace because it could have stalled the game really hard. If he's town, that was a shitty thing to do. If he's scum, then that's an annoying derail.
I've played with Riddle before and I have no idea where he stands on things right now. I consider myself closer to him than I do to dave or Math/whoever his other head is.
Have never played with dave before and I relatively know where he stands right now.
Hence differences in how I'm responding to each of them not being here.

Your GC read feels similarly to my Cheetory read, insofar as it's hard to point out specifics. With a lot of the things he posts, I get the feeling that they're just set up as traps - like his 399 to you or the way he phrases his 518 to me.

I used to just hardpush people when I wanted reads. I'm relatively new to mafiascum and have only recently gotten into the idea of sorting people. If my questioning is forceful, it's because I'm leaning scum on someone. Was leaning scum on LR when I started questioning her. I strongly think you're scum right now and I don't see why you would be coming from where you are right now from a townPOV. I'd love to hear why I'm wrong on this, but nothing you've hinted at so far in your last few responses to me feels like it's coming from anywhere legitimate.

Are you going to actually question me now or are you just going to pitch something else to everyone else in the game again?

[elleheathen]

I've been very clear throughout about why I think this way, what it means for my play, and what I will and will not do about it, especially in my posts 516 and 532 to you.

So I don't see how you can say that I'm 'jumping around this'.

You say it makes zero sense to you. What kind of sense does it make for me IF I WERE SCUM to take three people OUT of my lynchpool? Unless of course, you think that I'm scum with all of them?

And what's 'bullshit' is you stating that:

and the fact that you forgot about it when giving your dave read feels like scum bullshit.

as if it actually

is

a fact, even though I pointed out the huge flaw in it to you already. I didn't make a note of it in my reads list on Kaboose or NJAC, either - so why would I have ONLY had to make a note of it on davesaz if my thinking is not EXCLUSIVE to davesaz? Here, read it again:

Wait, gross.
Elle, why would you discard your pregame thoughts on dave in your readslist? You were willing to bet your lynch on it 1v1 and you forgot about it in your readslist? That really makes me feel like that was just bullshit.

My 'pregame thoughts' are not exclusively on dave but on:

davesaz
NJAC
Kaboose

And they have not been discarded.

[elleheathen]

Maybe your playstyle is just.. different. But to me that literally comes across as being the most ridiculous way to think about this game.
"I will not lynch these people even though they might be scum, but I'm not townreading them because of the reason that I'm saying that I won't lynch them"
The thing that I'm really just not buying is that your read on any of them is apparently completely uninfluenced by this reason that you're giving for not wanting to lynch them. Like, how can you justify saying "I will not lynch this person" unless you think that they're town? That literally makes zero sense to me and the way you keep jumping around this and the fact that you forgot about it when giving your dave read feels like scum bullshit.

I've been very clear throughout about why I think this way, what it means for my play, and what I will and will not do about it, especially in my posts 516 and 532 to you.

So I don't see how you can say that I'm 'jumping around this'.

You say it makes zero sense to you. What kind of sense does it make for me IF I WERE SCUM to take three people OUT of my lynchpool? Unless of course, you think that I'm scum with all of them?

And what's 'bullshit' is you stating that:

and the fact that you forgot about it when giving your dave read feels like scum bullshit.

as if it actually

is

a fact, even though I pointed out the huge flaw in it to you already. I didn't make a note of it in my reads list on Kaboose or NJAC, either - so why would I have ONLY had to make a note of it on davesaz if my thinking is not EXCLUSIVE to davesaz? Here, read it again:

Wait, gross.
Elle, why would you discard your pregame thoughts on dave in your readslist? You were willing to bet your lynch on it 1v1 and you forgot about it in your readslist? That really makes me feel like that was just bullshit.

My 'pregame thoughts' are not exclusively on dave but on:

davesaz
NJAC
Kaboose

And they have not been discarded.

ebwop

[Cheetory6]

What kind of sense does it make for me IF I WERE SCUM to take three people OUT of my lynchpool? Unless of course, you think that I'm scum with all of them?

