—Mini 1635— Curse of the Werewolves: Game Over

[FourTrouble]

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Skip to Next Vote Count

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Again, the pattern of asking X about Y over and over feels very canned and "this is my alt that can only ask X about Y over and over." Like it's almost policy lynch level for me. I find it like ideologically abhorrent. It makes it really hard for me to give you any kind of benefit of the doubt.

First, I haven't only asked X about Y; I've also given my reads, voted, and answered any questions folks have about my reads or votes. Second, there's nothing wrong with asking X about Y; it helps me scumhunt. Third, I do it as town more than scum, so it's a terrible reason to vote me. Also, it's not "canned." Each question had context (e.g. asking far about Who came after Who's shitty case on ABR, and I wanted to know if there was something towny about them that I was missing).

[FourTrouble]

Andrius, Pere's unvote was towny because of when he unvoted (right after Who put me at L-1). I think scum are more likely to leave their votes alone in that situation because there's always a potential hammer; there's no reason for scum to move their vote.

[FourTrouble]

Iece, where are you on Andrius?

[Iecerint]

Iece, what're your thoughts on Flames?

Pine, why do you suspect Iece?

Andrius, Pere's unvote was towny because of when he unvoted (right after Who put me at L-1). I think scum are more likely to leave their votes alone in that situation because there's always a potential hammer; there's no reason for scum to move their vote.

This makes sense.

[Iecerint]

Oops, I meant that the last one made sense.

I was going to make a sassy post where I listed all your "X what about Y" posts, but I decided it was childish and I stopped. And yeah it's true that you do other stuff, you've just directed it at me more than once.

I think Andy is town I guess. He's a real butthole if he's scum pulling this LYNCH ME AND YOU'LL NEVER SEE ME AGAIN YOU'D BETTER NOT LYNCH ME WHILE YOU HAVE ME routine, though.

[FourTrouble]

Iece, you're not the first to notice the questions. Take a look this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5787387. It's not a scum-tell for me, so please stop voting me on that basis.

[Iecerint]

It's not that I'm voting you ON that basis. It's that when I'm in a position where I think you COULD be scum and I don't really think anyone else is more likely to be scum in particular, I don't feel as motivated to work really hard and convince myself that it's worth shifting a wagon onto someone like Gilgamesh, or, uh, ABR I guess, or Who. I don't even know who I'd shift it to.

Consider it more like "these are factors that I recognize are coloring my attitude" rather than "these are why people should vote for FT."

[Iecerint]

I will say that Gilgamesh's behavior on the last page comes AWFULLY CLOSE to making me want to vote him and see what happens. I'd probably do it were it not that I don't think it would go anywhere because so many people thought he was town for some reason. And it's Flames's slot IIRC. <_<

[FourTrouble]

Gilgamesh is probably town. His reads have a lot of depth that's hard to fake as scum.

[FourTrouble]

Voting me just because I "could" be scum is no better than a random vote. Better to have joined the Victor wagon.

[FourTrouble]

I'm going to preface this by saying that someone has inspired me to begin with my gimmick again. Well done.

my faulty memory interfered

But I thought you were perfect. My heart, she breaks.

New idea.

Unvote, vote Victor

Four, gogo.

I was just thinking Victor was scum via process of elimination, so yea I'm down for that.

Vote: Victor

This is pretty bad. Like, maybe the worst thing all game. I've come to expect dumb wagonhopping from ABR, but tell me, 4Tuppence, why Victor is the best lynch here. Exactly why do you believe he is scum? What will his scumflip tell you? Was there anything going through your head when you voted him other than "God, I hope I'm not lynched today."?

VOTE: FourTroubles

L-1.

~BROseidon

Iece, take a look at this vote. Who puts me at L-1 for voting Victor. How is this not raising more red flags?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I got up to page 11 earlier but literally found nothing of note. Going from 12 to...

Spoiler:

Looking over the stuff with the Daycop claim, I get the feeling that Pine and ABR are town and Andrius dismissal seems scummier.

332 is pretty terrible from Who. He surely must have worked out the IC claim was false. The "I could vote ABR" feels forced as well.

333 - Ice - I can see scum!Ice trying to set up distant if ABR scum, and this seems so derpy that I wouldn't mind seeing a flip from either today. It's unlikely this comes from scum!Ice if ABR is town though.

342 - ABR - OK, this after this u-turn I'm back suspected ABR and I could really see ABR and Ice as buddies.

343 - Ice - Sounds kinda coachy from Ice to ABR as well.

350 - Andrius - In the same post he goes on at length for the gambit being so obv!false it was useless he also says that it got a suspicious reaction off Ice.

359 - ABR - After no one jumps on his Pine vote ABR decides that the gambit was townie after all.

370 - ABR - Well look at that, given the choice between an Ice, an equal sized Andrius wagon or trying to push Konowa, ABR moves to Andrius.

I'm up to page 19 and still haven't seen anything off fourtrouble that makes me want to lynch him. He's pushing Andrius, but I have seen some scummy play from Andrius so I can't really fault him for that. That said I don't think Andrius is scum with Ice + ABR and right now they are my top two scumreads at this point, and neither have any votes.

[Andrius]

Voting me just because I "could" be scum is no better than a random vote. Better to have joined the Victor wagon.

You're not making logical sense.
You have presented no definite proof that he IS scum, so you're voting him because you think he MAY BE scum. You cannot know for certain. Unless of course you ARE scum and thus know who the scum are. Does that make sense?
At this point we should all be voting who we believe is most likely scum, because we (read: members of the un-informed majority (town)) cannot know who is scum.

All I am getting from you is 'please don't lynch me' with little town-motivation for your actions.

predit: Will address Victor soon.

[Andrius]

I got up to page 11 earlier but literally found nothing of note.

