Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Wickedestjr]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

Normally I would agree with you here and I’ll admit his reaction made me momentarily reconsider. But I get the impression that davesaz is experienced and savvy enough to realize that his claim and self vote thought are bad things to say as mafia. And I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen an experienced townie claim prematurely OR consider self voting, let alone both. Maybe I’ve never seen it happen. He should know that both actions are big “NO NOs” and I’m not buying the genuine town frustration theory. We had been voting him for what, a few hours?

i think wicked is likely town.

At this point, even if he's scum he's still town because dammit, he's just so damn town in his recent posting. (Mind you, I've always read him as scum when he's town so me having a townread is making me paranoid that this time he's actually scum. But screw paranoia, I'm sticking to that townread.)

Interesting. I'm curious, do you see differences in the way I am playing (that make you town read me

this

time)? Or has your perception of my meta simply changed? I’ll admit I’m glad that you town read me but it also makes me a little bit paranoid, because you usually don’t.

I don't get the secrecy "close-to-chest" thing at this point of the game.

At this point all reads are pretty speculative. Someone slipping and you are waiting form them to confirm it with some other action? About the only reason I can say for holding things back at this point in the game.

This is a weird thing for you to say given your play up to now.

@eyestott
I find your vote on dav as rather opportunistic. I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly. Right now it feels as if you are sheeping the biggest bandwagon.

Now this is a weird thing for

you

to say! Especially considering you cast the vote for davesaz immediately preceding eyestott’s vote (so you weren’t much faster to hop aboard). It also seems convenient how you start to cast doubt on the wagon, ‘coincidentally’, just after it starts to lose momentum.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright, all caught up. Going to sleep now, I'll try to post again in the morning (I'm sure there will be another 15-20 posts by then), but if I can't, then I might not get the chance to post tomorrow at all.

[copper223]

@Wicked
How confident are you about Dave being scum? It's true the early claims happened in Rome.

[eyestott]

Sorry, I thought I would have more time. I got back later than expected, and its now 11:22.
However, why is my dave vote a sheep? I provided new reasons, not just copying others.

[copper223]

I like the last two posts by Vettrock btw so Dave latching onto that particular read is not endearing him to me.

[vettrock]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

Normally I would agree with you here and I’ll admit his reaction made me momentarily reconsider. But I get the impression that davesaz is experienced and savvy enough to realize that his claim and self vote thought are bad things to say as mafia. And I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen an experienced townie claim prematurely OR consider self voting, let alone both. Maybe I’ve never seen it happen. He should know that both actions are big “NO NOs” and I’m not buying the genuine town frustration theory. We had been voting him for what, a few hours?

I agree that self-voting and early claiming are anti-town, but what would be the motivation for doing it as scum? If town, I see him claiming VT as helping scum as it eliminates one person from the power role "pool". If scum, what does he gain? As for self-voting, when you are scum, to self-vote/hammer and shut down the conversation is about the only reason to do so. Threatening to self-vote to me makes you sound like a cry baby rather than making you scummy. How does scum benefit from the whiney, "I'm going to self-vote" line. One could make the argument that if we are going to lynch someone, it better to lynch someone who isn't helping town, than someone who is, but that is the only justification for a vote I can see from those two things at this point.

I don't get the secrecy "close-to-chest" thing at this point of the game.

At this point all reads are pretty speculative. Someone slipping and you are waiting form them to confirm it with some other action? About the only reason I can say for holding things back at this point in the game.

This is a weird thing for you to say given your play up to now.

Understandable. Mastin did say the reason I stated was her reason. I will say that I'm not holding back any reads at this point, I'm just still forming them, and I like to base them off of more information. I'm much more uncertain than I am secretive at this point.

