Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[davesaz]

I would agree with this. Those overly concerned with maintaining a town look, and their own meta is moderately scummy.

I have observed that being concerned with looking town isn't very alignment indicative, but reading that concern as scummy is somewhat indicative of scum (i.e. scum use it for a "case" more often than town do).

perhaps you may be right. all that means is that townies need to stop being concerned with their appearance. but i still dont really buy this.

From this reply I'm not sure you understood what I meant.

Being lynched is bad for both scum and town. A desire to look town, and concern over being seen as scummy, is common to both alignments. It is human nature to want to survive, even in a game such as this one. As town, I don't use "being concerned over appearance" as a scumtell. It is a horrible predictor for alignment. There are other things to look for which are much more effective.

[dodgy56]

I would agree with this. Those overly concerned with maintaining a town look, and their own meta is moderately scummy.

I have observed that being concerned with looking town isn't very alignment indicative, but reading that concern as scummy is somewhat indicative of scum (i.e. scum use it for a "case" more often than town do).

perhaps you may be right. all that means is that townies need to stop being concerned with their appearance. but i still dont really buy this.

From this reply I'm not sure you understood what I meant.

Being lynched is bad for both scum and town. A desire to look town, and concern over being seen as scummy, is common to both alignments. It is human nature to want to survive, even in a game such as this one. As town, I don't use "being concerned over appearance" as a scumtell. It is a horrible predictor for alignment. There are other things to look for which are much more effective.

no i understood perfectly what you meant. im saying townies shouldnt be worried about it. if they do the right thing and are open/honest and try to engage sincerely then they dont need to try and look town. Scum however dont have the option of engaging sincerely and as they are the ones trying to blend in, they have an interest in appearing town.

TL;DR townies should stop worrying about their image and worry about scum hunting.

[davesaz]

Mastin -- null, need input.

Aneninen -- null, insufficient content

Dodgy -- null->town, curiosity seems genuine, trying to determine alignment in 167

Wickedestjr -- lean town gut

copper's 158 is mixed. The vote is sheep, I like the logic on killapenwin, agree that Vettrock needs to be watched, but don't get calling beast town with so little content. Seems a bit thrown together.

[davesaz]

no i understood perfectly what you meant. im saying townies shouldnt be worried about it. if they do the right thing and are open/honest and try to engage sincerely then they dont need to try and look town. Scum however dont have the option of engaging sincerely and as they are the ones trying to blend in, they have an interest in appearing town.

TL;DR townies should stop worrying about their image and worry about scum hunting.

And if the path to being open / honest

is

to be conscious of image?

[davesaz]

If you really thought this was a reaction test, why would you point that out? I think a reaction test is ruined if the test subjects know it's a reaction test.

Take that logic a little further. The target knows it's a reaction test. That means that their reactions can be ______________________ (fill in the blank)

Now pick you jaw up off the floor and reread please.

[eyestott]

I see we have all just descended into throwing out random votes with no explanation, I was just about to vote on dodgy and with the same reasoning but that damn vettrock beat me to it. Either that or he is playing Jedi mind tricks on me, which would be rather devious of him. I am watching you little green dwarf.

So youre criticizing people for giving a lack of explanation in RVS, then say you were just about to vote dodgy for the same reasoning someone else gave?
VOTE: Killapenwin.

1: @eyestott: You mean me pointing out what everyone is doing and then saying I not going to because someone already posted the thing I was going to say to join in with the random voting?

2: You seem pretty quick to throw a vote on me without even questioning me first, I see that as more scummy than town.

3:I am not sure if people even know what a haiku is and at this stage of the game I don't think anyone is going to have a strong read on Tean's alignment after 2 posts. So no, I do not know if Tean is scum or not but similarly to Eyestott I wouldn't look favourably on Tean's were to continue his vote on me simply for his lack of reasoning.

4: Clearly any attempt at banter I have tried to make has failed miserably so I will just be serious from now on.

