Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Jackal711]

VOTE COUNT 1.3

killapenwin (0) -
BlueBloodedToffee (0) -
eyestott (0) -
Heartless (1) - davesaz

L-2

davesaz (5) - Mastin2, Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, eyestott, copper223
copper223 (1) - Heartless
vettrock (0) -
Aneninen (0) -
dodgy56 (1) - vettrock
Wickedestjr (1) - beastcharizard
beastcharizard (0) -
Tean Samargo (2) - killapenwin, Aneninen
mastin2 (1) - BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting: dodgy56

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

V/LA: wickedestjr (thru Jan 11th), Heartless

Day 1 deadline is Monday, January 19th at 2:00 pm PST which is in (expired on 2015-01-19 14:00:00)

[davesaz]

@Dav
There's only 4 people in your reads list, where's the rest? It sort of feels like a filler from where I'm sitting.

I commented later on the disparity between this post criticizing my reads list and the lack of comments about other players who have even fewer reads. My comment quoted Mastin's "second scumread" post, and there were a couple of follow up questions about that, but still nothing about the general lack of reads from several others.

Why are so many people getting a free pass on not providing reads?

Mastin -- null, need input.

Aneninen -- null, insufficient content

Dodgy -- null->town, curiosity seems genuine, trying to determine alignment in 167

Wickedestjr -- lean town gut

copper's 158 is mixed. The vote is sheep, I like the logic on killapenwin, agree that Vettrock needs to be watched, but don't get calling beast town with so little content. Seems a bit thrown together.

Note: the following was a response directly to Tean's post quoted above

TBH I never have reads on every player to begin with. A lot of the unmentioned have posted nothing beyond RVS.

Maybe I’m missing something, but what prompted you to post ‘reads’ on those five players specifically if you only actually have reads on two of them? Filler?

So Wicked quotes my reads list, skips Tean Samargo's comment about it, quotes my response to TS which explains why the list is a short one, and then calls the reads list filler.

Anyone think this is strange?

[Wickedestjr]

Phone post

You've misinterpreted my question. I wasn't questioning you for the shortness of the reads list (OBVIOUSLY there are players who have provided even less than you have). I am fine with that. I was questioning your inclusion of the null reads in your reads post. Why did you specifically include mastin and Anen in your reads list (as opposed to... say... eye and beast) when you literally had nothing interesting to say about them? E.g. Did I miss a post where someone asked you for your reads on those players? If you weren't going to post a reads list for all the players then why did you specifically include just those few null reads (because I assume you also null read all the players not mentioned). I was wondering if the unhelpful null reads we're added simply for filler. Does that make sense?

[eyestott]

Eyestott – I don't understand why he jumped on the wagon in 211. May be scum, but he's not the most possible one.

3) eyestott - (null leaning scum) I don't feel I can be impartial given that we have already butted heads a little but I think his actions rather than his posts have been poor such as jumping on bandwagons as placeholder votes, which at such an early stage I don't think is very good.

@eyestott
I find your vote on dav as rather opportunistic. I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly. Right now it feels as if you are sheeping the biggest bandwagon.

I gave reasons for my vote. Why can't I give reasons and vote on my top scumread without it being "sheeping" simply because of how many other people are voting him for different reasons?

so you are absent from the thread for 48 hours and when you come back this is your only contribution? a meaningless piece of drivel?

like seriously?

if you are town lift you game because at the moment you arent helping anyone. all you are doing is making it easier for scum to lurk.

How do you know I'm not scum lurking?

VOTE: Dodgy

Wow.

What is your reason/purpose for saying this? For the record, I think we will be in conventional scum hunting phase for at least two game days, depending on the number of Ts.

Why are you making this assumption? While you could be right, there is no evidence for your assumption and at least one other reason why mastin wouldn't want to out her reads yet. I don't like this: feels like you're too quick to defend mastin here.

1: So it wouldnt be a surprise when I start switching from conventionally scumhunting during the early game to role-based scumhunting in the late game.
2: I couldnt think of another rule that could apply.

