—Mini 1635— Curse of the Werewolves: Game Over

[Pine]

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There's an element of historical votes to it. Crossed out names are people who used to be on that wagon

[FourTrouble]

It has a pretty small effect on my read on him, though, because the fact that everyone begged him for it could easily account for it.

If he can easily replicate his normal meta, why would an intentional departure from that meta mean he's scum?

[FourTrouble]

Pine, why do you suspect Iece?

[Pine]

Lots of little things don't add up. It's half gut

The only really solid thing is his weird and forced reaction to my lolgambiting

[FourTrouble]

What's weird and forced about his reaction?

[Pine]

It's nonspecific. It feels rushed, no genuine, like he's trying to think in circles. Like he's trying to solve the WIFOM of "how seriously do I have to take this to look Town"

[Titus]

Ok just skimmed Andrius's ISO. Why is he wagoned? Who is/was the counter wagon and why?

[All is Who]

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Things that made me choose Andy:

1. His early townread on me seemed a little strong to me (I can follow it, but it seemed stronger than I expected), so he was already kinda on my mind.
2. His motive in asking for my read on PeregrineV indirectly is really unclear, especially in light of an apparent townread on me. Why ask his townread in particular? Why ask it of his townread indirectly?
3a. His take on my post-Pine posts would seem pretty non-default given a town read of me, but makes some sense if it's a "following the crowd"-derived take on the situation.
3b. His take on the same posts would seem to imply that I was town anyway (this one could just be a logic error, but in light of the rest it starts to fit a pattern).

Farside had independent reasons I think, but she echoed point 2. It feels like ABR is kind of sheeping me (e.g., Pine after I appeared to be attacking him rhetorically, then this), which feels kinda unfamiliar, but I guess he's at least pretty non-prejudicial in who he follows me onto.

That's a fairly decent summation of the Andy wagon, even if I don't agree with it.

The other two real ones are Icy due to his reaction to Pine's gambit and ABR due to:

Take note, Iecerint and Nacho are historically some of my closest allies and favorite players, and Pine has quickly reached the same status in the few games I've been with him this year.

Buddying noted.

Votes you can depend on. Consistent posting schedule. Relatable point of view. You're good soldiers.

Buddying still noted.

Gentlemen, let's be reasonable. Voting for me for being complimentary and expressing my approval of you is like feeding your dog when he's begging for food while you're eating. You're not reinforcing the behavior you want to elicit here.

"Don't vote me, because then I'll never be nice to you again." This isn't a reasonable defense. This is an admission that he's playing differently from normal and a threat to get people to stop voting him. This is not a town reaction.

Nacho's become weirder.

Which matters because?

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I was being facetious. Come now, let's vote out the southern gothic abomination.

Oh, it matters because you're going to drop the line of reasoning as soon as anything bad for you comes of it. If he actually thought Nacho being weird as town was relevant to the game, he wouldn't have dropped it so easily. If he actually thought it wasn't as town, why bring it up in the first place. He's scum.

pirate hydra looks somewhat like self-justified town.

Unvote, vote Pine

Hmmm. No reason, no rhyme, and a mediocre at best reason for mollie/tth town, that mitigates their reads. They're not town because they're doing town things or thinking town reasons, note, but just that they're "self-justified" which is just so much nonsense. But good try.

Pine, I'd hate for you to be scum this game.

Because you're voting him and you'd hate to vote scum? Buddying noted again, this time on a player you are actively voting. Tsk Tsk.

You're scum, Pine, aren't you. smh.

Seriously?

@ albert

why are you ignoring the who people?

The signatures are annoying. I don't like them already.

You don't like us, so you ignore us. Not pressure us, not think we're scum. Did it occur to you we may have started our gimmick because it made people less likely to interact with us? (We didn't but it was a little bit helpful last game as scum.)

I'm not a good scum player, you give me too much credit.

Sure you're not. But it's worth noting that your play this game has been less than stellar, so... Maybe you're right. Let's find out.

