—Mini 1635— Curse of the Werewolves: Game Over

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

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Southern Gothic, Southern Belles, you knew I was addressing you.

Why obsess over the minutiae of posts? I showed concern for this obsession earlier.

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

Tell me, mongrel, do you believe your 457 is a quality reason to vote someone?

What would your response be if another player made such a lazy attempt at logical reasoning?

[Nachomamma8]

Southern Gothic, Southern Belles, you knew I was addressing you.

Why obsess over the minutiae of posts? I showed concern for this obsession earlier.

Why do you think this obsession is alignment indicative, Gilgy?

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

Only scum would concern themselves with such petty nitpicking.

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

Furthermore, I will show mercy on you for addressing me as "Gilgy", and assume it is merely an attempt at endearment. It amuses me that you assume that you and I are on the same level and that it is proper to address me so.

Your courage is admirable, Nacho.

[Southern Gothic]

Southern Gothic, Southern Belles, you knew I was addressing you.

Why obsess over the minutiae of posts? I showed concern for this obsession earlier.

getting my hydra wrong is not "obsession over minutiae". I am not interested in playing with some1 who has an axe to grind and will take it out on my hydra when i srsly doubt my hydra partner deserves it. I already dealt with that once and I am not doing so again.

[FourTrouble]

Southern, why are you voting for me?

[Nachomamma8]

Only scum would concern themselves with such petty nitpicking.

I figured that you would not be someone who needed to be encouraged to look deep inside himself in order to gain a better sense of perspective, my prince, but I feel a lot of the angles of yours that I've read have been pretty nitpicky, even this one! People asking to be calling the correct names is not something I've ever cared about, but it's pretty common across the board.

Also, mollie is someone who is often concerned with small details:

~ Mollie's Case(s)~

okay let me preface this by saying I am extremely uncomfortable with outing ansuz's meta but I will cos I want you guys to see what I see.

this was nacho's first post:

MY MOTHERFUCKING AVATAR IS OFF THE CHAIN

it looks like a poor imitation of thorella tbh

I'm not afraid to throw the game by tunneling the hell out of you for no apparent reason.
I think scum Tammy is shaking in her scum boots right now and Formerfish is like "fuck, I didn't sign up for defending chucklefuck partners".

tammy and former had only made 1 confirm post at this point but nacho has decided that they are scum. okay. formerathena makes a big long post and calls ansuz town and then ansuz gets sticky with the original lulz scumread, looking for reasons to paint the post as scummy.

this is the biggest mistake that scum make on this site. trying to justify an rvs suspicion or vote so that they do not have to move around too much. this is scum holding back but trying to look busy while watching to see where town herd mentality will go.

<-------- huge huge scumtell.

and then oh hai look a wagon is starting to form on bazinga and nacho goes, "this in no way reflects what I truly think" and then he votes me after about 10 exchanges with rancid where he defended me. but here is the thing;

he leaves the vote there and disappears knowing that there was a possibility that I would be quicklynched

. I meltdown, we tussle a bit he then moves it and then proceeds to go after tammy. tammy's wagon picks up steam under the direction of pfr and ansuz and then tammy meltsdown. they then decide to unvote tammy but not call her town and say they have hydra dissonance.

town nacho does not start wagons on tammy and mollie unless he is absolutely sure we are scum (note he has not called her town) and he definitely tends to those wagons in case he is wrong (he never is as town).

<--- he did not do this.

there are a million other things but the biggest 1 is that I have played over 60 games with nacho and only mislynched him once

and have spotted him as scum every time

. most of the time it did not lead to his lynch but the read was there.

I can read nacho.