Golly, maybe so you can use this kind of defense? Are you actually trying to use WIFOM like this to defend yourself on this point? :/

as if it actually is a fact, even though I pointed out the huge flaw in it to you already. I didn't make a note of it in my reads list on Kaboose or NJAC, either - so why would I have ONLY had to make a note of it on davesaz if my thinking is not EXCLUSIVE to davesaz? Here, read it again:

I really fail to see how this addresses the point I'm trying to make. If anything it reinforces it because you forgot about it for all of them. I just don't understand how you can say 'this person shouldn't be lynched' without saying you have a townread on them for that reason.

Did you think that they should arbitrarily be kept alive even though you didn't think they were more likely to be town?

[Cheetory6]

Like, you're acting like it's alright that you discarded reasoning that you said you were willing to pull them out of the lynchpool for in your readslist, as if it shouldn't influence your read on them. That makes absolutely no sense.

[elleheathen]

Also,

Who would you compromise lynch on if not dave? Is LR literally the only person you'd want to lynch at the moment?

I don't think I

need

to 'compromise lynch'.

No, LR is not 'literally the only person I would want to lynch at the moment'.

I've unvoted LR, as in my white flag post, I agreed that I would try and forget what I think about her not wanting to give me her reads as scum if she would consider me town for a moment.

She held up her end of the bargain, that was mine.

So no, unless I start thinking she's scum for reasons other than that, I will not be voting LR.

So with confirms, towns and this, that's me not wanting to vote for:

Kaboose. NJAC. davesaz. Grib. GC. awesomeusername. and now LR.

So 7.

That's a hell of a lot of people for me to not be willing to vote for right now if I were scum, don't you think?

Oh right - I'm using this as a defense.

[elleheathen]

as if it actually is a fact, even though I pointed out the huge flaw in it to you already. I didn't make a note of it in my reads list on Kaboose or NJAC, either - so why would I have ONLY had to make a note of it on davesaz if my thinking is not EXCLUSIVE to davesaz? Here, read it again:

I really fail to see how this addresses the point I'm trying to make. If anything it reinforces it because you forgot about it for all of them.

Not mentioning something where it is not relevant and when it's already been stated in thread does not = 'forgot about it for all of them'.

I just don't understand how you can say 'this person shouldn't be lynched' without saying you have a townread on them for that reason.

Please, point me to where I say 'this person shouldn't be lynched' - when I haven't tried to convince anyone else that just because it's what I think, that that's how they should think, too.

I'm done responding to this.

[Cheetory6]

I can make you look bad by using emoticons too.
Watch:

[Grib]

elle, instead of narrowing your lynchpool for silly reasons, why don't you vote and scumhunt?

Tell me whom you'd like dead and why.

[davesaz]

I finally feel pretty solid about a scumread and everyone starts getting cold feet q.q

LR and Kaboose

, can you give thoughts on elle's read on dave?

Which scumread are you referring to here?

[davesaz]

Maybe he's reading me from my posting to others but again,

ughhh

.

The majority of why he's leaning scum there is because of what I see as him not even

trying

to read me. So, '

If you're town

, you should at least

try

to read me better' because if he's not, I can see why he's not trying to read me at all.

The inside quote was somewhat on target. I do read people by their interactions with others, more than by interacting with them myself. My RL personality is like that too. In technical/leadership situations I drive things in the direction I want them to go in, but in social situations I tend to listen 3-4x as much as I talk. Consequently, at times it's a real challenge to meet the minimum posting level for games.

I'm often told that this kind of revelation is not terribly useful here because it's self meta.

[Cheetory6]

I don't think I need to 'compromise lynch'.

Not really the point. "Who would your second choice be for lynching?"

That's a hell of a lot of people for me to not be willing to vote for right now if I were scum, don't you think?

Again, you're throwing this around like it's a trophy as to why you're town.

I agreed that I would try and forget what I think about her not wanting to give me her reads as scum if she would consider me town for a moment.

I don't really understand how you can bargain away your scumread here?

Not mentioning something where it is not relevant and when it's already been stated in thread does not = 'forgot about it for all of them'.

Because it shouldn't be relevant to how you're reading them or anything?

Please, point me to where I say 'this person shouldn't be lynched' - when I haven't tried to convince anyone else that just because it's what I think, that that's how they should think, too.

This really isn't the point of what I'm trying to say.

Which scumread are you referring to here?

Elle.