1: That’s an odd thing for you to be concerned about now.
2: If you made that assumption “because you couldn’t think of another motive”, then why did you also say;

I'm not backing down f m anything. If mastin gives good reasons for the post, good. But if her reasons suck, it's where I'll vote.

I wasn't "certain" of her motive.

? Seems contradictory. Why make an assumption about mastin if you weren't certain to begin with?

1: Well, I am an odd person XD
2: I couldnt think of one, but that doesnt mean that I didnt think there might be one. I'm not certain of anything, except my role.

- Being nice is hardly alignment indicative. I mean, sure, scum do it. But town do it to, especially when theyre legitimately just trying to be nice. My niceness in mafia stems from an aversion to conflict.
- After Penwins post, ive changed my read on him, but do you not like the mini wagon because you think Penwin is town, or because you think the reasons are bad?

- I can respect that. But I am somewhat hesitant to take your word for it, because I’ve never played with you before. If you could provide an example of you exhibiting similar behavior as town, then I’d probably drop this point.
- It’s a combination of the two, but mostly because I think Penwin is town. Also, I think he’s an easier target given his lack of experience.

Spoiler: niceness

Also, I feel I need to say this:
@Mastin2: You are putting an absolutely astounding amount of effort into this game. I tip my hat off to you.

<<< Don't thank me yet! Last game I modded had a similar strong start, yet absolutely crashed at the end. (I have an unhealthy obsession with perfection in mafia games and devote way too much time to tasks.)

Thank me when the game's over!

(Well, assuming you don't hate me by then, that is... )

>>>

<<< The best part of the image is the flexibility behind the meaning of the words. There are at least three different ways that could be read:
"I must move with great speed",
"I must go without eating",
And, "*gripping nether-regions* I gotta GO. Fast!"

Now tell me, which do you think a hydra-slipping Sonic is? >>>

I legit laughed for half a minute.
Thank you so much, mastin.
It would have to be number one though.

Hey, Bulba! Happy 2 years!

This is not a leading question, ika. Thanks for answering.
I think the reason people thought/think I'm scum is because I have a very unrealistic role.

It's something I do as town and scum in games where I dont know most of the players, I guess. These ones all came from town-me.

As an IC, what reasons could a player have for not giving any reasons for opinions?

Well, to be honest it's mainly a playstyle thing in that I generally don't like giving reasons anyway.

But to give a better answer, I've found that giving delayed reasoning can be a very effective teaching tool. In essence, it can get people to basically go, "Okay, she said that...

why

did she say that? What makes her think that? What's she seeing?" Basically, it forced you to think.

You have my word that I've got no need to fake reasoning, as either alignment. Meaning, I have no need to leech off of you guessing why I have done what I have done. I might augment my own by using others, because using the words of others frequently helps explain my concept more effectively than my words alone would, yet I'd always have those words of mine there.

So short version short, I hold back on reasons so that you can become stronger players. (And because I'm a slacker. )

Great, thanks for that!

i

might not be

COMPLETELY sober

but i am serious

I laughed out loud at this.
What evidence do you have that Mastin2 is scum?

Scum me.

Point 2 and Point 3 really look like theyre coming from a town mindset.
I can see why he though my vote was bad, as it put him in the lead, and had little reasoning even though I dont think he realised

it was a predominantly RVS vote

.
I also liked his point where he says that he wants to use it wisely and that just OMGUSing is not what he wanted to do.

This feels like a slight backpedal (possibly to help justify your vote switch). Rereading your post 67, nothing about it feels jokey, you pointed out a contradiction and voted.

Not a backpedal, Ive said before that my vote was only slightly serious, and this was before switching.

2: We were barely out of RVS at that time. My vote was only slightly serious

[davesaz]

Phone post

You've misinterpreted my question. I wasn't questioning you for the shortness of the reads list (OBVIOUSLY there are players who have provided even less than you have). I am fine with that. I was questioning your inclusion of the null reads in your reads post. Why did you specifically include mastin and Anen in your reads list (as opposed to... say... eye and beast) when you literally had nothing interesting to say about them? E.g. Did I miss a post where someone asked you for your reads on those players? If you weren't going to post a reads list for all the players then why did you specifically include just those few null reads (because I assume you also null read all the players not mentioned). I was wondering if the unhelpful null reads we're added simply for filler. Does that make sense?