Not this again.
How do people go 10+ pages into a game and not have reads/things of importance?

Victor, I would be perfectly satisfied with a list of reads and a little blurb of WHY.

Andrius dismissal seems scummier

Why?

Because exposing lies is scummy? Because exposing gambits is scummy?

[FourTrouble]

Andrius, there's a difference between what's "probable" and what's "possible." I voted Victor because I believed (this might change as he's catching up) him probably scum via process of elimination and a weak, unoriginal catch-up post earlier in the game. I'm voting Who because I believe they're probably scum, based on their terrible ABR case, their terrible vote on me, and their generally superficial analysis of the game. Iece is voting me because he thinks I "could" be scum, which is the same as saying it's "possible" I'm scum. There's no "probability" analysis involved there, so it's no better than a random vote.

[Andrius]

Day 1 deadline is (expired on 2015-01-12 17:00:00)

SCRAMBLE THE FIGHTERS



predit: I think you're being a bit too wordy with probable and possible. Like you picked out my "still town" comment earlier.

[FourTrouble]

Andrius, mislynching is bad for the Town, so trying to stay alive is town-motivated. Also, that's not the "only" thing I'm doing; I'm also trying to find the scum. I understand you think that's just part of my defense-tactic (and of course building a viable counter-wagon is part of my defense) but I'm also doing it to find the scum and win the game.

[Iecerint]

Joining a lurker lynch subsequent to ABR starting it for unclear reasons is pretty scummy, so I do not really blame someone for voting you subsequent to that. I do agree with your analysis that PereV's subsequent unvote is townie if you are town, though.

Town people always vote people without knowing their alignment. That is what it means to be town.

[Andrius]

Town people always vote people without knowing their alignment. That is what it means to be town.

This is what I tried to say above, in less words. ._.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Not this again.
How do people go 10+ pages into a game and not have reads/things of importance?

Andrius, you might want to try reading my post again without skimming. I actually did include some reads if

look very carefully

actually just read the damn thing.

Andrius dismissal seems scummier

Why?

Because exposing lies is scummy? Because exposing gambits is scummy?

I'm curious Andrius, do you have a no-lie policy?

Anyway, I'm not going to say anything that hasn't already been said to you but here goes nothing. The gambit was designed for reactions. Even so I've seen this sort of play come from town more than scum and sometimes the reactions can be valuable. There wasn't many reactions here though because you stopped it quickly. I doubt Pine was planning on us spending the whole game thinking he was some sort of 2-shot suicide cop so I don't see why exposing a gambit like this isn't scummy. Is there a town benefit to your actions I'm missing?

[Shadowmod]

—VOTE COUNT—

farside22

(0/7) —

Pine

,

Andrius

,

Nachomamma8

,

Konowa

Southern Gothic

(1/7)

—

Nachomamma8

,

FourTrouble

,

Albert B. Rampage

,

Gilgamesh King Of Heroes

Iecerint

(0/7) —

Flames682

,

All is Who

,

Pine

,

Albert B. Rampage

FourTrouble

(5/7)

—

farside22

,

Andrius, Southern Gothic,

PeregrineV

,

Iecerint, Pine, All is Who

Pine

(0/7) —

Iecerint

,

Albert B. Rampage

,

Albert B. Rampage

Albert B. Rampage

(0/7) —

Pine

,

Nachomamma8

,

Konowa

,

All is Who

Titus

Konowa

(0/7) —

farside22

,

Southern Gothic

,

Albert B. Rampage

Andrius

(1/7)

—

FourTrouble

,

Iecerint

,

farside22,

Albert B. Rampage

,

Albert B. Rampage

,

All is Who

(2/7)

—

Albert B. Rampage

,

FourTrouble, Nachomamma8

VictorDeAngelo

(1/7)

— Albert B. Rampage,

FourTrouble

Not Voting (3/13): VictorDeAngelo, Titus, PeregrineV

With 13 players still alive, 7 votes are required for a lynch, 7 to force no lynch.

Day 1 deadline is (expired on 2015-01-12 17:00:00)

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—Announcement—

Some pre-deadline prods sent out.

[FourTrouble]

I don't understand where we disagree or where the misunderstanding is happening. Everyone "could" be scum; not everyone is "probably" scum. Town shouldn't lynch randomly; they should lynch "probably" scum. So voting me because I "could" be scum is a problem.

[FourTrouble]

Just because town are uninformed doesn't mean they should vote randomly; they can still analyze tone, behaviors, results, setup, etc. to vote with better than random chances.

[Iecerint]

Not this again.
How do people go 10+ pages into a game and not have reads/things of importance?

Andrius, you might want to try reading my post again without skimming. I actually did include some reads if

look very carefully

actually just read the damn thing.

Andrius dismissal seems scummier

Why?

Because exposing lies is scummy? Because exposing gambits is scummy?

I'm curious Andrius, do you have a no-lie policy?

Anyway, I'm not going to say anything that hasn't already been said to you but here goes nothing. The gambit was designed for reactions. Even so I've seen this sort of play come from town more than scum and sometimes the reactions can be valuable. There wasn't many reactions here though because you stopped it quickly. I doubt Pine was planning on us spending the whole game thinking he was some sort of 2-shot suicide cop so I don't see why exposing a gambit like this isn't scummy. Is there a town benefit to your actions I'm missing?

There was actually a pretty long time-lag between it starting and Andy doing that FWIW. People seemed to totally avoid the thread. I felt like ABR and I were the only ones here. But it was around New Year's IIRC.

[Iecerint]

Just because town are uninformed doesn't mean they should vote randomly; they can still analyze tone, behaviors, results, setup, etc. to vote with better than random chances.

You are going on an adventure with the semantics of "could," then. My vote for you is different than a random vote.