Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Whatisswag]

Wait a minute, I just saw something outside of this thread. dave is town too.

dave is conf town to me. I will be willing to be lynched instead of letting dave be lynched.

[Armageddon]

Vote count
Day 1.8

Players alive: 13

Players needed to lynch: 7

awesomeusername

- 1 - Whatisswag - (L-6)

CorpsesInEthanol

- 1 - Riddleton - (L-6)

davesaz

- 1 - Green Crayons - (L-6)

elleheathen

- 4 - CorpsesInEthanol, Cheetory6, Grib, davesaz - (L-3)

Grib

- 1 - NJAC - (L-6)

Kaboose

- 1 - Lone Ranger - (L-6)

NJAC

- 1 - Kaboose - (L-6)

Whatisswag

- 1 - I Love Fairies - (L-6)

Mod notes:

I Love Fairies has failed to respond to their second prod and will be replaced.
awesomeusername has requested replacement

Deadline is in

(expired on 2015-01-14 20:45:00)

[/b]

[Cheetory6]

q.q
Swag, I feel like that might get you in trouble. I'd recommend you ask the mod before you go any further with whatever thought it is that you have.

[Whatisswag]

You guys have no fucking idea what I saw outside of this thread that makes dave town. Anyway, he is town. dave, whoever you want to be lynched, I will follow your decision.

VOTE: elle

As long as I dont quote from outside the thread, I am fine. I just went back to look at the rules again.

[Whatisswag]

By the way, if you guys are wondering, it was a post dave made 4 months ago.

[davesaz]

From the way you're talking, it sounds like you found something in my town meta which matched this game. While it can sometimes be a good way to get a read, using meta is not 100% reliable. In particular it can be very weak when there is no scum meta to compare to.

[davesaz]

Dave's response to Green's vote irks me. Honestly gives me a bit of an impression that he was actively lurking, saw GC's vote, felt the need to call it out and then made other posts because he was worried that people would give him flak for actively lurking.

This is an accurate interpretation of events, but being worried about taking flak isn't alignment indicative for me. If anything I worry more about it as town than as scum, though I can't suggest checking my scum meta on this site.

[davesaz]

Of those 5, which are you most confident of being scum?

Let's explore the cheetory read. I could go back and reread, but could you summarize what makes him scummy?

What was yours? You never said when asked.
I think it would benefit you more to actually go back and read.

Fair enough. I see Cheetory asking questions to determine alignment, and pointing out things that don't logically make sense in others replies. As scum he could easily have stopped asking questions once he had something scummy enough as evidence to push a mislynch. Instead, he gives allowances that there could be a misunderstanding and looks for clarifications. This shows town motivation. I admit though that I didn't go back through the entire game at this time.

I assume your read on Cheetory is based mainly on how he's digging at your answers to questions? I also found your answers to be somewhat inconsistent -- if you make allowances for people having trouble understanding what you wrote, does that change your impression of their motivation in seeking clarification?

---

It appears likely at least one scum is in the set of people lurking more than I had been, and it's even possible that all of them are in that pool.

I'm beginning to think that swag and elle could both be town, and the faintly scummy things I saw were more playstyle issues.

[Cheetory6]

1. I use an argument technique that I call disarming the opposition. It consists of anticipating things the opposition may use in rebuttal, and preempting them.

2. I put some of the other reasons in the same post, before the portion you quoted.

3. There is an inconsistency between how Whatisswag is treating my posting and several others who have done much less.

I like that dave is consistent with this and is being open about it. I'm starting to get a lot of townleans q.q I might re-ISO Kaboose/Grib tonight and see if I still feel the same about them.

@Arm

, can Corpse get a prod soon too?

Mod edit: He's already been prodded, he has till tonight (my time) to respond or I'll start looking for a replacement

[Cheetory6]

I briefly skimmed back to find what Swag was talking about and couldn't find it though. q.q
Imma move on with my life because I'm in a lot of games now.

[elleheathen]

I dont know, but if elle gets to L-1 then I am willing to hammer.

Do you think she's scum?

The town side of null.

You don't think I'm scum - you even have me on the

town

side of null - but you'll hammer me. Wtf swag.

You guys have no fucking idea what I saw outside of this thread that makes dave town. Anyway, he is town. dave, whoever you want to be lynched, I will follow your decision.