Well, the point of my bringing up that post was that you asked if it was "filler" and quoted the post right after TS also mentioned "filler", but without noting that.

I make a distinction between someone I've tried to read and came up null, vs one I haven't even attempted. The players not listed in that post were ones who don't even warrant a "null" mention because I literally had no opinion whatsoever on them.

[copper223]

@Dave
Why did you attempt to read only the players on your wagon?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Catching up of this game today.

Or sure.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

EBWOP - For Sure*

[mastin2]

I'm curious, do you see differences in the way I am playing (that make you town read me

this

time)? Or has your perception of my meta simply changed? I’ll admit I’m glad that you town read me but it also makes me a little bit paranoid, because you usually don’t.

Heck if I know. You think

you're

paranoid about it, just try being ME with it. If I had to guess, perception, but I really have no clue.

I am suspicious of dave, eye, beast, and Tean.

No comment on Tean, but I'll tip my hand slightly further and tell you beast's town.

[mastin2]

lolmastin you suck at being coy. i know you mean me b/c of the glacially slow start.

Goddammit. I thought I was careful. Like, I really, really tried to avoid any glaringly obvious hints. But yes, it's you, and yes, it's for the inactivity. Of not just one head, but both--I was waiting for you to do stuff and town it up, but your hydra's business and also you being aware of it basically ruins it.

Still, though. Please find a way to town it up?

[copper223]

@Mastin
Hearthless may be scum but not because of inactivity as that is likely not alignment indicative in this case.

[killapenwin]

so you are absent from the thread for 48 hours and when you come back this is your only contribution? a meaningless piece of drivel?

like seriously?

if you are town lift you game because at the moment you arent helping anyone. all you are doing is making it easier for scum to lurk.

How do you know I'm not scum lurking?

VOTE: Dodgy

I didn't miss this, BBT is inactive for the first few days and as soon as his name is mentioned he OMGUS votes Dodgy and only 2minutes after Dodgy criticism him?? It is not as though he wasn't aware the game had started, he has just given the impression that he has been lurking without contributing. Whilst lurking is not necessarily scum indicative, I feel that if he were town he would have contributed on at least one of the many posts or arguments that have happened so far. At nearly 300 posts in and only this to show for himself I am changing my read on him from null to probable scum.

[killapenwin]

@eyestott it is because your votes so far have just followed Tean's, which looks a bit sheepish. Also, Tean has only voted on players that have been voted on already so either him or you (maybe both) are trying to create bandwagons or give them some momentum in my opinion.

As Aneninen said, it is odd that Tean would call you out for sheeping when he himself is being a catalyst for bandwagons.

[davesaz]

@Dave
Why did you attempt to read only the players on your wagon?

Who happen to be the only active players. I can't read inactive ones.

[copper223]

Who happen to be the only active players. I can't read inactive ones.

clearly Aneninen was chosen because of his activity level, the fact your read on him is null because you are waiting for content doesn't raise an eyebrow, right...

[beastcharizard]

Am I the only one that thinks beast might be scum?

Yes. How am I scummy again?

[copper223]

Is this guy always like this?

[davesaz]

Am I the only one that thinks beast might be scum?

Yes. How am I scummy again?

Let's start with being around often enough to post when you're mentioned, but failing to put effort into scum hunting.

VOTE: beastcharizard

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Going to do this catch-up in chunks. Bare with me.

Everything before the game start post is not game relevant so I don't see why you are trying to use it as such. That is like saying someone is scum because they posted in the sign-up thread at a specific time of the day in a specific spot on the player list. The game hasn't even started and you are deciding who is scum in what seems to be a serious way.

VOTE: Wicked

Can you elaborate on this please BC? How exactly does this reasoning make Wicked scum?

92 - Dodgy, I'm glad you picked up on this (Eyestott's buddying) because I was thinking the exact same thing. Certainly worth keeping an eye on. I have also thought of other potential motivations behind it but I'm going to keep them hidden for now.

