Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Wickedestjr]

Heres why I chose this game:
Most people prefer to scumhunt in the conventional way. Some players use meta a lot to scumhunt. Others, including myself, use role-related and setup-related points mainly for scumhunting.
This setup has so much variance, which is what drew me to the game. I am viewing this setup as closer to a logic puzzle than other mafia setups, as a large amount of players hold small pieces of information about the setup.
I am a late game player. Ill still scum hunt in the conventional way, but when i make cases, please place more weight on my role-related arguments than my conventional arguments.

What is your reason/purpose for saying this? For the record, I think we will be in conventional scum hunting phase for at least two game days, depending on the number of Ts.

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus.

She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule)

.

Why are you making this assumption? While you could be right, there is no evidence for your assumption and at least one other reason why mastin wouldn't want to out her reads yet. I don't like this: feels like you're too quick to defend mastin here.

[Wickedestjr]

I would agree with this. Those overly concerned with maintaining a town look, and their own meta is moderately scummy.

I have observed that being concerned with looking town isn't very alignment indicative, but reading that concern as scummy is somewhat indicative of scum (i.e. scum use it for a "case" more often than town do).

This is a scummy response. Read carefully guys. This is a whole bunch of words that says "I'm not scummy, you are" with zero defense or explanation. dodgy and vettrock had a valid point against you. You simply deflected with a subtle accusation that feels disingenuous.

being experienced doesnt mean i should blindly trust him. so far i dont have any idea why she thinks dave is scum.. let alone a full explanation

TBH, my bet is "reaction test". So I'm not all that concerned about it really.

If you really thought this was a reaction test, why would you point that out? I think a reaction test is ruined if the test subjects know it's a reaction test.

Wicked, 68 – there's truth in your logic. But, according to my experience, making discussions and cases out of very little things is a null-tell.

That's exactly my point. beast shouldn't be criticizing the 'discussions and cases out of little things', because it's pretty null. I'm not asking to be town read for my early "hard trying". But I do think it's suspicious and anti-town of beast to discourage my and copper's 'premature' efforts.

@Eyestott
why do you think dodge is leaning scum on you for being mister nice guy?

Question feels weak considering dodge voted eyestott. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but what are you hoping to gain through this inquiry?


By the way, Faustbyte = Tean Samargo.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, just in case people didn't realize, Tean Samargo is a hydra.

Off topic;

@mastin: If you're using the observation that I've flipped town in every game to predict I'm scum here, remember that dice have no memory. BTW is there a record for longest streak rolling town on this site?

I don't think there is an official record anywhere. However, I once went thirteen games in a row without drawing a scum role pm. Some other players that come to mind;
-Vi: I remember him saying once that he gets scum even less than I do.
-Seacore: active a few years ago, has about as much experience as I do and I don't think he ever drew a scum role pm. (Not sure if he plays any more).
So, I don't know, but it's an interesting question.

(Stay tuned. More thoughts, reads, and potential vote change coming up later)

[copper223]

@Wicked

@Eyestott
why do you think dodge is leaning scum on you for being mister nice guy?

Question feels weak considering dodge voted eyestott. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but what are you hoping to gain through this inquiry?

I want both perspectives on their direct meta.

[mastin2]

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

...
"I don't trust you. Why is he scum? I might vote him, though."


...Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, to answer, basically everything. davesaz is throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book.

[mastin2]

TBH, my bet is "reaction test". So I'm not all that concerned about it really.

Remember how I said I was 90% serious?

The other 10% was the reaction test. (Okay, so to be fair, it's probably better to say I was 60% serious and 40% reaction-testing, and exaggerating the number for the sake of furthering the reaction test, butstill, you get the idea.)