VOTE: elle

As long as I dont quote from outside the thread, I am fine. I just went back to look at the rules again.

And here I thought your willingness to hammer your

town

side of null read couldn't get any more ridiculous. Much better to justify a vote on me with out-of-nowhere, no-proof/reference/explanation provided read of davesaz and then sheeping him.

[Cheetory6]

Do you think Swag's reasoning for pushing for you is coming from scum-motivation?

[elleheathen]

No idea.

My read on him still applies.

I'm pretty much just done trying with this slot. I can't actually tell 'if he's town that's just making himself look scummier by not giving a damn about what he posts or scum that just doesn't know how to not give himself away'. I ask questions, he dodges. I'm going to say this as nicely as I can: I can't tell if he's actually just being deliberately obtuse with his responses or if he's just... missing it alto-fucking-gether. Example: Him dodging the questions asked of him in 311 and 312. Both relatively the same question but one I want to see the response to, too. He doesn't answer when he returns. I point him in their direction. He comes back in 373 answering my 309, because what? Maybe he thought I meant my last post in 309 instead of what I'd actually said as 311/312? So I quote it again and I get 'lolwut?' Because reading is hard? I'm going to say it now: I will vote this slot - and I'm ridiculously biased because I no longer care whether he's town or scum - trying to make sense of him is frustrating the hell out of me.

Just another thing to add to it.

[Cheetory6]

Given that awesome is replacing out, can we get your thoughts on him now and why he sounded town to you?

[elleheathen]

Other than what I said in my read, his posting just made me feel like it was coming from town.
Like:

It struck me that elle acted differently towards Ranger than I remember her acting towards other people, almost immediately. It looks like her voting history goes swag -> awesome -> swag -> Ranger (which is fewer people than I expected and doesn't support Cheetory's argument that she attacked lots of easy targets), and I know several people have voted her, but I didn't remember elle bristling like this before. I can see a few similar moments in her ISO, though. I need to meta elle to figure out whether this is just playstyle.

Him breaking your point on me.
Him ISO diving me to check on his own point against me.
I was waiting on the meta-dive. I didn't really care what he came back with - I think the effort in that case would have made me think more town than scum.

[davesaz]

elle, comments on my post about Cheetory?

[Green Crayons]

Jesus, 7 days still?

UNVOTE: dave

[elleheathen]

elle, comments on my post about Cheetory?

Mostly I just find it curious that you're trying to work with me to 'explore my Cheetory read' - when he's your townread and I'm your scumread.

I wasn't going to

bother

commenting as you saying:

I assume your read on Cheetory is based mainly on how he's digging at your answers to questions?

says to me that you didn't

bother

to actually read it if you have to

assume

.

And:

I also found your answers to be somewhat inconsistent -- if you make allowances for people having trouble understanding what you wrote, does that change your impression of their motivation in seeking clarification?

You'll have to be more clear if you're expecting a response.
What answers? Inconsistence with what? Specific instance instead of generalization?

[Green Crayons]

Let's see the options.

awesomeusername

- 1 - Whatisswag - (L-6)

I still stand by Post 504 that swag's associative suspicions aren't worth anything. Ranger's observations of his hedging in Post 419 and Post 430 is legit, though, and is worth scum points.

CorpsesInEthanol

- 1 - Riddleton - (L-6)

Hey this guy is still being voted by another guy who is still voting him. The hydra appears to be half dead. Corpses apparently doesn't have the energy to keep the hydra active in this game for some reason. Boo.

davesaz

- 1 - Green Crayons - (L-6)

Meh, but sure.

elleheathen

- 4 - CorpsesInEthanol, Cheetory6, Grib, davesaz - (L-3)

Meh, but sure.

Grib

- 1 - NJAC - (L-6)

No.

Kaboose

- 1 - Lone Ranger - (L-6)

Disagree with everything Ranger has said. dave has a somewhat valid point in Post 588 w/r/t Kaboose's NJAC vote, but I was also tempted to vote NJAC after reading Grib's NJAC complaint, so I see where a Kaboose-town would be coming from to vote NJAC.

NJAC

- 1 - Kaboose - (L-6)

Wouldn't be the worst thing for one of the lurkers to be lynched.