Unvote

What are you going to do after I flip town? Use your second daycop?

So, it's been a long time since someone got a guilty on me as town, but generally doesn't that mean they're scum fakeclaiming? Why unvote here?

From what I can tell, the main thing to glean from my interaction with Pine I think is that I am probably town if ABR is scum.

Vote: Iecerint

This is terrible.

And Pine, you fail.

I agree with one thing here, and that is that Icy's "I'm town if ABR is scum" statement is dumb. But you're still not voting the person who claimed a guilty on you.

ABR, of all people, following that, especially after WhoHydra's previous vote, is particularly ludicrous.

Haha yes you're right.

Unvote, vote Pine

Maybe because he's scum, and he's just putting his vote anywhere where there might be a not him lynch.

Unvote, vote Andrius

Unvoting the player who is faking a guilty on you in order to hop on the leading wagon with no reasoning. Sure, I see the town motivation oozing out of that post. /sarcasm

Also interested in why there's an Andrius wagon. I'll have to look into that.

There isn't much, besides who he thinks is town. I don't like those reads he's given, personally.

Someone asked why I voted! Damn, better give them an answer. Why did I vote him again? There weren't real reasons? Shit. Why is "His reads are bad" any more egregious than what any other player has done this game, to include myself.

You raise good points. I like this wagon more and more. I miss playing with you Iecerint

PM me if you sign up for another game, k?

And he's started in on the buddying again. God, if you've been anything this game, it's been consistent. I love how the reasons you voted andy came from someone else after you'd already explained that you didn't have any. Could you be any more scummy?

The half-baked attempts at shifting attention away from Andrius and to me are disappointing.

I'll have you know that your OMGUS and accusations are much less baked than me, as well as your premature defense.

All aboard the ABR train, next stop, scum lynch. Choo Choo!

PEDIT:

I expected the OMGUS to come after the case, not before it.

Fresh perspectives on all three would be nice.

[All is Who]

It has a pretty small effect on my read on him, though, because the fact that everyone begged him for it could easily account for it.

If he can easily replicate his normal meta, why would an intentional departure from that meta mean he's scum?

And why does him bowing to pressure and intentionally acting erratic make him town?

You're gonna have to do better than that, Pine. Why is Icy town? His recent posts make a lot of sense to me.

[All is Who]

EBWOP: Why isn't Icy town?

[Pine]

Don't care about recent posts. Being scum is about maintaining an act. Being Town is about noticing when they can't remember their lines

Remember, most scum look Town most of the time. For a veteran like Iecy that's doubly true

[All is Who]

:IGMEO:

Me and who are in agreement that Icy isn't the play today, and I doubt you're gonna convince us.

If we're gonna compromise off of ABR today, it's more likely to be onto 4Teen than anyone else.

[All is Who]

Also, you may have noticed I stopped signing. That is because I ran out of A name scummers I could think off of the top of my head., and I'm not quite ready to start on B.

[Iecerint]

It has a pretty small effect on my read on him, though, because the fact that everyone begged him for it could easily account for it.

If he can easily replicate his normal meta, why would an intentional departure from that meta mean he's scum?

I never made that claim. I was the one who pointed out (to Pine I think) that different doesn't necessarily imply scum-aligned.

[Iecerint]

Ok just skimmed Andrius's ISO. Why is he wagoned? Who is/was the counter wagon and why?

Read my posts and I think farside has a few.

[Iecerint]

Nvm Who did it for you

[VictorDeAngelo]

Finally feeling well enough to play, will try to have a substantial post up later today.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I love it when games stop to wait for me, makes me feel important.

I'm not 100% yet but I think I keep upright enough to get going before this day ends.

BTW why do people feel the need to spoil flavour stuff? It's just annoying. I'm having to click to reveal a spoiler in like every post on page 1 and it's all ending up being irrelevant.

Spoiler:

ABR's early push on Southern Gothic on page 2 is the first thing that feels off. His push has that semi serious tone that scum seem to love.