<----- plz plz plz trust me on this.

re: pirate speak

how many times have you been scum? 10? 20? imagaine have over 50 scum games. you get bored. 1 of the things you start to do is to come up with mini-games like, find all of the specials on d1, give each other 3 improbable words that have nothing to do with each other and fit them in 1 post - little games like that. so you think of ways to make it fun! and trolling is certainly 1 of them.

now. daytalk. I have noticed that the majority of the players do not know how to pick up on when scum have daychat. in daychat you become familiar with each other and you are excited especially if you like your scummates and sometimes that talk carries over into the game thread. it carried over with ap and I in legends a little bit and it did with majiffy and I in reign of fire. the association between ansuz and rancid is how overly familiar they are with each other. <----- I have played them both in games they are usually not that friendly. so right there is an indication that there is likely a conversation going on someplace other than the game thread.

so i am thinking that the scumteam are feeling pretty confident about each other are super excited and decided to do this whole pirate theme I mean muffina changed his avvie and everything and talk like pirates. so they are having fun, they made a bet and things are going their way, they banter and

no1 suspects a thing.

except something doesn't seem right. the agreement to pirate speak defo took place somewhere other than in the game thread, their original use of it was way too natural and

I cannot emphasize enough the convo looks like it started somewhere else.

I in my vanity thought nacho pmed some people in sign-ups in order to troll me cos we are always trolling each other. the site I come from trolling is a highly prized skill, it is a way to ruthlessly cut down the people you don't like or it can be used as a way to show affection. <---- this may seem bizarre to you but at tr things are rarely what they seem. so, then I noticed that of all people who should have picked up on the pirate speak (bro) was not doing it. that bump against the tide me realise that not every1 was in on the troll, just a few. there was definitely a distinction between those who were in on it and those weren't. so I went and checked and there are 3 players who are doing it -----> 3. since ansuz was my top suspect I pieced it together and started to draw the parallels between what they were saying. go check for yourself if you don't believe me.

go and look at their pushes, look at their votes and you will see the connectivity there. take everything you know about scumhunting and step back and look at it globally and you will spot the team. what you are seeing with the pirate speak is an informed minority (pirates) vs. an uninformed majority (amazons and the rest of town).

now ask, why would scum tie themselves up like that it is retarded. there is a very simple answer to that

they did not expect to get caught

. most town do not pick up on little things like that. and I almost missed it myself. so that should tell you they had a very reasonable expectation of not getting caught. I mean I am the only who picked up on it.

so muffina and have a kerfuffle and I realise that with our discussion he is not trying to determine my alignment. then he got all pissy and I decided to take a step back and drink some koolaid and look at things from another angle mebbe I am just seeing things. so I do!

what gave muffina away was his response to my post; it was weird. instead of immediately addressing me he instead goes after clubhouse whom I was soft suspecting. when he addresses me he seems genuinely puzzled but also relieved. <---- I look for players responses after I give out reads. desp then unvotes tammy and I am thinking no fucking way would nacho go after tammy that hard if he was not sure. tammy can back me up on this. and that is when I knew; I was right the first time. so I puked up the koolaid and began a campaign to bring those cheeky scumfucks down.

where ap misstepped is as soon as I came roaring back to life mauffina backed down and then ap steps and then goes after sg. sg is even more obvtown than I am and I know for a fact that town ap would have seen that. he was trying to shift the direction of the flow.

So what you are telling me, is that you really want to be policy lynched today.

VOTE: bazinga

Yaaar! The damn bird should put the Cardassian in lead!

CAUGHT SCUM IS CAUGHT SCUM!!

SCUM ARE NOT GOING TO HELP US BY BUSSING THEIR TEAMMATES

THIS IS SOMETHING TOWN WILL HAVE TO DO ON THEIR OWN.

READ THE ABOVE POSTS

BURN IT INTO YOUR MIND

THESE ARE ANSUZ'S SCUMMATES

^ this post. look at those 2 posts that I quoted.

ap is not going to try to pl me and I am pretty sure at this point rancid knows I am not scum. those 2 posts are scumclaims.

they are not a part of the uninformed majority.

to me it does not get any clearer than this. if all of the players had not played the way that they did there would be no way any1 could piece this together. and this is what I meant by timing; ap going after sg in the way that he did looked desperate. I think he thought that since I had said I was ignoring her I would not care.