93 - Tean, this post gives me good town feelings. I like your logic and thought process (even though I disagree with the conclusion that Killa is scum because of it.)

Can you elaborate on why Killa being defensive equals scum?

ok im going to get the ball started here. i havent played in this set up before. what are peoples thoughts on the mechanics of this game? or how are you planning on approaching this game?

Wow, this is scummy as fuck.

Translation - 'Hey, can you all tell me how you're planning on approaching this game and then myself and my scum-team can adjust our game plan accordingly.'

[beastcharizard]

Is this guy always like this?

Sometimes I am sometimes I am not. It depends on my schedule and my mood.

Am I the only one that thinks beast might be scum?

Yes. How am I scummy again?

Let's start with being around often enough to post when you're mentioned, but failing to put effort into scum hunting.

VOTE: beastcharizard

Oh, hi Wicked. Oh wait you aren't Wicked.

Also, school just started and I have class after I work so I don't get home until 9 or later half the week so I didn't have much energy to do anything this last week.

@BBT:

It felt like they were just making shit up for the sake of a scum read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

121 - Mastin, I haven't seen you elaborate on this yet. Can you do so?

If you already have later in the thread, obviously disregard that question.

Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

This looks like 'Give me a reason to vote Dave.' Don't like it.

136 - Really interested in who this is.

@Mod - Can you get confirmation of whose account that is please?

143 - Killa, this post looks like you're voting Tean based on personality/play-style as opposed to voting him for reasons as to why he is scum. Would that be a correct assumption?

Also, want to address a couple of your points. Your first point is actually the opposite, usually, whoever gets wagoned early does not end up being the lynch.

Putting a lot of votes out early is also very good for town. It forces scum to 'choose a side' and is very good for late game analysis. I am a big advocate of pushing wagons to L-1 early game.

145 - @Killa, whilst I do not think defensiveness = scumminess, this

type

of defensiveness is scummy. You're very aware of where votes were being placed and that you were the leading wagon.

there's definiteyl something weird going on in the mastin-eyestott-dave interaction.

Yeah, elaborate on this?

[vettrock]

It's something I do as town and scum in games where I dont know most of the players, I guess. These ones all came from town-me.

...

Scum me.
...

Pulling your own meta, and showing you do things as scum as town, Especially to the point of pulling scum quote and town quotes, seems to be a little too focused ond manipulating and tracking their own meta. I would say slightly scummy, but more it mean you doing any kind of meta on eyestott is worthless as he is actively manipulating it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

158 - Reasons for voting Dave, Copper? Also, why is there no mention of eyestott or dodgy in your reads-list?

159 - Wicked, how exactly is 'paying close attention to what's going on' a town-tell? I have noticed you used the same reasoning (Dave not paying attention) for Dave!Scum. Expand on this please.

What do you think of my thoughts on dodgy so far?

166 - @dodgy, I knew you were posturing to get on the Dave wagon in 122. Fucking knew it.

Reasons for vote?

As a side note, I didn't know Tean was a hydra. Can they start sigging their posts so I know who it is posting?

[copper223]

@BBT
Dave reactions to Mastin's scumread, she is not serious -> she has nothing -> she is reaction testing, seem contradictory and scummy. I was/still am making up my mind on those two.

@Wicked
Don't you think it's strange for Scum_Dave to antagonize players like Beast or Vettrock, currently not voting for him?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

177 - This is THE worst reads-list I have ever seen. You might as well have posted 'I got no reads, everyone is null'.

Why did you choose those people to present reads on? I use 'reads' very, very loosely as well.

183 - Dave, this is simply not true. You failed to mention eyestott, Killa, Tean or beast and I would argue that they had all contributed more than Anen who you decided to include in your reads-list.

189 - I like this. Tean is town.

198 - Dave, here you lump Heartless, Anen, BC and myself into a group with the label 'nothing substantial.' If that's the case, why was Anen the only plyer you chose to include in your previous reads-list?

Your reads feel forced and disingenuous. There is no consistency and it's almost like you're avoiding providing reads on the more active players.

Unless something fairly substantial happens over the next few pages, this is where my vote is going.