1: I didnt understand this. Why should what other people are doing in RVS prevent you from doing things?
2: We were barely out of RVS at that time. My vote was only slightly serious, but having seen your response, I'm happy with it. Why is it scummy, and better yet, if you think I'm scummy, why arent you voting me? I actually find you scummy for just calling me scummy, but doing nothing. Its passive aggressive behaviour, which is pretty scummy.
3: Hilariously
Socio-economic
Hippopotamus
Both of your scumreads (which you havent voted) are on people who have voted you. Additionally, youre passing off Tean's vote as one with a "lack of reasoning". And again with passive aggressiveness, but this time its masking a threat.
4: Where have you made "banter"? Or are you trying to pass off scummy behavior as banter?
"Nah guys, when i said that, i was just joking!"

1. As I said he posted what I was going to throw out as joke vote as that seemed to be what the rest of you were doing at that stage.
2. Your vote on me looked like it was intended to start a bandwagon (it put me in the lead) and you never quizzed me you just decided to put me ahead of everyone else and as it had little reasoning I thought it was scummy.
3. I only get 1 vote and would like to use it wisely so I will put it on who I feel deserves to be voted for. 'Revenge voting' can also look scummy, too.
I would rather put my vote out there with a reason as to why I am voting that way than to not.
When you don't give a reason you deny that person and others the chance to challenge your vote, if we allow this to happen it gives scum a much higher chance of hiding behind poor reasoned votes. It is better for town to have as much info as possible to work on.
4. I tried a little bit with 'jedi mind tricks' post but like I say those posts were poorly received so I stopped.

Okay then.UNVOTE:

[eyestott]

@Dave
If you're not worried about Mastin's vote why do you keep mentioning it and have already decided it was based on nothing/it's a reaction test?

@Eyestott
why do you think dodge is leaning scum on you for being mister nice guy?

Well, I was nice (so nice I apparently made someone uncomfortable) in my scum game at playdip. This is a null tell for me, though.

[Tean Samargo]

@Dav
There's only 4 people in your reads list, where's the rest? It sort of feels like a filler from where I'm sitting.

[davesaz]

TBH I never have reads on every player to begin with. A lot of the unmentioned have posted nothing beyond RVS.

[dodgy56]

no i understood perfectly what you meant. im saying townies shouldnt be worried about it. if they do the right thing and are open/honest and try to engage sincerely then they dont need to try and look town. Scum however dont have the option of engaging sincerely and as they are the ones trying to blend in, they have an interest in appearing town.

TL;DR townies should stop worrying about their image and worry about scum hunting.

And if the path to being open / honest

is

to be conscious of image?

why would that be the path? the idea of looking at your own image is essentially a filter to prevent yourself from looking bad/to make yourself look better. It comes across as forced.

[eyestott]

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

being experienced doesnt mean i should blindly trust him. so far i dont have any idea why she thinks dave is scum.. let alone a full explanation

I'm just saying that technically she can't give any reasons yet.

When she does give her reasons though, they better make damn good sense.

this seems like a bit of a backdown? it seems like you dont want to be seen defending mastin. you go from being certain as to her motive to trying to downplay that certainty. its concerning

I'm not backing down f m anything. If mastin gives good reasons for the post, good. But if her reasons suck, it's where I'll vote.
I wasn't "certain" of her motive.

[dodgy56]

this seems like a bit of a backdown? it seems like you dont want to be seen defending mastin. you go from being certain as to her motive to trying to downplay that certainty. its concerning

I'm not backing down f m anything. If mastin gives good reasons for the post, good. But if her reasons suck, it's where I'll vote.
I wasn't "certain" of her motive.

your early posts seem to suggest that you are certain (whether that was what you meant or not i cant say, im just telling you how it read fmpov). They dont have any sort of quantifying measure in the statements. Can you appreciate why im reading it the way i am?