[copper223]

So basically my early scumread on Vettrock was because he seemed very catious in his approach when posting, which could hint at scum carefully crafting their posts, now he is saying he is in general slow to deliberate D1 and with all the meta that can be done, it checks out to me from newbie 1502 but once again if someone has direct meta?, I don't see scum picking up on my read and telling me it's playstile related because the cure would be worse than the disease, someone would just say he is lying about his meta, so I now think Vettrock is town, which is further reason to doubt Dave.

@Vettrock
He may do it (early claim), as an experienced scum player, as a fake dumbtell that he is a frustrated vanilla townie that has lost motivation and doesn't care about the game anymore.

[Aneninen]

BBT prod dodges in 221 and reappears a couple of hours later to vote for Dodgy. (I also think that he misrepresented Dodgy there.) I think it's something I don't like at all.

Killapenguin's 222 gave me town vibes, even if I didn't agree with everything.

Tean, 231 – so, do you think Eyestott's vote for Davesaz was opporunistic? That's just lol! What would you call

your

Davesaz-vote?

Jackal, we all hope that you're okay!

I can’t speak for mastin, but I know that when

I

reaction test, I am hoping to get reactions from as many people as I can - not just the person that my reaction test targets/regards. Even if mastin was focusing on just you, I think her reaction test had potential to provoke anyone. TL;DR - I don’t think you were the only test subject.

Well, shouldn't we let Mastin talk about his own reaction test?
Because, I don't see where talking about reaction tests really goes. Unless we want to be paranoid and think that every single post is a reaction test. Who likes washing the dishes? ^_^
Also, who's scum besides Davesaz according to your reads?

once again if someone has direct meta?

I met Vettrock in my very first Newbie. His gameplay was even slower than this one.

[copper223]

@Aneninen
So what's your read on Vettrock?

[davesaz]

@vettrock:

You've commented on the "looking town" conversation, but I don't see any comment on the wagon. Why so quiet?

Mostly because I'm undecided about the wagon. I need to do some more review/reads. I generally have a hard time with D1 as there isn't as much real information to base anything off of.

Given this position, what do you make of Tean Samargo's accusation that I don't have reads?

[davesaz]

I like the last two posts by Vettrock btw so Dave latching onto that particular read is not endearing him to me.

Which read are you saying I'm latching onto?

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

@Vettrock
He may do it (early claim), as an experienced scum player, as a fake dumbtell that he is a frustrated vanilla townie that has lost motivation and doesn't care about the game anymore.

Hmm, you've floated both town and scum motivations for the same action. Trying to see which one gets more support, so you can blend in with town a little better?

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked
How confident are you about Dave being scum? It's true the early claims happened in Rome.

72% sure

I agree that self-voting and early claiming are anti-town, but what would be the motivation for doing it as scum?

1:

If town, I see him claiming VT as helping scum as it eliminates one person from the power role "pool".

2:

If scum, what does he gain? As for self-voting, when you are scum, to self-vote/hammer and shut down the conversation is about the only reason to do so. Threatening to self-vote to me makes you sound like a cry baby rather than making you scummy. How does scum benefit from the whiney, "I'm going to self-vote" line. One could make the argument that if we are going to lynch someone, it better to lynch someone who isn't helping town, than someone who is, but that is the only justification for a vote I can see from those two things at this point.

1: That’s a reason why he wouldn’t claim prematurely as town.
2: Copper explained it in 256 pretty well.

Understandable. Mastin did say the reason I stated was her reason. I will say that I'm not holding back any reads at this point, I'm just still forming them, and I like to base them off of more information. I'm much more uncertain than I am secretive at this point.

Okay.

I can’t speak for mastin, but I know that when

I

reaction test, I am hoping to get reactions from as many people as I can - not just the person that my reaction test targets/regards. Even if mastin was focusing on just you, I think her reaction test had potential to provoke anyone. TL;DR - I don’t think you were the only test subject.