<--- this is why I don't always say what I really think of a player or share meta cos if I had shared what I really thought of sg ap would not have touched her with a 10 foot pole.

sg has been my strongest townread from the get go and I have waiting for scum to jump on her. and big bird did.

I know I am right cos I see how the scumteam are responding; they have sort of given up. and no big bird openly talking about him being scum and me catching him is not playing against his wc, ap is playing the too scummy to be scum and "scum would never do that" card cos town usually falls for it every single time. yo know the saying on this site is "every time some1 says scum would never do that a scummer receives a scummy".

I hope this helps. I am not normally this disclosive cos it tells scum how I scumhunt and they can refine their meta and shape their play around mine. <--- this has happened to me a lot on the other sites that I play on.

I know it looks too good to be true, trust me I know! but I am used to doing it is just only the second or third time I have done it on this site. but if nacho was not scum he would be telling you that he has seen me do this before.

scumteam is ansuz, pfr and rancid.

toss out everything you think you know about the gamestate and suspend disbelief and trust me on this. it is best if you do your own scum hunting to see for yourself, just don't get sucked into their web of lies and deceit.

dare to believe. dare to be fierce and kick scum's ass so we can brag about how we just pwned the shit out of some of the best players on the site and I do mean "we". I could never have here by myself you guys have helped so so much by being very town and fucking with scum on your own!

so lets win this shall we?

...so if you're trying to sell a case on her seeing things that you aren't, it's a case you're selling to the wrong crowd.

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

Southern Gothic, Southern Belles, you knew I was addressing you.

Why obsess over the minutiae of posts? I showed concern for this obsession earlier.

getting my hydra wrong is not "obsession over minutiae". I am not interested in playing with some1 who has an axe to grind and will take it out on my hydra when i srsly doubt my hydra partner deserves it. I already dealt with that once and I am not doing so again.

Tch.

I do not have an "axe to grind" with you, mollie.

I have many other treasures to grind as well.

You fail to see that I am voting for you for entirely different reasons than I am, and you are taking this as a personal attack. I can assure you it is not. Your slot has lingered on specifics previously, in 204 and 207. The fact that you did not answer my question but commented on my poor memory elicited me to make a playful jab at you. That is all.

Now then. I would like you to answer 601 and 606, lest you incur my wrath.

---

my prince

You test your luck, mongrel. Quit your insolence or you shall pay dearly.

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

I misspoke just now. I made the jab before you ignored my question - I meant to refer to my suspicions of you and vote on you. You've shown to take concern to those voting you before (123) and I meant to reference that, but my faulty memory interfered. That said, you did not answer my question but continued to presume I had an "axe to grind". I apologize, merely for the miscommunication.

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

I feel a lot of the angles of yours that I've read have been pretty nitpicky, even this one!

Elaborate.

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you think my 270 was useless? Did you click the spoiler?

[PeregrineV]

Victor, huh?

I don't know....

Let's see if he adds anything worthwhile to the conversation over the weekend. I'll be here technically, but probably Monday.

@Gilgamesh King Of Heroes

- Your final catch-up seems to be missing thoughts on some thread activity that would usually elicit an opinion of some form. Do you have anything else you want to discuss about the first 24 pages?

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

I think Mollie looks fairly town from her exchange with Konowa starting in #123. It shows an emotional investment in scumhunting that she has a a lot of trouble mimicking in scum (in particular reading that asylum game in order to see what Konowa's talking about wrt farside's abrasiveness). I think that TTH looks fairly town in #211, which is also hilariously enough an interaction with Konowa. I additionally like the emotional investment there even if I'm not sure it's alignment indicative or not, but the stronger townvibes come from her picking apart Konowa's argument to the extent that she did and obviously making more of an attempt to understand where he's coming from as opposed to ram through a case on him, and I especially like that she's doing this after mollie already started the push: it's like mollie picked up on something, TTH followed up: if the hydra was scum and both players were attacking a single player like that, I would expect the effort to look a lot more like attempting to strongarm a mislynch.