But I was serious then, and am even MORE serious now. My other reads are fluid. As in, they're massively flowing in my mind and I haven't nailed them down quite yet. (I'll try at some time in the immediate future.) But dave? Dave IS scum. I'm not sure if I'm going to really be able to explain it. Like, I can explain the basic not-very-well-based reasoning for the original read easily enough; it was just so plain compared to the other more interesting confirms that I figured "probably just scum who got it out of the way". The weakest of weak possible reasons, thus one reason why I hold onto said reasoning and not explain it immediately. (Because if people knew how weak it was, I'd lose the reactions.)

SINCE then, though, there's plenty more that's much stronger. Like, all of it, really. As in, basically everything dave says, I think, "yep, scum". I'm not sure I can really find the words for it. They're not coherent. But dave has done nothing but scumposting. While, yes, I was originally reaction-testing him, and while, yes, my original reasoning was weak, since then, the read has grown stronger off of much stronger reasoning. I'm just trying to figure out how to make that come across as more than just gibberish right now.

But he's scum. You can trust me on that.

[mastin2]

Heartless:

Where are you? I want to talk some.

[mastin2]

I once went thirteen games in a row without drawing a scum role pm. Some other players that come to mind.

That's nothing.

Try 30. (Or was it 40? It was either 30 or 40.)

2014's been the year of the town PM for me. Annoyingly, it's continued into this year, too. A semi-open is a DREAM for scuMastin; I thrive in that environment. (Heck, one of my favorite scum games ever was a semi-open.) Ah, well. I'll make up for it by making 2015 the year of "lynching scum and getting immediately nightkilled for it".

[copper223]

VOTE: Dave
I'm game Mastin.

Wicked is likely town.

I don't get the hate on Killa, he did not OMGUS everyone voting for him, he said he finds people voting for him without what he believes to be a valid reason scummy, which is different, best guess him vs teen is tvt.

I don't know exactly why, but I find Vettrock scummy, it looks like he is weighting every post to make sure it's good before posting.

Beast also likely town for that vote flailing he did (terrible logic though).

[Wickedestjr]

Players I am already confidently town reading: killapenwin and dodgy

Killapenwin;

-From reading his posts, I get the impression that he doesn't worry about what others will think about his posts. E.g. when he criticized the random voting, he was the first and only person to do that. I think it would be tough for penwinscum to go against and criticize the norm. So it felt like he was genuinely bothered - and he wouldn't be if he were mafia.
-He is overly defensive and it feels like genuine frustration towards the people that have found his posts suspicious, as if he knows his attackers are wrong.
-The case against him seems to be: overly self-defensive and contradictory behavior, but "overly defensive" doesn't seem like a scum tell for him and "contradictory behavior" is what I would expect from a player with his level of experience. He had the "Goon" title at game start and clearly isn't familiar with site meta given his RVS-criticism. The contradictions are bad and worth questioning, but I've seen many an inexperienced townie contradict so it doesn't bother me this time either. I think the town tells I pointed out are much stronger than the case against him.

The pen win is town.
I can make a haiku too.
Scum is voting him.

dodgy;

-Feels like he is paying very close attention to what is happening in thread.
-Really feels like he is contributing because he is interested in scum hunting rather than due to an obligation to impress. I find myself agreeing with a lot of his thoughts.
-eyestott was friendly and helping dodgy. I like how dodgy turned around and called him out on buddying. I don't think dodgy would have done that if he were scum.


Players that I have issue with: beast, eyestott, davesaz

beast;

-See post 68. I think I have explained it several times so I'm not going to again unless there's still confusion.
-It bothers me that he completely disappeared after I called him out.

eyestott;

-Potential buddying of dodgy and mastin.
-His conventional vs. role-related scum hunting reflection post feels like he is excusing himself to not scum hunt much/well now. I don't see a town motive for the post.
-I don't like the penwin mini wagon and he is a part of it.

davesaz;

-One of his first, few, and only contributions was that my use of the phrase "I'm liking my vote more now" is scummy.
-Twice he has demonstrated that he is not paying careful attention. First, when mastin said he was serious about his vote, dave didn't know what he was talking about. Second, dave said to dodgy "I'd have voted you for your naked vote if you didn't justify it after", but dodgy justified the vote in post 92

before

voting eye in post 108.
-Don't like his post 131 (I explained why in my post 151).
-Don't like how he suggested the possibility that mastin was reaction testing.
-Aside from his criticism of my "I'm liking my vote more now" and his post 131, he hasn't provided any thoughts nor has he explicitly stated any scum or town reads. It just feels like he's coasting.