[davesaz]

eyestott's thing with killapenwin looked a bit questionable to me. It's the type of thing scum can float to see what happens, and either push if it's safe or back off as an early misunderstanding if it turns dangerous. I wasn't sure how the whole thing would lead to a read on killa's alignment.

Not sure how to read his approach to myself and Mastin.

[davesaz]

no i understood perfectly what you meant. im saying townies shouldnt be worried about it. if they do the right thing and are open/honest and try to engage sincerely then they dont need to try and look town. Scum however dont have the option of engaging sincerely and as they are the ones trying to blend in, they have an interest in appearing town.

TL;DR townies should stop worrying about their image and worry about scum hunting.

And if the path to being open / honest

is

to be conscious of image?

why would that be the path? the idea of looking at your own image is essentially a filter to prevent yourself from looking bad/to make yourself look better. It comes across as forced.

But my point is, what if the individual's natural way of thinking is to be conscious of image at all times. It may

look

forced, yet be completely natural.

[Tean Samargo]

There's nothing to go by in your reads list. All of your reads are null, mixed and you seem unsure of yourself. It seems like it's all rushed and poorly made. Odd, seeing that you were one of the more active players in the forum at the moment. What were you doing all this time? Surely you must have a more solid read by now?

I feel like this list is pretty much forced, and you're trying to feign scum hunting.
I think this would be a much more solid shelf for my vote.

Vote: davesaz

My case on Penguin is stated in my previous post against him. Seeing that the vote so far has only managed to provoke him, I feel like a coherent discussion will not be possible at this moment.
Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GnLDJAgrws

[dodgy56]

just for reference, is there a way we can keep track of vote count other than manually doing it ourselves/looking at the mod post each day?

[Tean Samargo]

Nope, its either manually or getting someone else to do it for you. Usually the mod helps out with column B.

Seeing that people need this:
killapenwin (o) -
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - Aneninen
eyestott (o) -
Heartless (1) - davesaz
davesaz (5) - Mastin2, copper223, dodgy56, Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo
copper223 (1) - Heartless
vettrock (o) -
Aneninen (o) -
dodgy56 (1) - vettrock
Wickedestjr (1) - beastcharizard
beastcharizard (o) -
Tean Samargo (1) - killapenwin
mastin2 (1) - BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting: eyestott

L-2 for davesaz

[beastcharizard]

There is that vote count program but I believe only the mod can use it and has to set it up in the Opening Post.

[eyestott]

Heres why I chose this game:
Most people prefer to scumhunt in the conventional way. Some players use meta a lot to scumhunt. Others, including myself, use role-related and setup-related points mainly for scumhunting.
This setup has so much variance, which is what drew me to the game. I am viewing this setup as closer to a logic puzzle than other mafia setups, as a large amount of players hold small pieces of information about the setup.
I am a late game player. Ill still scum hunt in the conventional way, but when i make cases, please place more weight on my role-related arguments than my conventional arguments.

What is your reason/purpose for saying this? For the record, I think we will be in conventional scum hunting phase for at least two game days, depending on the number of Ts.

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus.

She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule)

.

Why are you making this assumption? While you could be right, there is no evidence for your assumption and at least one other reason why mastin wouldn't want to out her reads yet. I don't like this: feels like you're too quick to defend mastin here.

1: So it wouldnt be a surprise when I start switching from conventionally scumhunting during the early game to role-based scumhunting in the late game.
2: I couldnt think of another rule that could apply.

[eyestott]

eyestott;
-Potential buddying of dodgy and mastin.
-His conventional vs. role-related scum hunting reflection post feels like he is excusing himself to not scum hunt much/well now. I don't see a town motive for the post.
-I don't like the penwin mini wagon and he is a part of it.

- Being nice is hardly alignment indicative. I mean, sure, scum do it. But town do it to, especially when theyre legitimately just trying to be nice. My niceness in mafia stems from an aversion to conflict.
- What? I specifically said that Ill still scumhunt early game.
- After Penwins post, ive changed my read on him, but do you not like the mini wagon because you think Penwin is town, or because you think the reasons are bad?