I think mollie's read on Andrius is good although I don't think I feel town-him as strongly as mollie does.
Re: mollie's Konowa problems: I feel like farside is not the most abrasive of players, but I don't feel his annoyance with her is illegitimate, experiences being relative and all that. I don't really see a scum motivation for being excessively offended by her and none of his posting made it seem like he was faking it: his linking of the game and telling everyone to read it in particular was very genuine.
Re: TTH's Konowa problems: I think avoiding major points of conversation is scummy, or at the very least, anti-town, and thus don't really have a problem with Konowa going after things like that. I agree that his argument seems flawed thanks to him making what looks like an emotional push, but I don't think that being aware of a bias means that you're not still going to fall into it, just that you're less likely to fall into it, especially since the bias was probably newly renewed thanks to that recently completed game and fresh wounds make everything seem worse.
Re: Flames: I agree that the way he's approaching things isn't likely to be very productive, but I'm not sure that's alignment indicative. Coming into this game, I didn't really expect any deep analysis from that slot especially early game, and thought his early game questioning was him trying to get a bearing on game state. Don't really have a strong read on the slot though.

I fail to see how 123 shows an "emotional investment in scumhunting". Even when she delves into a meta-iso in 159 and makes a one-off comment about the iso. It shows she put in slight effort, finding a comment 50 posts down, but that's about it. Effort is not a towntell and I fail to see how that can't be faked.

TTH's 'case' in 211 is difficult to follow, but I'll attempt to parse it.

The first point is TTH trying to attack Konowa from farside's POV. She's not trying to understand Konowa at all. The second point is TTH saying "you have biases and so you interpreted this post wrong". Which is not a strong point? Nor does it again try to understand where Konowa is coming from, it's merely another defense of farside - along with 123, 145, 149, 173, 211 and others. It's all a complicated method of defending farside and discrediting Konowa based off of presumed "bias".

Considering the fact that you can relate to some of Konowa's points, one would think you would pick up on Southern's attacks and question the slot further. Instead, you call Southern Hospitality town and essentially state "Still, I can see where Konowa is coming from." None of your points hold water or seem to hold up to any logical scrutiny.

Especially when you state that it doesn't look like strong-arming a mislynch - when mollie proceeds to ask Konowa to elaborate in 123, he engages with reasons in 129, she engages with him and then locks a vote with 149 focusing on a minute detail and an artificial-sounding reason (ABR) and then TTH comes in later in 211 to further justify the Konowa vote with flimsy reasoning. That looks like forcing a mislynch to me.

This is why I thought your 270 was useless. Mongrel.

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

@Gilgamesh King Of Heroes

- Your final catch-up seems to be missing thoughts on some thread activity that would usually elicit an opinion of some form. Do you have anything else you want to discuss about the first 24 pages?

I already explained that I was bored by what you called "activity". Nothing of note caught my eye.

If there is anything specific you wish me to answer, you need only inquire. I am more than happy to dedicate a portion of time to the first person to formally address me in this game.

[PeregrineV]

@Gilgamesh King Of Heroes

- Your final catch-up seems to be missing thoughts on some thread activity that would usually elicit an opinion of some form. Do you have anything else you want to discuss about the first 24 pages?

I already explained that I was bored by what you called "activity". Nothing of note caught my eye.

If there is anything specific you wish me to answer, you need only inquire. I am more than happy to dedicate a portion of time to the first person to formally address me in this game.

I was interested in the short burst of posts containing Pine's claim and the reactions to it. Would like your thoughts on that.

Would like thoughts on Andrius questioning of Iec about a player with few to no reads this late in the game. Thoughts on that.

Opinion on Who is All, based on their posts.
Thanks in advance.

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

I was interested in the short burst of posts containing Pine's claim and the reactions to it. Would like your thoughts on that.

Pine's claim does not concern me - and of course, the claim was false. I find Iec looking better after that slew of mindless blathering, and All Is Who's vote in 321 looks worse as a result. Pine and ABR jumping on Iec is... odd, as I am currently townreading all of them.