There's still a good chance that beast is scum, but I also like this better:

Unvote. Vote: davesaz

[Wickedestjr]

copper: Null. Nothing scummy yet. Nothing particularly town telling for me yet either, though.

mastin2: play seems fine so far and seems to resemble her town meta. However, I'm hesitant to town read her right now because I've heard she has a strong scum game and I haven't seen anything that I don't she's capable of as scum. Plus, I read her wrong last time we played together, so I'm treading carefully.

Tean Samargo: it's good that they created a case to justify their vote, but I dislike the target. I also dislike how, in their case, they refer to killapenwin as "the penguins", "the pengling", and "pengdong". At the time of their case it was already clear that killapenwin both had a defensive play style and was frustrated by the suspicions toward him. So it really feels like these demeaning names are meant to incite an emotional reaction from penwin, something that could attract more suspicion towards him. Also haven't seen anything town-telling from them either.


Need more data on: BBT, Heartless, vettrock, Aneninen

[Wickedestjr]

SINCE then, though, there's plenty more that's much stronger. Like, all of it, really. As in,

basically everything dave says, I think, "yep, scum”

. I'm not sure I can really find the words for it. They're not coherent. But dave has done

nothing but scumposting. While, yes, I was originally reaction-testing him, and while, yes, my original reasoning was weak, since then, the read has grown stronger off of much stronger reasoning

. I'm just trying to figure out how to make that come across as more than just gibberish right now.

Ehh… while I agree with your read, I also think you should be careful here if you're town.

That's nothing.

Try 30. (Or was it 40? It was either 30 or 40.)

2014's been the year of the town PM for me. Annoyingly, it's continued into this year, too. A semi-open is a DREAM for scuMastin; I thrive in that environment. (Heck, one of my favorite scum games ever was a semi-open.) Ah, well. I'll make up for it by making 2015 the year of "lynching scum and getting immediately nightkilled for it".

Wow I thought 13 was bad. But 30-40 is near-astronomically bad. I guess random.org just likes putting “Wickedestjr” and “mastin2” at the bottom of random lists.

If you assume the chance of getting scum in any game is 25%, then the chance of a 13 game town streak is;
(0.75)^13 = 2.4%
And the chance of a 35 game town streak is;
(0.75)^35 = 0.004%

It doesn’t seem fair.

[Wickedestjr]

Beast also likely town for that vote flailing he did (terrible logic though).

Can you elaborate on this? In combination with his immediate/subsequent disappearance, I'm really not seeing it as townish.

[Tean Samargo]

Honestly, I don't like BBT so far. He was active pregame, but his posting dropped off the face of the earth the instant the game started. His actual posts have been pretty meaningless too. It looks to me like he's trying to coast by without saying much, which he's able to do so far since people are mostly ignoring him.

[dodgy56]

@Wicked

@Eyestott
why do you think dodge is leaning scum on you for being mister nice guy?

Question feels weak considering dodge voted eyestott. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but what are you hoping to gain through this inquiry?

I want both perspectives on their direct meta.

would it help if i linked you to a game i played with eyestott recently at playdip? i was town and he was scum

[dodgy56]

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

...
"I don't trust you. Why is he scum? I might vote him, though."


...Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, to answer, basically everything. davesaz is throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book.

the fact im considering voting him is completely independent of your read on him.

you say dave is throwing every newbscum tell in the book. do you think he is a newb scum? can someone tell me how experienced dave is?