Whatisswag

- 1 - I Love Fairies - (L-6)

swag is still town.

Out of the lurkers, though, I think I would opt for Fairies over others. She has been sufficiently active to not be a complete nonentity, but I don't think she has provided much in the way of substantive contribution. Even her swag suspicions/vote in Post 476 feel really outdated - like she saw that swag got some heat at some point in time, and so she thought he'd be a safe vote at a time when her Riddle vote was getting stale.

VOTE: Fairies

[Grib]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: I Love Fairies

This wagon has my support.

elle, the more you lurk, the less I care about lynching elsewhere.

lol, I love that this comes right after one of my posts. Srsly.

You're a special kind of lurker.

I'd like you to scumhunt, or vote, or push someone, or at least do something that shows you aren't going to die quietly if you do end up being the lynch. It feels like you've given up and are just posting to post. I mean if your latest posts are your version of scumhunting, then forget what I've said.

[Grib]

Oh wait, ILF is being replaced. Hm.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: elleheathen

Maybe later.

[Grib]

So that leaves:
Cheetory. ILF. Corpses. swag. and Riddleton.

Like, good for you for having a list of people you want to lynch, but it's completely meaningless if you're just going to sit there and not do anything about them.

[elleheathen]

I'd like you to scumhunt, or vote, or push someone, or at least do something that shows you aren't going to die quietly if you do end up being the lynch. It feels like you've given up and are just posting to post. I mean if your latest posts are your version of scumhunting, then forget what I've said.

All I've been doing up until the last few days was doing something to show I wasn't going to 'die quietly'.
Now, though?
Yeah, that's a pretty accurate assessment of me, for once.

I feel like I'm one of the only towns actually

trying

in this game - and that my trying is only leading to my lynch, that everything I say is just one more thing to pick apart while trying to ISO dive me for excuses or try and use associative bullshit pre-flips. I have pretty much given up - I have a very 'why bother' attitude atm.

So go for it. Just lynch me.

Here, let me help.

I'm just a VT.

At least with killing me, you'll know it's at least not chancing a mason lynch.

And if I were a mason, I'd be recruiting either GC or Cheetory - probably GC, tonight.

Not that I think it will help you much, at this rate.

If town are the ones that are the absentees, then they did us a huge disservice and we were screwed from the start of this.

And if it's scum, that's a sad way to have to win if you have to afkout to get past a day.

Good luck, town - you're going to need it.

[davesaz]

elle, comments on my post about Cheetory?

Mostly I just find it curious that you're trying to work with me to 'explore my Cheetory read' - when he's your townread and I'm your scumread.

I wasn't going to

bother

commenting as you saying:

I assume your read on Cheetory is based mainly on how he's digging at your answers to questions?

says to me that you didn't

bother

to actually read it if you have to

assume

.

And:

I also found your answers to be somewhat inconsistent -- if you make allowances for people having trouble understanding what you wrote, does that change your impression of their motivation in seeking clarification?

You'll have to be more clear if you're expecting a response.
What answers? Inconsistence with what? Specific instance instead of generalization?

Maybe it's time for me to be blunt too.

I read your whole ISO, and I can't find a single post where you come right out and say cheetory is scummy and why. You say he's in your "willing to vote" pile and that's as close as you come.

[Cheetory6]

Is the lack of an attempt to directly interact with me to sort me just you feeling disengaged from the game or what?
I find it kind of annoying that you're acting like none of us are trying here when both GC and I haven't just been pushing for you to die without trying to sort through what you're saying. The way you've responded to me strongly indicates that you have no interest in trying to understand why I feel like you're scum.

My main point on you remains unanswered and it feels like you waded through unimportant details of what I was saying to try and redirect attention away from the disconnect between your reads and your unwillingness to lynch people and I still think that's pretty scummy. All I've really gotten in response to my point there is "I wouldn't clear the table of all but five people as lynches as scum", which is a style of argument that I found in your scum meta [and to be fair, your town meta] and really just an unconvincing way to clear up what I'm asking you.

So, here. Let me put this all into a single question that you can't potentially mistakenly get distracted from if you're somehow town:

How can your pregame thoughts which make someone unlikely to be town have absolutely no effect on how you're reading someone?