Well, shouldn't we let Mastin talk about his own reaction test?
Because, I don't see where talking about reaction tests really goes. Unless we want to be paranoid and think that every single post is a reaction test. Who likes washing the dishes? ^_^

Like I said, even if mastin was only focusing on dave, her reaction test had potential to provoke anyone. Also, I’m not the one assuming mastin’s motive. I’m simply presenting another possibility to dave.

Also, who's scum besides Davesaz according to your reads?

I am suspicious of dave, eye, beast, and Tean.

[Wickedestjr]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

@Vettrock
He may do it (early claim), as an experienced scum player, as a fake dumbtell that he is a frustrated vanilla townie that has lost motivation and doesn't care about the game anymore.

Hmm, you've floated both town and scum motivations for the same action. Trying to see which one gets more support, so you can blend in with town a little better?

Misrep.

I

presented the 256 theory.

[copper223]

@Dave
The read on Vettrock.

Townies claiming VT prematurely has happened to me in Rome twice now, what Wicked said about it being more of a newbie thing and about not buying your frustration in particular reads true, especially for a guy being a civ nerd hence a strategical thinker I can see trying to fake it as a ploy being a possiblity.

VOTE: Dave

L-2

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

@Vettrock
He may do it (early claim), as an experienced scum player, as a fake dumbtell that he is a frustrated vanilla townie that has lost motivation and doesn't care about the game anymore.

Hmm, you've floated both town and scum motivations for the same action. Trying to see which one gets more support, so you can blend in with town a little better?

Misrep.

I

presented the 256 theory.

I don't see how that's relevant. Whether copper is the 1st or 2nd, he's still arguing both sides to see which sticks.

[davesaz]

@Dave
The read on Vettrock.

Townies claiming VT prematurely has happened to me in Rome twice now, what Wicked said about it being more of a newbie thing and about not buying your frustration in particular reads true, especially for a guy being a civ nerd hence a strategical thinker I can see trying to fake it as a ploy being a possiblity.

False dichotomy. I don't agree with the theory that it's worse to claim than it is to be mislynched. There are some situations where a claim as town is better strategically.

[copper223]

I don't see how that's relevant. Whether copper is the 1st or 2nd, he's still

arguing both sides to see which sticks.

Strawman as I'm not arguing for one or the other, I was presenting the first because that was my initial impression and accepted the second as possible after Wicked gave me his take and I checked them out. You are also attributing motives to my behavior (to see which sticks) based on what exactly?

False dichotomy. I don't agree with the theory that it's worse to claim than it is to be mislynched. There are some situations where a claim as town is better strategically.

It would be if I presented the alternatives as: either he claimed out of frustration or he faked it and is scum, but nowhere in my posts do I say that. What I say is I can see it in your range of plays given what I know about your background that you may fake it to look town, once again you are misleading about what actually was said and basing your reply on the misrep.

Not only that but you seem to be arguing here that you did it because it's strategically sound as town to do (giving as alternative a possible mislynch that hasn't happened yet, which I find very debatable as claiming early doesn't seem to be helping you if you are town) so you're also implying your frustration was calculated. => get him boys.

[davesaz]

I am posting the truth and nothing but the truth.

[davesaz]

Like I said, people here have trouble with honesty.

[davesaz]

As for the accusations I'm posting, they are my opinion and therefore can be incorrect but can't be untrue.

[copper223]

Since I can't place you on a chair with a lie detector as that would be game breaking everything you just said is meaningless.

[Heartless]

Someone slipping and you are waiting form them to confirm it with some other action?

Basically?

Yes.

But I can't say another word without compromising the read.

lolmastin you suck at being coy. i know you mean me b/c of the glacially slow start.

unfortunately neither tth or i have enough uninterrupted time to be able to do anything meaningful.

[beastcharizard]

unfortunately neither tth or i have enough uninterrupted time to be able to do anything meaningful.

Both of your lives are meaningful therefor everything you do is meaningful. Hang in there!

[Wickedestjr]

Am I the only one that thinks beast might be scum?