[dodgy56]

i think wicked is likely town. we seem to be on a similar page with a lot of issues.

i think at least 1 of dave/eyestott/mastin is scum (in order from scummiest to least scummy )

VOTE: dave

[dodgy56]

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

...
"I don't trust you. Why is he scum? I might vote him, though."


...Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, to answer, basically everything. davesaz is throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book.

the fact im considering voting him is completely independent of your read on him.

you say dave is throwing every newbscum tell in the book. do you think he is a newb scum? can someone tell me how experienced dave is?

to clarify, im using your read on dave to try and get a read on you, not to see how it affects my read on dave. if that makes sense?

[Wickedestjr]

can someone tell me how experienced dave is?

Looks like he has seven or eight completed games and five or six ongoing games. Over 1000 game posts, so he's pretty experienced. If you want to check for yourself (or check for another player), click on the player's username and then click on "view their topics". That'll give you all the topics on Mafiascum that they have posted in, ever.

[davesaz]

TBH, my bet is "reaction test". So I'm not all that concerned about it really.

Remember how I said I was 90% serious?

The other 10% was the reaction test. (Okay, so to be fair, it's probably better to say I was 60% serious and 40% reaction-testing, and exaggerating the number for the sake of furthering the reaction test, butstill, you get the idea.)

But I was serious then, and am even MORE serious now. My other reads are fluid. As in, they're massively flowing in my mind and I haven't nailed them down quite yet. (I'll try at some time in the immediate future.) But dave? Dave IS scum. I'm not sure if I'm going to really be able to explain it. Like, I can explain the basic not-very-well-based reasoning for the original read easily enough; it was just so plain compared to the other more interesting confirms that I figured "probably just scum who got it out of the way". The weakest of weak possible reasons, thus one reason why I hold onto said reasoning and not explain it immediately. (Because if people knew how weak it was, I'd lose the reactions.)

SINCE then, though, there's plenty more that's much stronger. Like, all of it, really. As in, basically everything dave says, I think, "yep, scum". I'm not sure I can really find the words for it. They're not coherent. But dave has done nothing but scumposting. While, yes, I was originally reaction-testing him, and while, yes, my original reasoning was weak, since then, the read has grown stronger off of much stronger reasoning. I'm just trying to figure out how to make that come across as more than just gibberish right now.

But he's scum. You can trust me on that.

No, I haven't tossed a single newbscumtell. I'm a brutally honest VT, and you're an idiot.

[Wickedestjr]

No, I haven't tossed a single newbscumtell. I'm a brutally honest VT, and you're an idiot.

Before you go insulting others, you should learn the basic unspoken rules w.r.t. claiming. How can you call someone an idiot in the same sentence that

you

give a horribly-timed claim? I don't think you were even at L-2...

[davesaz]

can someone tell me how experienced dave is?

Looks like he has seven or eight completed games and five or six ongoing games. Over 1000 game posts, so he's pretty experienced. If you want to check for yourself (or check for another player), click on the player's username and then click on "view their topics". That'll give you all the topics on Mafiascum that they have posted in, ever.

Even better yet, follow the links in my sig. And I'm on the wiki too.
I'm guessing around 50 completed games on the other sites, which is pretty hefty considering we were lucky to average two a month in that environment.

[davesaz]

No, I haven't tossed a single newbscumtell. I'm a brutally honest VT, and you're an idiot.

Before you go insulting others, you should learn the basic unspoken rules w.r.t. claiming. How can you call someone an idiot in the same sentence that

you

give a horribly-timed claim? I don't think you were even at L-2...

I don't get to let the angry out often enough, so once in a while I like to blow off steam.

[davesaz]

Honestly, I don't like BBT so far. He was active pregame, but his posting dropped off the face of the earth the instant the game started. His actual posts have been pretty meaningless too. It looks to me like he's trying to coast by without saying much, which he's able to do so far since people are mostly ignoring him.

Have you played with scum BBT before? Any thoughts on what this pattern of play might mean in light of his signature?

[Tean Samargo]

I haven't played with BBT before myself. The other head of the hydra might have, I'm not sure.