As for why I find Iec more town - it comes across as "panicked" town (for lack of a better word) trying to confirm details. It does not feel like something scum could fake.

Opinion on Who is All, based on their posts.

All is Who's 416 is abysmal. It doesn't feel natural. The lack of feeling is what I would expect from a mongrel; it's a shame, I had high hopes from your earlier performance.

Elaboration - the post reeks of confirmation bias and petty jabs. Their follow-ups are cocky and arrogant where they have no right to be.

The only thing that could give my pause is their "I don't care" attitude towards mis-signing their posts, but I suppose that's a nulltell, really.

Would like thoughts on Andrius questioning of Iec about a player with few to no reads this late in the game. Thoughts on that.

315 and on? Hmm... one moment.

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

It looks like Andrius attempting to get a better handle on Iec, perhaps due to uncertainty of Iec's alignment after his posts concerning Pine's claim? Seems genuine.

Iec's response seems like an honest, thought-out answer and the follow-up question back at Andrius seems like town curiosity.

[Gilgamesh King Of Heroes]

Iec, Titus-Konowa, ABR, and Andrius still seem town to me.

Pine's comment about "scum try to put on an act, town needs to notice when they forget their lines" resonated with me*. His fakeclaim makes me want to lean town, but I'll leave him as a person of interest as that's the only opinion I have on the slot. In addition, with the townread on Iec I don't think ABR/All is Who/Pine are all town. After some deliberation and re-evaluating due to your question prompt, I am willing to leave AiW as a person of interest as I can concede that the cocky conf-bias approach

could

come from town. Potentially.

farside is a person of interest as Southern Comfort has linked themselves to the slot highly, with farside linking themselves back. I am too lazy to fetch posts from farside, I pointed out Hot Gothic's defenses previously.

*This comment stuck out because it definitely feels like SG has been doing this in this game.

Nacho... I want to read him as town, yet his argument in 270 still rubs me the wrong way after I looked back at it. I'm not sure if I buy a farside/SG/Nacho scumteam though. That much is unlikely.

I have yet to completely sort out Peregrine, Victor and 4Trouble.

Peregrine, what is your motive for asking me the questions that you did? I'm quite curious.

[Nachomamma8]

Andrius:

I get a good sense of town-Andrius from his posting, in part because his last performance as scum lacked all of the natural drive and passion that this game has. And, I know I'm biased to read him as town because this is probably the one chance I will get to play with him again and it would be a dark disappointment if he just happened to be scum, but that fear aside, still reading him as town.

I lightly townread him for his townread on Iecerint: although my townread on Iecerint stems from different reasons (most of them I can't explain now but will attempting to do so as I continue to read), I feel Iecerint's early take on the game was pretty town and Andrius picking up on that and pushing that is more likely to come from a town mindset than not.

The meat of my townread on Andrius, however, comes from three events:

1) Reaction to Pine's Fake Day Cop Claim:

First of all, if ABR is scum (seems a strong choice at the moment), shutting down a fake guilty on your scumbuddy immediately is a fairly risky move if the claim is real and I don't think Andy is confident enough of a scum player in order to step up and defend a scumbuddy in that matter. Second of all, the way that he approached it seemed a pretty natural way to sort out the situation as opposed to scum deciding how to react to the situation (and I don't think this is something they pre-coordinated in the scum QT): his initial reaction was to call the claim "highly improbable", then did some more reading into it and became confident when he noticed Pine's "let's make this interesting" tone. In these sorts of situations, I think that the conservative scum approach is to step back and wait and see how the general town reacts to it (does town fall for it and create an town on town horrorfest/does town fall for it and wagon scum on bullshit?) regardless of partner's alignment, and Andy, if anything, is a conservative scum player. This point is strongest thanks to my knowledge of Andrius's meta: if you are not the type of player who likes meta, read on.