[eyestott]

TBH, my bet is "reaction test". So I'm not all that concerned about it really.

Remember how I said I was 90% serious?

The other 10% was the reaction test. (Okay, so to be fair, it's probably better to say I was 60% serious and 40% reaction-testing, and exaggerating the number for the sake of furthering the reaction test, butstill, you get the idea.)

But I was serious then, and am even MORE serious now. My other reads are fluid. As in, they're massively flowing in my mind and I haven't nailed them down quite yet. (I'll try at some time in the immediate future.) But dave? Dave IS scum. I'm not sure if I'm going to really be able to explain it. Like, I can explain the basic not-very-well-based reasoning for the original read easily enough; it was just so plain compared to the other more interesting confirms that I figured "probably just scum who got it out of the way". The weakest of weak possible reasons, thus one reason why I hold onto said reasoning and not explain it immediately. (Because if people knew how weak it was, I'd lose the reactions.)

SINCE then, though, there's plenty more that's much stronger. Like, all of it, really. As in, basically everything dave says, I think, "yep, scum". I'm not sure I can really find the words for it. They're not coherent. But dave has done nothing but scumposting. While, yes, I was originally reaction-testing him, and while, yes, my original reasoning was weak, since then, the read has grown stronger off of much stronger reasoning. I'm just trying to figure out how to make that come across as more than just gibberish right now.

But he's scum. You can trust me on that.

No, I haven't tossed a single newbscumtell. I'm a brutally honest VT, and you're an idiot.

Why are you claiming already? What pro-town reason would you have for revealing you're a VT?

[eyestott]

this seems like a bit of a backdown? it seems like you dont want to be seen defending mastin. you go from being certain as to her motive to trying to downplay that certainty. its concerning

I'm not backing down f m anything. If mastin gives good reasons for the post, good. But if her reasons suck, it's where I'll vote.
I wasn't "certain" of her motive.

your early posts seem to suggest that you are certain (whether that was what you meant or not i cant say, im just telling you how it read fmpov). They dont have any sort of quantifying measure in the statements. Can you appreciate why im reading it the way i am?

Yes, I can.

[dodgy56]

- After Penwins post, ive changed my read on him, but do you not like the mini wagon because you think Penwin is town, or because you think the reasons are bad?

can you point out what exactly in his post changed your mind? it could easily be argued you are just backing away from it because of the flak you copped. im giving you the benefit of the doubt until i hear what your found persuasive
also now that you have unvoted killa who do you think is acting scummiest?

[davesaz]

There's nothing to go by in your reads list. All of your reads are null, mixed and you seem unsure of yourself. It seems like it's all rushed and poorly made. Odd, seeing that you were one of the more active players in the forum at the moment. What were you doing all this time? Surely you must have a more solid read by now?

That one's relatively easy to answer. I don't make shit up to see if it sticks. Four players (BBT, Heartless, Aneninen, beastcharizard) have said nothing substantial at all. Five players are voting wrongly, but being wrong isn't alignment indicative by itself. Sheeping isn't a reliable indicator either. It's plausible that Mastin really believes her push, and again being wrong isn't really alignment indicative.

I don't know who the scum are, and I don't have any really strong suspicions. This early in day 1, weak reads are all you're going to get from me.

I've said this before. It may be in a completed game, but I'm not sure. This site has a hard time dealing with an honest player. You expect people to toss blind accusations, ignore their feelings and act like they don't care about being voted, attack someone for a mistaken word or two. That's not how I play.

You're welcome to lynch me if you think it's the right thing. I know it would be a mistake for town.

[davesaz]

Why are you claiming already? What pro-town reason would you have for revealing you're a VT?

Partially answered in 172. I don't really have a reason, other than being quite angry at the time.
I have self censored a couple of posts since then.
I strongly considered self voting.