I don't like Ice's self consciousness in 69.

79 - Ok it's page 4 Nacho, why are your posts still incomprehensible rubbish.

86 - I find this vote over explained, almost trying too hard to go beyond the reasons Pine voted for ABR.

87 - This defense of ABR is worth noting if he's scum. The fact Flames doesn't really appear to be reading anything is somewhat suspicious as well.

100 - ABR still pushing the hydra wagon over nothing and the game is past rvs.

102 - Fairly pointless question towards a real scumread, I'm starting to think ABR is scum.

119 - I feel uneasy about this townread here.

112 - Konowa silently shifting votes here makes me feel uneasy.

135 - Now I really hate this, there's a clear distinction between discussing meta and having trust tells, and I think Konowa is trying to stop a meta discussion here before it bites him in the ass.

155 - Well look at that, another bad naked vote from ABR.

158 - And now he'd hate that the guy he just voted is scum. Yep, this is scum.

175 - I don't like the attack on Peregrine here at all.

All is who is confusing me, I'm lying down before tackling that hydra. ABR, Flames And Konowa all feel scummy, and no one feels particularly townie. I'm probably not going into work tomorrow, so assuming I get a good night's rest I should be able to catch up at home before the weekend with any luck.

[Iecerint]

If you don't like self-consciousness from me, you're gonna have a bad time.

[Iecerint]

I think Who gets easier to read in later posts FWIW.

[farside22]

Why I am scum reading Andy.
There are many post that are just posting to post. I don't see someone trying to figure players out.
That is the first.
The rest is things he has said in the game that do not match, for example.

Pine only wasted our time. Iece's reaction was suspect. There are not enough people here. I am not supposed to be here.

With everything said it makes no sense why Iec's reaction is suspect and not ABR. ABR thought he was lying and then said who would he cop next. Are not both players suspect with all that Pine accomplished and how was it a waste of time?

Next up was this:

This is a terrible reason to keep voting me.

Forgive me, I am not known for this voice - I am attempting to change, difficult as it is.
My vote stays.

And Andy, you're invoking his beetlejuicing. Interesting.

Forgive me, I do not know what you mean. I am unfamiliar with Beetlejuice.
He is a player who has denied us reasoning for his first scum vote (curious) and is basing his lack of activity and explanations on V/LA, which is understandable but does not provide any insight into his alignment. Thus, I await his return and the chance to more accurately discern his motivations.

In my experience, Perv is a strong town player and has good reads, but his thread presence leaves something to be desired as both alignments.

I believe this to be true.

@mollie: I admit I am not pleased with Flames, though I can see town motivation behind his posts. Granted, it is not clear. Does that make sense?

Game is weird. I don't like rvs all the time. Sometimes I'll vote, sometimes I dont. Most time I wait 5 pages and get reads on people.
Feel more like I'm pulling teeth reading people here.

You seem bothered by Fourtrouble staying on the periphery of the discussion, but you don't seem bothered by Flames. Why is that?

Interesting note. I had a connection drawn in my mind earlier regarding ABR, but I forget with whom it was drawn.

The comment about flames in this post has him as a town read but at the end when talking about Mollie's post towards me, he finds it interesting. There is nothing interesting if you are town reading one player. You find it interesting if you think one maybe scum and there is a connection.
Basically it is shallow comments that don't read together as a cohesive thought process.


Next up is the four stuff.

Forgive me, I spoke without charity. I found it annoying in the darkness I allowed myself to fall into. I will strive to let it bother me less.

Mortify the heart.

But to answer your perhaps rhetorical questions:
1) It bothers me because I do not know who, in a hydra, is posting. And because I assume it is done to irritate people.
2) No, because I would know who made the post. Barring difficulties.
3) No.

Again, forgive me, if you may. I spoke without charity and felt without love.

I will give Peregrine time because, while at this moment I cannot remember where, I do remember him as being a decent scummer who should come around.