2) His interaction with farside:
I thought that his interaction with farside does well to demonstrate him trying to sort out things as well as a frustration when he's not understood. In particular, clarification offered in #511 was good simply because of how genuine it comes across: I don't think it'd be possible to break down and clarify "trying to figure things out" more than Andy did at that point. His explanation of his response to the Pine claim and how that affected his Iecerint read makes sense as well, considering switching that read as scum would be a risky move (and a weird one, lots of people had already engaged him on the Iecerint read and turning on a townread out of the blue alienates you no reason), but switching that read as town makes a lot of sense thanks to his own reaction to the fakeclaim.

3) Opposing the Victor Lynch
I find the Victor lynch lazy as hell. Yes, he's been useless, but lynching him when we've already had discussion of several good scum suspects that haven't towned up whatsoever is lazy and is scum taking the path for least resistance. Andrius expressing dissent with this option is 1) really really good if Victor is town because who would ignore a mislynch that easy? And 2) Good even if Victor is scum because at the time he defended him, it looked like lynch was going through and he would be burning a lot of towncred to defend dead weight, which is another unlikely move.

Re: Iecerint: I feel your earlier townread on Iecerint is better than your recent scumread on him. I feel Iec, while a good player certainly, has a tendency to spend too much time focusing on possibilities than he does actually taking action and pushing (his self-evaluation of "listing all of the possibilities and wallowing in inaction" is a pretty spot-on evaluation of his game's weakness). I don't feel that his response to Pine was scummy as a result: maybe it would be scummy for less analytical players or players more prone to knee-jerk reactions like you or I, but not really for him. I also disagree that chaining together mislynches in the case of a fake guilty is scummy: if town decide to be dumb for no reason and push through a fakeclaim guilty on an innocent, as you noted, there's no scum action needed to get those two mislynches, thus giving scum no motive to chain them together. You could argue maybe he was just trying to guarantee both lynches went through, but if he wanted to accomplish that purpose, I think he would be giving more reasons why he believe Pine's claim as opposed to listing out the consequences.

I can't really comment on FT, considering the case of FT is mostly a lack of presence and I haven't read up on FT as much as I would have liked to.

[All is Who]

I'm going to preface this by saying that someone has inspired me to begin with my gimmick again. Well done.

my faulty memory interfered

But I thought you were perfect. My heart, she breaks.

New idea.

Unvote, vote Victor

Four, gogo.

I was just thinking Victor was scum via process of elimination, so yea I'm down for that.

Vote: Victor

This is pretty bad. Like, maybe the worst thing all game. I've come to expect dumb wagonhopping from ABR, but tell me, 4Tuppence, why Victor is the best lynch here. Exactly why do you believe he is scum? What will his scumflip tell you? Was there anything going through your head when you voted him other than "God, I hope I'm not lynched today."?

VOTE: FourTroubles

L-1.

~BROseidon

[All is Who]

Also, the attempts at us, Andy, and SG are pretty funny.

~BlueBloodedToffee

[PeregrineV]

Peregrine, what is your motive for asking me the questions that you did? I'm quite curious.

Those are the major sources of my reads on those slots, such as they are.

I also didn't pick up your responses to those situations, so you pointing them out is what I needed. I can't see town ignoring them.

[PeregrineV]

Unvote.

[FourTrouble]

I've come to expect dumb wagonhopping from ABR, but tell me, 4Tuppence, why Victor is the best lynch here. Exactly why do you believe he is scum? What will his scumflip tell you? Was there anything going through your head when you voted him other than "God, I hope I'm not lynched today."?

Yes, there was more to the vote than hoping I'm not lynched (though obviously that's a factor). Victor is probably scum based on process of elimination. I also disagree with Nacho that it's a "lazy" lynch. For me, it's based on townreads which weren't lazy at all. And Victor's "scumflip" would tell us quite a lot, in terms how/when people vote for Victor, especially in relation to the wagon on me, or potential counter-wagons on others. We don't need Victor's reads for that sort of information, and ultimately that's the kind of information I'm interested in.