Iece entered the game as I entered the game, and was not afraid to say he was confused by the flavor (Food). It is not necessarily that explaining things is town-aligned (someone, forgive me that I cannot remember who, correctly stated that helpfulness is not alignment-discerning in and of itself) but I see his play as coming forward from that point as being solidly town.

Ah, welcome FourTrouble.

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I don't like his entrance, or 186, or 190,

or any of his posts

.

That may not be something I can help, sir.

"Underwhelming presence" is not weak or bad reasoning. Certain players have prescence, like meta. Fate, would not be Fate if he were not yelling and, as Nacho said in his GKTAS, leading the town with a messiah-like complex. Does that make sense? It is similar to meta, but different in that it means the actual prescence in a game. Your previous votes were a vote, a refusal to explain said vote, two town-read, and a question. Besides this post, you have provided us two town-reads, and a scum-read with no explanation. That does not offer much prescence. I am glad to see you return, even if it there was more stick than carrot, so to speak.

Regardless, my vote will stay because I find it odd (or perhaps circumstantial) that you return after I vote you and explain this vote (one may put forth an case that this is OMGUS) whereas you refused to provide reasoning for your first vote. I understand that you are V/LA, and await more reads/content to the game. I do find it odd that the first vote/read you explain is mine, only after I voted you. I await being able to discern more of your motivations, sir.

it's like unconsciously expressing that they won't always be town

It is stating that I still read them as town. Reads change, as do people. I have played games where alignments change. I have played games where people change. This is neither, but I will continue to state my reads, even if they do not change.

Because I wanted to see if you thought

it

was scummy before they were scummy. There's no point in pursuing a person if the act is not suspect.

It just came to me to ask it of you, so I complied.

I've read the thread, but have no reads at this point.

This isn't as bad as Mikujin, but highly suspect.

FourTrouble looks like town.

Is

he town, or does he just appear to be so?
Your word choice left it open to doubt. I want to understand you.

Would it be accurate to say that you believe 4Tenors is exhibiting this behavior?

Yes. At least, up to that point.

like abr not picking on all is who the actual hydra abomination seems like him trying to continue not to play to the crowd since his beginning push on you guys didn't really go so well. i think abr's strength as scum is playing to the crowd around him: he generally knows the right amount of aggressiveness people are gonna like, he knows the types of angles people are willing to push, etc. i see him playing to the crowd here whereas konowa just seems like he's playing emotionally

This actually makes a lot of sense.

mollie, what do you think of the meta argument regarding ABR and his conciliar nature?

Still want your opinion.


FRATRES
southern gothic
all is who
farside
iece
nacho
flames
pine

ADVERSARII
peregrinev
ABR
fourtrouble

???
VictorDeAngelo

Will need to re-evaluate Konowa later.

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Any clue why he is voting four?
I'll give you a clue, it was based on my view of four. Since then four has come in and engaged, but Andy leaves his vote there because.....????
The dude showed up after saying he was away for sometime and explained why he couldn't post more.
How much sense does it make.
Also I don't like Andy asking Iec about Peregrine. It reads as looking for approval from someone else. If you have a scum read, you vote them. Who gives a fuck if others agree right away.

[farside22]

Sorry for the mess. Post preview is not my friend. The first post was by andy.

[Iecerint]

If [AndyTown], the way that he asked me about Peregrine suggested to me that he thought I might be scum with Peregrine and was trying to like "catch" me in a contradiction with respect to PereV. Like, maybe he thought I would say "yes, reading and not knowing the scum is scummy" and then he would say "aha so you must think PereV is scummy!" and evaluate my reaction.

But, similar to your comments about there being some gaps in the thought process in other areas, it's not clear why he would think I was scum leading up to that really.

I guess this logictrain could potentially move into being suspicious of me post-Pine, if I have the chronology right. So that's something.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm not following, farside. Executive summary?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Iecerint link me to your most recent scum game.